Jamie 0:00

You know who you sound like.

Rebecca 0:01

Alyssa.

Jamie 0:02

hate this. No, I was gonna say, you sound like Dave Ramsey. 'cause that's like Dave Ramsey's whole thing. I'm

Rebecca 0:07

fuck you. Fuck you. That's the meanest. I honestly, I think that's the meanest fucking thing you have ever said to me in this friendship. I

Jamie 0:13

Hangs up. Hangs up. Podcast is over you guys.

0:19

I am Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

Jamie 0:27

Hey guys, in a couple weeks we're happy to be back. We, we're trying to figure out what we wanted to cover this week and something that's just been top of mind, I'm sure for everybody lately and always. we wanted to talk about money and debt and

Rebecca 0:48

Yep.

Jamie 0:48

eat the

Rebecca 0:49

dear to our hearts. Eat the Rich.

Jamie 0:51

how to eat the rich.

Rebecca 0:53

Yeah.

Jamie 0:54

Oh my god. Wait, can I take a moment? I don't know if we can fit this in, but I think, did I tell you about jury duty?

Rebecca 1:00

No. You have jury duty. Actually, we should fit this in. This is great. I love

Jamie 1:04

It is a good story, I have to say. Okay, so I've only gotten called for jury duty twice. This is the only, only the second time.. So I actually had to go in, which sucked because I just got back from Vegas and a weekend of taking care of my niece and nephew and then immediately had to go in at 8:00 AM to the courthouse. First of all, I got the good courthouse, okay. I didn't get the downtown courthouse. I got the Santa Monica courthouse and it's almost like luxury up in this

Rebecca 1:37

is that where all like the white collar crimes are like embezzlement and.

Jamie 1:42

Meanwhile I am like, it better be fucking murder. That's what I want. and then I was like, I'm probably gonna kick myself for saying that later, but it's fine. whatever, waiting in the room and they finally call us down to go to the court for jury selection. There's like 40 of us. So like half of us sat in the jury boxes, felt like I was on law and order. I sat right behind this stenographer and was like chatting her up afterwards and making everybody uncomfortable. I was like, damn girl. I was like, you make that look fun. And she was like, ha, thanks. And I was like, how'd you even get into this? And she's kinda looking at the judge like, is this okay? Is this okay that Mr. Juror is talking to me?

Rebecca 2:20

Wait, were you really?

Jamie 2:22

Yes.

Rebecca 2:23

Were you, were you high? what

Jamie 2:25

No, I dunno how to act in public. I have never been in a court. I don't know how to act.

Rebecca 2:32

I didn't know you could talk. I, I mean, I didn't know you could

Jamie 2:34

listen, if you're shocked at that, you were gonna be like, Jamie, you idiot. What are you doing? so they're asking us all these questions. They tell us a little bit about the trial, basically it was just, a man suing a car dealership, because he bought a pre-owned vehicle. Drove it for like 10,000 miles or something and then something ha was wrong with it and then said, this must have been wrong with it. When they sold it to me, they didn't disclose, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you had, you know, the guys, two attorneys there and then the two attorneys for the dealership. And so they're asking basic questions. They ask about like. if anyone had, has had a bad experience, buying a car at a dealership, and I didn't necessarily have a bad experience, but I just had a weird experience that, that it was like kind of bad. It ended bad. they upsold me. Okay. They upsold me a package in Ohio before I moved to la.

Rebecca 3:34

I love that you just launched this story and the judge is like, ma'am, ma'am. And you're just like, listen,

Jamie 3:39

no, they're asking this, basically, they just go by a show of hands who, have you done jury selection?

Rebecca 3:45

I have, I just think it's very funny that you're like, okay, so it wasn't bad, but it was kind of weird. It was when I

Jamie 3:50

wanna know how I raised my hand? I raised my hand like this. I was like, what?

Rebecca 3:54

maybe.

Jamie 3:55

Kind of you are gonna die. So I tell 'em the story and I end it with, so basically they fucked me, and then the judge goes. I don't think that's a technical term for it, Ms. Young, but thank you. The judge was really cool, actually. The, I was, I liked the judge.

Rebecca 4:11

is not like other judges. He's the cool

Jamie 4:13

we had a rapport. Okay. Anyway, so that's the first thing I did is I said fucked in court and the guy's attorneys were right next to me too, and they were like, this bitch doesn't know how to be around people. when was the last time you left your house, lady? Seriously, ever since COVID, I don't know how to act in public and I have no filter.

Rebecca 4:32

Absolutely feral.

Jamie 4:34

So the dealership starts asking more questions and they were like, does anyone think poorly of car salesman or something like that. And it's like, of course, like everybody you know, and so Everybody like basically raises their hand and the lawyer goes, okay, a few of you. And the judge immediately says A little more than a few, I'd say, because it's like everyone.

Rebecca 4:57

all.

Jamie 4:58

Yeah. Yeah. and then everyone laughs, right? So they we're like, ha. they were like, besides I guess just like the stereotypical car salesman are like, schemy, conniving, you know, whatever. does anyone like, have more like to elaborate? And, I was like, well, I kind of do. 'cause I was thinking like what I do, and I've written about like dealerships. So I was telling them this, I was like, Hey, yeah, like I said, I was in content, like this is what I do. and so I was just talking and it just came out. I was like, I know just how predatory like dealership loans can be on people. And then immediately in my head I go, you just said predatory. You just said predatory. That's probably not good. And he's trying to understand 'cause he is not quite getting exactly what I do. And so I was like, well, I write and edit articles about auto looms and I've written a lot of articles about, dealerships, and whatever. And he's still trying to understand. So he like presses me more and he's like, can you give me an example of one of these articles.

Rebecca 5:56

Oh, Jesus Christ.

Jamie 5:57

I don't pause by the way. There's no pause. I just blurred out, um, like seven reasons why you should never get a loan from a car dealership. It's not until everyone laughs that I realize what I just said and they were like, okay. And then I think I also started like mumbling something about capitalism, like under my breath.

Rebecca 6:21

Oh, Jamie,

Jamie 6:22

And so, you know, we went to lunch, we came back from lunch. the judge dismisses two people and then goes to the lawyers

Rebecca 6:32

them?

Jamie 6:33

and I'm sorry, the judge dismisses one person, the. The prosecution dismisses one and then the defense's first dismiss is, yeah, girl

Rebecca 6:44

Shocking. Shocking.

Jamie 6:47

I was like, really like me?

Rebecca 6:51

Was it the predatory that threw him off or was it the wonder what it could

Jamie 6:58

ramblings about just general capitalism and damn the man. Yeah. And I didn't mean to, 'cause I was having a gay old time, like it was great.

Rebecca 7:09

you know what, I'm sure the judge, I'm sure that was the judge's like favorite day that day. I'm sure. He was like, I had a really good day at work.

Jamie 7:15

Yeah. He went home to his wife and was like, babe, I gotta tell you about this fucking potential juror. oh my God.

Rebecca 7:23

Oh my God. Oh shit. Just, oh fuck.

Jamie 7:28

Yeah.

Rebecca 7:29

So you didn't get to do your civic duty? I.

Jamie 7:31

Oh no. I did my civic duty. I was thinking about it later and I was like, is my, is my personality just like wherever I go, like it's like my stage to be sarcastic and funny.

Rebecca 7:45

Wherever you go, there you are. That is your personal,

Jamie 7:48

Because I'm like, that's like what I like about therapy is like I'm there to tell jokes that my therapist laughs at, so

Rebecca 7:54

yeah,

Jamie 7:55

I'm there to make my therapist

Rebecca 7:56

is my hour for standup. what

Jamie 7:58

When do you think the last time that judge laughed was come on, when do you think the last time someone said fucked? in his court, right next to him.

Rebecca 8:05

the stenographer was like.

Jamie 8:06

I actually didn't even look at her during those times. I wish I would have, because I think it was even after that, I think it was when we were being dismissed for lunch. So after all that happened right away I was like, oh, hey. By the way, that's why I, when she was looking at the judge, she's like, I don't also,

Rebecca 8:23

can she tell me I'm a good typer? Is she allowed?

Jamie 8:26

I wonder if I can call the court and get the transcript. That would be cool. Frame it.

Rebecca 8:32

You should. I just want you to be able to put fucked from the transcript on your refrigerator, just

Jamie 8:38

And then like with like juror

Rebecca 8:40

mm-hmm.

Jamie 8:41

like, so they fucked me. Judge. I don't think that's the technical term, but thank you Ms. Young.

Rebecca 8:49

That.

Jamie 8:49

It's just like in the moment I wasn't like, I'm being funny. I was just like being

Rebecca 8:55

No, I mean, it, it was a valid, it was a valid, conflict of interest. Oh, Jesus. That's so great.

Jamie 9:02

so money. How do we tie this to money?

Rebecca 9:05

How do we tie this to my, this guy got fucked over on alone and most of people our age have predatory student loans from people who decide that they should give literal children loans.

Jamie 9:16

Oh yeah. Oh

Rebecca 9:18

Does that work?

Jamie 9:19

Yeah. No, that's actually perfect. Good

Rebecca 9:22

I did it.

Jamie 9:22

you're a wizard. She's a witch. yeah, man, I re I remember I was just like, oh, free money. Like when I was a kid I was like, yeah, I love this. And I was even older when I went to college, so I wasn't just 18, I was like 20. So I was a little bit older even, but I was still a child.

Rebecca 9:41

Yeah, your frontal lobe. If your frontal lobe is not fully formed, you should not be allowed to borrow money. or no, people shouldn't be allowed to lend money to you.

Jamie 9:49

Yeah.

Rebecca 9:49

I remember being on campus and there would just be credit cards there and you could sign up for credit cards and I'd get a credit card and a fucking t-shirt. Like I had the best credit score out of all my friends 'cause I just signed up for all these credit cards. Then got 'em and threw 'em away. And you got approved. it was crazy.

Jamie 10:05

Yeah, we didn't have that. That I like recall. Yeah, I would hope. I would hope so.

Rebecca 10:12

I.

Jamie 10:12

But

Rebecca 10:13

it wasn't illegal in 2003,

Jamie 10:15

geez, that's awful. Credit cards, I feel like my parents at least did a decent job. What my dad did, which I actually think is brilliant, is. When we all became teenagers, maybe even like when we first, when we all like first got like our first jobs and had some money, my dad made us authorized users on one of the credit cards. So that is helping my credit still because that's still on my credit report. That adds to like the history of my credit. so that was great. That's a great thing to do. I highly recommend that if you're responsible and your child can be responsible, there were some times where I was like, dad, I really needed food. So I did use the credit card, but it was like four emergencies. but my parents did a decent job of stressing you gotta pay off the balance every month. That not, this is not something that you just let sit there. you use it, you pay it off. you have to like, to the point where when I was like so young, yeah, like early twenties. and when I was struggling, my dad would even say, and I'm lucky to have, parents who could do this, but I, my dad would say, you know, we don't, we don't have a lot of money, but if you're struggling so much that you can't pay off your credit card, do not pay. Don't pay that. Don't pay that interest. Come to me and we're, we'll figure something out. So I not, I know not everyone has that. And like, and that's not something like, that's something that needed to be said to me because I would've just paid interest and like fucked myself even more. and sometimes I did. And then eventually I'd be like, dad, he'd be like, why?

Rebecca 11:50

Listen, this is how I knew I shouldn't have access to a credit card again in college. No frontal lobe. I remember going to the mall and like realizing I could buy whatever I wanted. You know, like those big candy stores where they sell bulk candy.

Jamie 12:03

Is that where you went?

Rebecca 12:04

I was like unlimited jelly beans. I was so excited.

Jamie 12:07

God, I love that so much because that's something I would do. I love this. What a Taurus

Rebecca 12:13

was just like, fuck yeah, I'm gonna get 20 pounds of jelly beans. And I put it on my cream.

Jamie 12:18

Oh my God. Wait, what are your favorite jelly belly flavors? Let's talk that quick.

Rebecca 12:22

It was like strawberry toast. Caramel corn. They had the

Jamie 12:26

Strawberry milk

Rebecca 12:27

weird flavors. No, it was like they had strawberry, no, it strawberry jam butter toast. They butter popcorn, which I think they still have,

Jamie 12:33

buttered popcorns my all time. The best.

Rebecca 12:37

unlimited jelly beans. That was my big,

Jamie 12:39

I would've bought like two pounds of buttered popcorn, jelly bellies, and like a pound of Dr. Pepper Jelly bellies.

Rebecca 12:45

Yep. Yep. So that's, again, should not have

Jamie 12:49

So how much did those jelly beans really cost you? What was the

Rebecca 12:53

It's crazy.

Jamie 12:54

on that credit card.

Rebecca 12:56

the very first thing I bought with my credit card in college was a new mattress. When you move outta the dorms and you move into an apartment, I needed a, it was like a double size bed and I didn't have one, so I bought a mattress and that was, it was like a couple hundred dollars, but I was like, that's so

Jamie 13:13

Yeah. That's a

Rebecca 13:13

you know what I mean?

Jamie 13:14

Yeah.

Rebecca 13:15

Yeah. It feels like

Jamie 13:16

Sounds so cheap now though. Shit.

Rebecca 13:18

When I got my first job right outta college, as someone with a unformed frontal lobe, my starting salary was $32,000 a year in 2007. And I was like, that's so I'm gonna be rich. That's so much money.

Jamie 13:33

That's pretty good though for how young you were and the time. that's pretty fucking good,

Rebecca 13:39

I worked retail, like I worked at like Babies R us and like a camera shop all through college. And like the baby gap, so mall jobs where you get like $7 an hour. So 32,000 a year was like

Jamie 13:49

Yeah.

Rebecca 13:51

rolling in dough. That was crazy

Jamie 13:53

my first writing job that turned into editing too, but like how I got like my foot in the door basically, which I'm thankful for, but Oh my God. I, I think the total I made a year, 'cause it was technically like contract work, but I think it was like 27 KI made 27 KA year. But

Rebecca 14:13

Yeah.

Jamie 14:13

I was living with my parents at the time. I had just dropped out of college and had a horrible breakup and had moved back in with my parents and I was like, I need a job. I was applying to so many jobs and then I just kept thinking like, my dream is to be a writer. And so I was just like applying to some writing jobs just to maybe this can just be like supplemental income. And then I made it like three or four rounds to become an Apple genius. Before they told me no and I was sure I was gonna get that job. They told me no. And then I got this writing job and I was like, it's better than nothing. And then I found out just how I think. I think like initially. To write an article, I got paid seven to $10.

Rebecca 14:59

Yeah, that sounds about right.

Jamie 15:01

And that was like, that was way later too. So like my 27 K that I was making was in 2010.

Rebecca 15:10

Yeah. That's when like you would sell your soul for $50 an article and just blab out everything and totally be like, I got 50 an article. It's amazing.

Jamie 15:19

it was, I think this is also in the tech space. So like I, I slowly be like, came to notice that, especially like moving into the personal finance content world. You get paid for your expertise, but in tech. I don't think they think anyone really has expertise. They just think anyone can do it. And I, I haven't seen recently, in recent years, but even like a decade ago, I think I knew some people that were still making peanuts writing for tech. And I was like, whoa. I'm like, we pay our writers. Like at the time I was like, we pay our writers like $350 an article. And they're like, I get 70.

Rebecca 16:01

My friend at the first job I think 10 or 11 years older and she was making 50 a year, and that was my goal. My goal my entire career was like, make $50,000 a year.

Jamie 16:12

Me too.

Rebecca 16:13

I remember hitting that and be like, I've made it

Jamie 16:16

I remember. Going to visit my sibling in LA before I lived here and we both worked for remote companies and I was working at the 27 K place. And I remember having a conversation with them at the time and being like, Ugh, if they would just raise my salary to 50 K or a little above 50 K, like I would work for them forever. I remember saying that, I was like, I would work for them forever, and I would be so happy.

Rebecca 16:47

I know. and it's so funny because you, as a kid you have no fucking concept of money. Like $20 is so much

Jamie 16:53

Yeah.

Rebecca 16:54

okay, I say that with the caveat that we grew up in the eighties and nineties, and I'm sure today $20 is like fucking with the tooth Perry brings. I don't know, but whatever. You have no concept. And then again, no frontal lobe. You still have no concept. I remember my rent for my apartment was $800, like when I moved outta my parents' place after I graduated.

Jamie 17:14

Yeah, I think mine was like eight 50 or seven 50 or something like that in college.

Rebecca 17:19

yeah. And it was just like, you have no con, you have no concept. You have no fucking concept at all. One of the things I remember learning in middle school was how to write a check,

Jamie 17:30

I guess we learned that we didn't really have home ec I, PRI private

Rebecca 17:36

We didn't, but that's all we learned. Like we didn't learn anything else, that, that was it, that we didn't learn. Budgeting it was just here's how you write a check.

Jamie 17:43

I'm trying to remember where I learned to write a check. Like I can't, I don't know. Did they like throw it into math class or something? Probably. I bet that's what they did at my school. 'cause I think it was just like, here's how to write a check. Here's how to write in cursive and those are two things that I'm just like pointless. I think financial literacy starting at a young age, like I do, I think it's so important. And I don't even, I don't even know if they're still, they're doing it now, I guess not.

Rebecca 18:13

No. Are you kidding my child? no. They're not as a, as a mother of a teenager, they're absolutely not. My child has no understanding on costs of things. Like for a while at least, she'd be like, why do you guys have to work full time? And be like, 'cause we're paying off the house. And every week she'd be like, did you guys pay off the house yet?

Jamie 18:30

Oh

Rebecca 18:31

It was like, no. And we're trying to explain like it'll be 30 years. And she was like,

Jamie 18:37

Why? Yeah,

Rebecca 18:38

what do you mean 30

Jamie 18:40

What are you guys wasting your money on? Oh my gosh.

Rebecca 18:44

I know. Did you guys pay the house off? Not this week. Maybe next week. Maybe next week we'll pay the house off.

Jamie 18:49

Next, Rebecca. That's why she keeps asking you. Don't tell her maybe next week. Oh my gosh. But yeah, just like literally a simple, just like budgeting class, like I think it should be like required, I even think, if not middle school, like at least in high school. I think you should, you should be required in college before you take out student loans to go through a fucking course.

Rebecca 19:14

Yeah. But I think the problem with that age though is that's for future me, right? When you're that young a year, a year feels for forever. And so like 21, 20 2-year-old you is so fucking far away and is not a problem.

Jamie 19:27

then we all get this false sense of I'm sure future me is gonna have money. Right?

Rebecca 19:32

Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like I'll be, when I'm an adult, future me will be an adult. I, and they don't have the concept of like, maybe you go back and live with your parents for a while

Jamie 19:41

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Rebecca 19:44

future. You is not doing so hot. Honestly.

Jamie 19:47

Yeah. I've still struggled with credit card debt, like for sure. yeah.

Rebecca 19:51

it's sky money. all right, I'm gonna go on my little rant here. I was listening to a Behind the Bastards podcast on Jeffrey Epstein, and one of the things I learned is that like Jeffrey Epstein was one of the drivers of, being able to buy, in-game currency with actual money, right? Like a World of Warcraft and that, that type of thing. I don't know if he, supported the people who were studying anyway, but like, he backed that, right? And so it's this nebulous idea of sky money, right? It's not tangible. You don't hold it. And same with credit cards, it's not money that you have in your hands. You can't really see it. It's just a number. And it's, I really think people have a hard time. Understanding just like how quickly it adds on. Especially if you don't have, budgeting classes or anything like that. You're conditioned if you grow up playing video games. And we're right that age, like we were buying Sky money. We were, we were already having that mindset and money was already we were already learning that. It's intangible. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm high talking, but I'm really not. But

Jamie 20:48

No. You know who you sound like.

Rebecca 20:50

Alyssa.

Jamie 20:50

hate this. No, I was gonna say, you sound like Dave Ramsey. 'cause that's like Dave Ramsey's whole thing. I'm

Rebecca 20:56

fuck you. Fuck you. That's the meanest. I honestly, I think that's the meanest fucking thing you have ever said to me in this friendship. I

Jamie 21:02

Hangs up. Hangs up. Podcast is over you guys.

Rebecca 21:06

It's the

Jamie 21:06

I just mean that's his whole thing. don't do credit cards because that's how you can view it. That's how it's so easy to be like that's not there and there's no physical thing. So that's why he has that whole envelope and cash system.

Rebecca 21:22

but student loans fall under Sky money too, right? Like when you're signing up for student loans, that's sky

Jamie 21:28

I was like, oh, free money. That's what I thought. I was like, cool. Free money. Yeah. This is gonna

Rebecca 21:32

What do you mean? I can buy anything I want with this money? What do you mean? I can buy a computer with this money?

Jamie 21:38

Yep.

Rebecca 21:39

Mom, I don't have enough for classes. I bought too many jelly beans.

Jamie 21:42

Mom, I, I can't make rent. What did you spend all your money on from work? What'd you spend all your student loan money on?

Rebecca 21:48

Jelly beans.

Jamie 21:50

I went to the bulk candy shop at the mall, but mom, they have the best saltwater taffee.

Rebecca 21:55

I remember learning how to balance a checkbook, I remember learning how to write a check, but budgeting was just kinda like, not great.

Jamie 22:02

So when I dropped outta college and moved back in with my parents, I had some student loans. It was probably little compared to most people, but I think I had like, I don't know, it was like. 32,000 or something like that. it was still a lot of money. but that's how much I had. So like I had to pay off, but like I couldn't pay it off. So I had already been like just defaulting basically on my loans. My, my early twenties brain didn't even fully comprehend. And also I think I was trying to outta sight outta mind it, right? It was just kind of like dissociate and don't think about it. 'cause that's what we do, like when we're in debt and we have no money and we don't know what to do. Like I told you, like I, during that time, like when I was struggling to just pay my rent and pay some bills, I went to a pawn shop and like I pawn, I pawned like some jewelry from an ex and.

Rebecca 22:56

Yep.

Jamie 22:56

Sewing machine, like a nice sewing machine that I had, and I got nothing from it. I got 120 bucks, 130 bucks from it. But that's like how desperate I was. So then my credit was, I had horrible, bad credit. and finally when I like got that job, the writing job, I decided that I was going to try to budget in a way. And that's when Mint was still around and I loved Mint. I like used that like crazy. I was like, I was obsessive. I became obsessive about it where I was always checking my credit score and my transactions and stuff like that, In recent years, like, do I do that anymore? No, I did recently just get one. I think it's 'cause when Mint, whoever bought Mint Credit Karma bought mint or something and it went away. I never like replaced it with anything. And so I was like, oh, well I wasn't really using it anyway. But I did just recently get a new one that I like that's like helping me at least keep track. But yeah, I had to pull myself out of a deep, deep, bad credit hole and a deep debt hole. And I was living with my parents, so I was able to do that very slowly still because I wasn't making a lot of money, but I was still able to do it.

Rebecca 24:07

I really struggle with the budgeting apps because I get embarrassed seeing like what I spent. I am also not good with budgeting. I'm not good with money. I'm just like a Taurus. So, you know,

Jamie 24:21

this app is like making me like feel ashamed.

Rebecca 24:25

yeah, but I did, I would feel embarrassed and then I would just stop looking and then I wouldn't keep track of things anymore, and I would just avoid it. and I wanna say I'm better about that now, but I'm not, like, I, I still get that feeling in the pit of my stomach and I don't know if this is a DHD or like trying to get that dopamine hit, but I love getting like a fun little treat for myself. And then you get that dopamine hit, but then you get yourself multiple fun little treats, and then it adds up, and then it's embarrassing. Like really embarrassing. Like, I'm a grown ass woman. I should know how to do budgeting by now.

Jamie 24:55

Yeah, personal finance editor.

Rebecca 24:59

Credit card, personal finance.

Jamie 25:00

That's actually,

Rebecca 25:02

I have 300 and something dollars in credit card debt, I try to be very careful, but like, when I was laid off and stressed out, like that's when I would spend more money, and I would like angrily spend it. And it was just like I, in the back of my head, I knew that I shouldn't be doing it. I knew that, like I knew we needed to save, but I just,

Jamie 25:23

I'd get that too. And it's like, I don't even know who I would, it is like I was anger spending at myself almost like an you're just angry at yourself and you're like, well, I can do this anyway, and I don't.

Rebecca 25:34

But also there's something like, I also want something nice, like I, I don't know. I, it's the way things are right now. The cost of things. I feel like I'm two paychecks away from not being able to pay the mortgage. Right? Like, but it's always, it's always felt like that. And I feel like we make just enough to get by and live, but, and sometimes we can do something fun, but like we are never that much ahead. It is always really difficult. And even with 20 years of work experience behind me, it still feels like that

Jamie 26:09

it does.

Rebecca 26:10

I don't know if it's just like, well, fuck it, then kind of attitude. I really don't have an explanation for it. And I, I know I sound like an immature little shit. But I just, I get so mad and it's like, well, you know what? I'm gonna spend it because I'm gonna be dead soon anyway. And money should be spent. It doesn't help anything. It's completely destructive. it's not a good way to be. But

Jamie 26:30

yeah. I don't know why I do it either. But it does. It gets to the point where it's just and I know, like I'm very fortunate now to have a job, but like

Rebecca 26:40

yeah.

Jamie 26:40

it was getting pretty scary there for a while. Like especially when I only had two, two freelance clients left and I was losing both of 'em at the end of last year and I didn't have anything and I was consistently applying all the time and applying more that I knew that was like coming up and yeah, it was like horrific. I was literally thinking, I better not have to move back to Ohio and like move in with my parents at 40 years old because I can't find a job. And I was like, what do I do? I'm very fortunate, but like, I don't know. I don't know what I would've done. It was like coming down to it where I was like, I can't live in this apartment anymore. I won't be, I won't be able to. And it's scary.

Rebecca 27:28

it is, there's also the stress of being partnered with someone who is not, or who does not have your spending inclinations or who does not spend like you and who is able to save a lot of money because they don't have a couch in their third four apartment. Because why would I wanna carry it up that many flights anyways? So I've also saved some money that kind of living, and it's like the worst apartment you've ever been in. cause apparently we don't enjoy comfort, but we've just saved a lot of money, so it's worth it. if you're partnered with someone like that who does not do fun little treats for themselves and they're like, why would you spend this on that? And you're like, I don't know.

Jamie 28:06

That's why you gotta get you a Taurus. That's what I

Rebecca 28:09

And you feel like, but you feel like you're in one of those fucking sitcoms where you're the dumb bitch wife who, do you know what I mean? Like

Jamie 28:16

like spending all the money.

Rebecca 28:17

yes. having to justify and when you say it out loud, like I just wanted a fun treat, then you sound. you're not, you don't win

Jamie 28:24

to say it. You say

Rebecca 28:26

but you're not winning any arguments with that one. Yeah. No, that did not fly at all in any way, shape or form. Then you get defensive and you feel like then it turns into a fight and,

Jamie 28:38

Also though, like being in a relationship or a household with somebody who, where you're both like avoidant of it,

Rebecca 28:45

oh, yeah.

Jamie 28:46

I've been there before. Because I can be very avoidant about like how much I'm spending and it's getting out of control, but both of you don't want to talk about it and are avoiding it, so it gets even more out of control. I think some people are like, oh, I don't do the finances or the money he does, or she does, or I don't touch any of that. that's crazy to me because I just think you gotta know, like you at least have to know.

Rebecca 29:12

Yeah.

Jamie 29:13

and I know it's hard, like nobody likes having to deal with finances and bills and everything like that. But if you're part of the, the relationship or the household where you're contributing, you're paying bills, I think every, like you, you should have. You should have insight into what is actually going on with the money of the household,

Rebecca 29:35

Yeah. Yeah. I, again, not proud of any of it, and I try to act like an adult for the most part, but I definitely struggle with a lot of this.

Jamie 29:45

Yeah, me too.

Rebecca 29:47

I also am worrying about this conversation that we're doing, like bitches be shopping, but

Jamie 29:52

Bitches do be

Rebecca 29:53

though,

Jamie 29:54

I think we focused a lot on that, but it's also just about,

Rebecca 29:57

jelly beans.

Jamie 29:58

it's also, it's really just about jelly beans. yeah. and I think that's like what, that's what gets us into trouble and what has gotten us into trouble. like even we're like, oh, we just like shopping and we have a problem. like that's gotten me in big trouble before that I've had to deal with and figure out. And I think everybody, not everybody, but the majority of people in this world have struggled with paying bills and making rent. And at one point or another, even if they're not now, um,

Rebecca 30:30

Right.

Jamie 30:31

and yeah.

Rebecca 30:33

I think a lot of people feel left out too, like I think so, especially with the rise of social media and influencers and a lot of people being able to see what others have and like maybe you don't. I think

Jamie 30:45

And how good the

Rebecca 30:46

that,

Jamie 30:46

ads are.

Rebecca 30:47

yeah, like you're missing out, oh, I feel like I'm missing out on something, or. Not to mention that social media is basically there to get your information and sell you more shit, right? that's the point. And they're successful at it. It's gotta be really hard to be like, oh, I'm not keeping up, or I'm not, I don't have this. also when your algorithm dials the fuck in and every ad you're getting is oh,

Jamie 31:09

Maybe that's why I got off Instagram. 'cause I'm not really on it much anymore. I was like, I gotta stop,

Rebecca 31:15

Is that a raccoon with a propeller hat? You know what I mean? just,

Jamie 31:19

hang on. I need to know

Rebecca 31:20

I do need to buy that.

Jamie 31:21

What? What

Rebecca 31:22

I do need to buy that. Like, it's just, and it may, and again, the whole system makes it easy. I just need to like shop, pay now. you just click a button. I don't have to enter

Jamie 31:30

Oh yeah.

Rebecca 31:32

on my phone. It's so fucking easy. It's so easy to just spend money.

Jamie 31:38

Yeah. They like, oh, like we'll break it up for you in like monthly payments. And

Rebecca 31:43

The buy now pay later. Shit is insidious.

Jamie 31:46

crazy and it's just so easy to do. It's so easy to do. And it's part of what is like keeping us in that cycle and like what keeps

Rebecca 31:57

Somewhere out there, Alyssa is losing her absolute fucking shit and being like, I know. That's what I've been. She's that's how capitalism

Jamie 32:04

yeah,

Rebecca 32:05

fucking dummies

Jamie 32:06

Eat the rich. Yeah. That's why I said it at the beginning, like it's nice.

Rebecca 32:11

that's how it's supposed to work. I can just

Jamie 32:13

we'll have to get Alyssa on, to talk even more about this too.

Rebecca 32:16

there's an interesting phenomena too, like working in tech and working for people who are. Definitely part of the top 10%. and the way they spend money, which is so interesting. It's like you're gonna order that loaf of sourdough that's $20 but then there's me who's like, I do need 13 lip glosses in different colors. So not that I can throw stones, but it's just to me that's insane. That's an insane thing to pay money for. But maybe the more money you earn. No, no, no, no, no. A loaf, loafs of sourdough bread all at once

Jamie 32:58

I have so many, I have so many questions about this sourdough.

Rebecca 33:02

Apparently it's like famous in fucking San Francisco. That's a lot of money to spend to have fucking bread, which you can make for less than a dollar in your own home.

Jamie 33:14

but I think,

Rebecca 33:15

And it tastes better than this shit.

Jamie 33:16

but I think a lot of people, like I have friends that I know look at me when I, 'cause I do, I order like DoorDash and stuff a lot and. I like, I have friends that like never do food delivery. Like even my partner rarely does food delivery unless he's with me. and yeah, and like I know I have some friends that like look at me ordering food delivery as like what a waste of money. Like just Or go pick it up.

Rebecca 33:41

We have no fucking concept of how much things are at this point too, because everything is so much more fucking expensive. And I remember when gas was like, it was like a dollar 12 when I was starting to drive, right?

Jamie 33:54

Yep. Like 1 0 3.

Rebecca 33:56

everything seems crazy and expensive and I don't know. I don't even know where I'm going with this. It just, I'm tired. I'm tired of this, Jamie. I just wanna treat and I just don't wanna be stressed out about

Jamie 34:06

want a special little treat for a special little guy.

Rebecca 34:09

what was your last special little treat that you bought yourself?

Jamie 34:12

this morning, God damnit, God damnit, listen. my, my partner and I have this thing with really good, like fresh bagels. And there's this place by me that is, it's a bagel place and they're so good. And from my childhood, this may sound weird to other people 'cause I know not all bagel places have it, but salt bagels,

Rebecca 34:35

Oh, I fucking

Jamie 34:36

I love salt bagels and they have the best salt bagels and it like, brings me back. And so my partner was actually, uh, had to go out and do some work in the field, and then there was a bagel place across from where he was at. Yeah. Like he had to go to like, yeah. so hes took a picture and was like, well, I gotta go in now, you know, and like took a picture. And so of course my brain was like, oh my God, I want a bagel. And he like took a picture of the salt bagels and I went, I want salt bagels. So I went on DoorDash and it was literally like. Buy one, get one free at my place. And I was like, what? Hang on.

Rebecca 35:15

A

Jamie 35:15

This is my second one. It's still just here for me. It's waiting for me. So I had that for breakfast and, or I guess it was like lunch, but

Rebecca 35:24

That sounds so good.

Jamie 35:26

So yeah. A salt

Rebecca 35:27

you and I are really, you and I are. Absolutely terrible with each other too. Like we feed off each other and it's not good. We influence. We don't even need social

Jamie 35:36

Like I, I hate it when you come to me and you're like, oh my God, you're gonna want to get this. I hate it because then I'm always like,

Rebecca 35:43

I know.

Jamie 35:43

I absolutely want this.

Rebecca 35:46

And it's not like a competition thing. It's like this bitch fellow TAUs, if she says it's good, I know it's fucking good. I must buy it. Like it's only the best., Jamie, this Muslim comfort blanket

Jamie 35:58

my god. Muslim comfort. I was literally just like in bed wrapped up like a fricking burrito with my Muslim comfort blanket last night, Rebecca. And I was like feeling it with my fingers 'cause I like to do that. And I literally was saying like to myself in my head, I was like, God, these are just like the softest, most comfortable blankets. And then it was like, I should buy another one. I have three of them. I'm like,

Rebecca 36:23

I need them in different sizes and weights. Like I need them for when I'm hot. I need them for when I'm cold. Like I need different

Jamie 36:29

I want some patterns. I think they do have some patterns now, but none I like, I want some cool patterns.

Rebecca 36:36

it's, and it's not like I, I feel left out. It's like I want to be just as happy as you sound right

Jamie 36:41

Yeah, I think that's it. 'cause I think that's the life of a Taurus is we're always searching for that, like ultimate comfort. and I think that's even part of the notebook thing. Like not the ultimate comfort, the ultimate way to do things, the ultimate system to do things. The ultimate way to make your stupid A DHD brain. I'm sorry, your stupid, your A DH ADHD brain isn't stupid.

Rebecca 37:07

it is a stupid a DH brain. I thought we were doing menopause today, so No, it is.

Jamie 37:12

Rebecca got on and was like, oh, by the way, like, I'm so ready. Like, I was listening to this podcast and reading, reading this book and article about menopause, and I have like, and I was like, wait, I thought we were doing money and debt today, huh?

Rebecca 37:27

Which we were 'cause you told me, my brain

Jamie 37:30

So this is all off the cuff, so good job, Rebecca. You're killing it.

Rebecca 37:34

Oh, please. We can, I can talk about spending money till I'm blue in the fucking face.

Jamie 37:37

I know this kind of makes me roll my eyes too, but it's the most accurate way to describe it. We get stuck in the cycle of debt, and it's so easy to do that too because like, just think, you know, if your, if your rent goes through and your 30 cents or a dollar short in your account for it, overdraft fee, and then you get slammed with like, I don't know, 20, 40, overdraft fee and you barely had enough money clearly to like even pay your rent. And now you have this extra money on top of it for paying your rent and it's just like you're stuck and it keeps going. And then you get to the point where like you do, you have to, speaking of predatory loans, you know, like how predatory like payday loans are like. I haven't done a pay payday loan before, but I've been very close. Very close.

Rebecca 38:33

do it. Don't ever

Jamie 38:34

I know. But it was like, that's,

Rebecca 38:37

Yep.

Jamie 38:37

can say don't ever do it, but there are people who have

Rebecca 38:40

I know. I

Jamie 38:41

There's no other

Rebecca 38:41

They should be illegal. They should be

Jamie 38:43

They should. They absolutely

Rebecca 38:44

it should be illegal.

Jamie 38:46

It's horrible. Like they're just like preying on people who are struggling already. And that's literally the most despicable thing I can think of. Not just to prey on people in general, even though Yes, in general that's fucking awful, but to prey on people who are already

Rebecca 39:04

the worst part in their lives. The worst time ever. let's get 'em while they're down.

Jamie 39:09

And sometimes you're down because of medical debt. Sometimes you're down because you've had to, I don't know, maybe you didn't have insurance or your insurance didn't fully cover the cost of you having a baby. 'cause that's crazy expensive. And then you have medical bills to pay, right? that happens.

Rebecca 39:30

No, you're right. And that's, what I was saying earlier, like we live, I think maybe two paychecks to debt. Like to not being able to make the mortgage. And I think that's just how it is here. Like medical debt is insane. Everything costs so fucking much all the time. Everything costs too much. And what are you gonna do? Not pay it. You have

Jamie 39:50

it's yeah, like you can't, like

Rebecca 39:51

yep.

Jamie 39:52

you have no choice. Like a lot of times it's or you're out on the street or you default and you're sent to collections, which is like even more money. Like it's just, I was looking at this survey from MarketWatch, it was from a couple years ago, 2024. And it's like a financial stress survey. 65% of Americans say finances are their biggest source of stress. I'm surprised it's not higher. and among the different like findings, the one that I was like, first of all, it's a huge number. 94% of the people surveyed said that they sacrificed their mental health just to get by financially. And you look at that and you're like, oh my God. But it's we do that all the time. We do that to stay in jobs that we hate, jobs that are toxic because we need money because we're struggling already. Like we have to survive. but like how, but that's so sad that we, we do, we sacrifice our mental health.

Rebecca 40:53

This whole place is a nightmare. I don't wanna be here anymore.

Jamie 40:56

it is.

Rebecca 40:57

And now I feel like I have to caveat being like, as a lady who is middle class and not in any danger of losing her mortgage, I also wanna say that I do acknowledge that. I'm very, very lucky and I realize people have it so much worse and I am very lucky. I have a dual income household. Very lucky.

Jamie 41:16

Yeah. God. Yeah. And that's like another thing too is like we already said, like it's not. Necessarily, I guess like any better when you do have dual income.

Rebecca 41:25

When you think about it, like you, you graduate, you get married, you have kids, right? And it's always being sold to us is what's the next step up? what you have, you gotta make more so you can get more, right? So you have your, it's literally called like what is your starter house? you have a starter home and then you, and so we're always being urged to do like, what's

Jamie 41:43

tell me what a starter home is like. Can you tell me about a starter home? I would love

Rebecca 41:46

Oh, we could go into people our age who can't afford houses, but it's always like, what's next? And that's what keeps, that's what keeps the, that razor's edge to being like two paychecks away from debt happening because you don't stay where you are and save money, you just spend to get to the next, and the next and the next.

Jamie 42:02

because they say spend within your means, but if you're getting an increase at work, like it's honestly probably the best if you don't start spending more because then you actually have more to save and have some savings, but it doesn't work like that. Yeah, we do. We get more money. We make more money if we make more money. If we're lucky enough to get raises and make more money, like we're spending more money. And like you were talking about the future self too, like thinking of your future self and being given this false sense of whatever you saying that made me think. You're given the false sense of, oh, when I'm an adult, I'll have money, I'll have a real job, I'll make a really good salary, which is not always the case. And two, when we were growing up, in like the nineties and like the early aughts as we were getting older, but you're gonna have a partner and you're gonna, you're gonna get married and you will have the, this other person with you and you'll be helping. And you're bo you both will have money, and like, that's sold to us too. And that is not always the case.

Rebecca 43:04

No, that's a really good point.

Jamie 43:06

Yeah.

Rebecca 43:07

Yeah, it's crazy. I'm not saying anything that isn't already no shit, but Sometimes I think about there are entire jobs who are dedicated to figuring out how people think about things and figure out the best way to take your money from you. there's psychological ways that you will never understand or know or even pick up on

Jamie 43:24

car salesman,

Rebecca 43:25

sold to.

Jamie 43:26

like predatory car dealerships.

Rebecca 43:29

brought it around and I'm so proud.

Jamie 43:31

We can wrap. We're wrap. That's a wrap.

Rebecca 43:33

that was a great, that was a great bring around, excellent. You just tied it all fucking together. No one's impervious to it. They'll get you, they'll get your money eventually,

Jamie 43:41

Yep.

Rebecca 43:41

and it's someone's job to figure out how to do that.

Jamie 43:44

Stay. Stay vigilant folks. We're all stuck in it. Even the people I know that are like the best at talking about finances and like, know, like everything that, like you need to know really to like, have healthy finances I guess. I feel like even those people like aren't on top of it all the time.

Rebecca 44:06

Talking about this makes me feel embarrassed. That it's like I should have a fucking handle on my money. And it's embarrassing to admit and realize that we're getting by, but therefore, for the grace of God, like

Jamie 44:17

yeah.

Rebecca 44:18

I should be better about it and I'm not. And that's embarrassing to admit. See, I'm be, I'm being vulnerable and sharing my feelings. Jamie, I just would like to point that out. Thank you. I'm really trying. I'm really trying.

Jamie 44:30

This is so long.

Rebecca 44:32

Yeah. So we had a lot to say about this and we will be doing a part two, so keep your eyes peeled for it. and if you would love to join the conversation, maybe we can do part three. Just send us an email.

Jamie 44:42

At podcast@burnoutcollective.com. Email us if you would like to be a guest about anything, but also if you're listening to this episode about money and debt and you are face palming into your desk or your hands. And you have something to say.

Rebecca 44:56

Please send us. We will love to hear from you.

Jamie 44:58

See you next week for part two.

Rebecca 45:00

Goodbye

Jamie 45:01

Bye.