Rebecca: 0:00

she tried, like a forever effort.

Jamie: 0:02

Yeah, it is pretty pitiful if you watch it to the end. I never did watch it to the end. I was like, what a badass. And now I'm like,

Rebecca: 0:08

Listen, have you set a building on fire? I haven't.

Jamie: 0:11

No, she's a perfectionist and she's still sitting there because she's like, well, I can't leave now because it didn't do what it was supposed to do.

0:20

I am Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

Rebecca: 0:28

Hello, and welcome back part two of what was it? High Standards in a Paper Bag

Jamie: 0:35

It's something about high standards in a paper bag. It was a paper bag full of

Rebecca: 0:40

X. High Expectations That It Was High Standards. Yeah, perfectionism. We're talking about perfectionism.

Jamie: 0:47

Perfectionism, part two.

Rebecca: 0:48

Yes. We had a lot to say. One of the, one of the reasons why we wanted to move it to part two is because I wanted to do some more research into, the difference between perfectionism and OCD and all the comorbidities that go together and how they work together, where it comes from and just come at this with a little bit more, of a research-based conversation instead of me just talking outta my ass.

Jamie: 1:12

but I mean, that's fine. That's fine too. It doesn't have to be perfect. Rebecca.

Rebecca: 1:18

Case in point. You know what, that's true. there are plenty of men out there with podcasts where they just talk outta their ass. So why not us?

Jamie: 1:24

Yeah. Listen, we've seen, we've seen some of the podcasts that are around today. We're fine.

Rebecca: 1:32

The fact that we have show notes, I think sets us apart. but the last time we talked it was a conversation about, OCD and how I struggle with that. And one of the things I wanted to know is how are they intertwined and what's the difference? And the biggest thing is that OCD is a diagnosable condition, right? that's something that is in the DSM five. That's something that a doctor diagnoses you with. it's a mental health condition essentially. whereas perfectionism is a personality trait, which feels hurtful. I don't know why, but.

Jamie: 2:08

Maybe she's born with it. Maybe it's perfectionism. Oh my God. Speaking of which. Off, off track. I'm already taking us off track. Did you watch the America's Next Top Model documentary on Netflix?

Rebecca: 2:20

I am saving it for a gummy and the weekend I'm so excited to watch it.

Jamie: 2:25

It was unhinged. It was honored. There's only three episodes. I didn't realize that. I wish there was more.

Rebecca: 2:31

I've seen snippets online and I am, I just love Tyra being like, what? No, I don't recall. I don't, it was fine.

Jamie: 2:39

I, I think it opened my eyes up to honestly like just how fucking fake Tyra Banks is.

Rebecca: 2:46

this is the woman that introduced sizing.

Jamie: 2:48

Well, I know, but she also like tried to get, you know, queer people and like people that weren't a size zero or a size two to be models and.

Rebecca: 2:58

the quote unquote plus size models.

Jamie: 3:01

Yeah. That are like size six. Size six is plus size.

Rebecca: 3:05

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 3:06

Oh Lord. Yeah. But, I can't wait for you to watch it. Okay. Well that's another

Rebecca: 3:12

I'm excited. Yes. yeah, gosh, she was such a bitch. I now, I'm like, all the time. She was so mean, and she's you actually looked kind of fat in that photo when the girl's like trying to lean and there's nothing. And she's like, sucking. She was like standing on a rock and like trying to suck in, and she's miserable. And then Janice Dickinson is such a fucking cunt, and she's like, you're ugly, you're disgusting, you're not good enough. And it's these teeny tiny girls and they're just like weeping on

Jamie: 3:39

That are literally starving themselves and passing out while they're on this show.

Rebecca: 3:46

And then,

Jamie: 3:47

this is good perfectionist content,

Rebecca: 3:49

and then she's like, Hey, did you have a beautiful lush mane of fucking hair? Shave it off, shave it off. Dye it green.

Jamie: 3:58

Oh my God. Can I, can I spoil one tiny thing for you?

Rebecca: 4:01

It's fine. Like you're not spoiling, it's fine.

Jamie: 4:04

So, well, I, I didn't know this. So like, I was around when the one model had the gap in her teeth,

Rebecca: 4:12

Oh, yeah.

Jamie: 4:13

such a huge deal, and they were like, no, we're gonna take you to the dentist. That's what people were saying too, is like, then all of a sudden it got to the point where people were going to have medical procedures done on the show that they could like win, so that they could model. And this model was like so against, she was like, no, my, like, the gap is me. I don't, I don't wanna close it. Like

Rebecca: 4:38

Isn't, didn't, is it Laura Hutton? Didn't, isn't she like one of the models from like the seventies and eighties who had like the gap in between her teeth? She was like

Jamie: 4:45

I don't know. I don't know.

Rebecca: 4:47

there was a famous model of the gap and the, my point is the gap in between her teeth is like a very, it's been around and is a very like, famous and beloved look.

Jamie: 4:57

And they were like, no, because they said that agencies were already telling, like Tyra and whoever else, like, we wouldn't, we wouldn't book her because of that. and so finally she was like, Tyra basically told her either you get your gap closed or you're out, you're out. You're not gonna make it. And she's like, okay, I'll get it. Like partially closed. And so it was mostly closed. It was basically closed. teeniest little gap that they left. And then years later, this is what I didn't know, they gave a model a gap. Okay, you already knew this. I did not know this. I was like, what the fuck?

Rebecca: 5:35

it was just like watching people be judged by the meanest fucking people in high school every day.

Jamie: 5:41

Yeah, it, it's, it's really hard, really difficult. I mean, I know it's reality tv, but still

Rebecca: 5:49

Adrian Curry was my favorite. She was my favorite. I just, I loved her so much.

Jamie: 5:54

she was very no nonsense, like tells everybody what they think.

Rebecca: 5:59

Yeah. I still follow her on social media. I love her. I don't know. She's, she was great. And then, oh, the twins, when they pitted the twins against each other. Remember the redheaded twins? What were their fucking names?

Jamie: 6:10

don't remember the twins.

Rebecca: 6:12

Oh, your

Jamie: 6:13

stopped watching after a while, but I can't remember when.

Rebecca: 6:16

I, I watched probably longer than I should.

Jamie: 6:19

Yeah, I've seen a lot of seasons, but there's also like,

Rebecca: 6:23

Makeover day was my favorite. It was my favorite. It was so fucking mean. And so awful. And just

Jamie: 6:31

Well, they did ridiculous shit. Like they made a lot of girls just look worse.

Rebecca: 6:38

hideous. Hideous. Again, it's like the meanest girl in high school got to be in charge of your makeup.

Jamie: 6:45

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca: 6:46

Yeah.

Jamie: 6:47

And if you kind of had an attitude and she kind of didn't like you, she might pick something not very flattering for

Rebecca: 6:53

yes. Was it Miss J? The one who was like, what are you gonna be a fucking pussy? Or you're gonna your haircut? This is modeling. It's like, shut up. Shut, shut up. He would just bully them into it.

Jamie: 7:05

was it Miss Jay and Jay Alexander?

Rebecca: 7:07

Oh, Jay Alexander. Sorry.

Jamie: 7:09

I think that was Jay Alexander. Yeah. Miss Jay was the, oh my God. I love Miss Jay.

Rebecca: 7:13

Jay Alexander was a fucking bully. Janice Dickinson and Jay Alexander were fucking bullies. Just, they were all bullies. But

Jamie: 7:21

I feel like Miss J always like kept it real, like Miss J has always been Miss J.

Rebecca: 7:28

who was the one girl. They like bleached her head. They bleached her so hard that she got like scabs. Do you remember that? Like they bleached, like her head was so bleached that it was like bloody scabs on her head

Jamie: 7:39

Yeah, I remember. And this ladies and gentlemen is perfectionism at its worst

Rebecca: 7:47

at it's worst. But I do wanna be on top.

Jamie: 7:50

televised.

Rebecca: 7:51

Yeah, so perfectionism is a personality trait. and they broke it up into two parts. So perfectionist, perfectionistic, Jesus, perfectionistic strivings, which is setting very high standards, and then perfectionistic concerns, which is where it's internalized, it's self-criticism, it's being afraid of making mistakes, and then feeling shame about not being flawless, essentially. So basically it's setting the highest fucking bar for yourself. You never make it because it's an impossible standard, and then you beat yourself up about it for never making it, and it's just this vicious cycle over and over again.

Jamie: 8:30

Yeah, you're, you're stuck.

Rebecca: 8:32

You're doing it because you're not good enough, or I can't make a mistake. Whereas OCD. It's a drive to, and they said neutralizing a threat. it's, it feels irrational, but it's a, in your brain, it's a very real threat. So those are this is where it gets

Jamie: 8:48

O

Rebecca: 8:49

Yeah. For OCD, but they do connect. So there are correlations between perfectionist concerns and OCD symptoms. So people who have like really high, self-critical perfectionism, they're more likely to report OCD symptoms. So it gets a little tangled, but they do go hand in hand quite, quite a lot. Hello, Snoop. We miss you.

Jamie: 9:18

Hello, Snoop. She says like Jerry Seinfeld says Hello Newman.

Rebecca: 9:22

That's exactly what it was and I gave examples, it's like these show up in things like rewriting an email repeatedly'cause it's not right or checking your work over and over again because any small error feels huge and catastrophic. But with OCD, that repetitive action is tied to fear, where it's like, if this is not perfect, something terrible is gonna happen and imper perfectionism, it's about shame and self worth. If this isn't perfect, then I'm a failure. So it's, OCD is like an external action. Something bad is gonna happen. Perfectionism is an internalized self-worth issues. I

Jamie: 9:56

Yeah.

Rebecca: 9:56

what I'm trying to say.

Jamie: 9:57

Fear. Fear of failure.

Rebecca: 9:59

Yes, listeners, it's been a very long week and I'm just giving you a heads up. Words are not coming today, so I'm gonna do my best, but.

Jamie: 10:06

No, you're doing great.

Rebecca: 10:08

This has been the longest year of my life.

Jamie: 10:11

And it's only February.

Rebecca: 10:13

I know, I know,

Jamie: 10:15

great. We're doing great.

Rebecca: 10:17

The other interesting thing I found is that autism and OCD are frequently comorbid, so they often go together too because with autism, repetitive behaviors can feel calming to you and it's self-regulating. and with OCD, there's the natural drive to do repetitive behaviors, because it reduces anxiety and intrusive thoughts. And so those pair together very nicely.

Jamie: 10:41

It's like, is it perfectionism? OCD, autism? A DHD? Or are you just a Taurus?

Rebecca: 10:51

You know what? I didn't, they didn't do studies on are you just a Taurus? But I really think we could get that going. We could probably get a grant for. Are you just a

Jamie: 10:59

No one's, no one's gonna give us a grant to study Toray. But yeah, I mean like it feels like that because they're all like so intertwined. And also just, I was just thinking of like the repetitive actions and behaviors that like just feel calming.

Rebecca: 11:15

OCD also takes up way more time. That was the other interesting thing I learned is that it's, it, they called it a significant occupational impairment. If you're spending two hours rewriting something,'cause it just doesn't feel right. it takes up time and it disrupts your ability to function and be productive, staying late because it feels unsafe to leave unless everything has been rechecked. If you're spending too much time on things, it causes you to be behind, which makes you even more anxious. It takes up a mental load, but it also takes up actual physical time sometimes. So it's fear-based and doubt based, not just high standards. I think that's the biggest, the biggest thing to drive home. yeah.

Jamie: 11:55

Yeah, I'm just wondering where A DHD comes into this because I was, I was saying like, I read that perfectionism is one of the biggest reasons, people procrastinate and like procrastination is, is definitely one of my big personality traits. but I always think, I always view that as like stemming from my A DHD, but I think

Rebecca: 12:18

there a dopamine? But there's a dopamine connection, right? isn't it with a DH, D people, they procrastinate because they need to build up enough dopamine in order to be able to actually do the task.

Jamie: 12:28

I don't know for sure.

Rebecca: 12:29

okay. Okay. Or is it you're just putting it off because you're like, I know it. It's gonna need to be Right. And so you're just delaying the inevitable. Yeah. That makes

Jamie: 12:39

I think with a DHD, it's typically, at least for me, more like, I don't, I don't have the motivation to do it

Rebecca: 12:49

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 12:51

unless it's like, all right, it's now or never. Now you have to do it. So I need that urgency to actually kick my butt.

Rebecca: 12:58

That also causes like workplace burnout too, like having a DHD in the workplace. that's so stressful.

Jamie: 13:05

Especially if you're untreated or like untreated and or unmedicated in some cases, and you just don't even know what's going on. You know, you just know that like everything's more difficult for you. yeah, that was like, I'm sure you can relate, but that was like my whole life,

Rebecca: 13:25

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 13:26

everything was so much more difficult for me and I just thought, oh, there's just something wrong with me. I didn't think it was anything in particular. I didn't think like, oh, this is literally how my brain is. so I need these accommodations.

Rebecca: 13:40

Right.

Jamie: 13:41

Yeah.

Rebecca: 13:42

That's interesting too because, so one of the studies I read, it's like thinking that people are gonna demand, like demand more from you or demand perfectionism from you. Just being afraid of the demands of people and them expecting you perfect causes like mental strain and burnout. At work, just not even doing the action, but just thinking about it is stressful and causes burnout because you're worried about what are people gonna think? What are they gonna ask of me?

Jamie: 14:08

That's more than just like the pressure on yourself because like you, you still have that, you'll always have that pressure on yourself. But then now you have this added pressure of who am I gonna disappoint? Who else am I gonna fail besides myself?

Rebecca: 14:23

Yes, exactly.

Jamie: 14:24

and it's just this whole other level.

Rebecca: 14:26

They also, the other thing I, I, I saw was like, to your point, never feeling finished or never feeling like you're able to start even, because you're worried about what it's gonna look like, overworking. oh, also when someone gives you feedback being like, I fucked up. This is a failure, really. It's just like, Hey, you forgot a comma. Melting down because of that.

Jamie: 14:47

It's like, yeah, just keep an eye on that like too. Yeah.

Rebecca: 14:50

Yeah. It's neutral. It's neutral feedback, but to you it's the world is, and imposter syndrome, that's the other big one. And I think you and I have talked about imposter syndrome before and we both have struggled with it, a lot.

Jamie: 15:02

Mm-hmm. I wonder, do you think, because I feel like as an editor, like, because I've been doing this as my career for so long. I think the criticism and or just feedback, like you said on my editing or on my writing, if I'm writing something, is I think I can take that a little better. Do you feel like you can take that specifically a little better just because you've been so deep in it, or do you think that still kind of makes you spiral?

Rebecca: 15:34

I think if I spell something wrong in a headline and I don't catch it, I'm gonna self flagellate. But if it's someone who's like, Hey, I might, right? If someone's Hey, I might word it like that. I think because I've been editing for so long, I can understand that. that's just a them preference. It doesn't mean they're right and I'm wrong. It's just how they prefer things and that's just how they edit. And so that helps a lot is just being able to differentiate, okay, that's just a dumb thing. and knowing that like different editing styles or different writing styles, one isn't better or more right than the other.

Jamie: 16:08

I mean even just like a missed comma. I mean like, first of all, I would never but, but even, yeah, even just a missed comma. It's like I just always feel like, you know, like we're human. I think when it comes to that stuff, I'm more apt to just be like, well, you know, we're all human. Yep. Happens sometimes, but I agree. If it's something major, like it's glaring and like in a headline, yeah, that would affect me in a different way.

Rebecca: 16:32

I have noticed though, as my workload has increased, I have gotten, I have started to crossover to a point where I'm like, you get what you get. I cannot, and it's not apathy, but it's also like I am one person and you are asking me to do three fucking jobs and I am doing my best, but I'd like to see any of you fucking try to do this. And if I miss something or make a mistake, you wanna do it right? You fucking do it. You hire someone that's.

Jamie: 17:00

was like, Rebecca, that was so, that was so mature to be like, you know, like I'm doing my best. And then you're like, do you wanna fucking do this?

Rebecca: 17:08

I don't wanna be in charge of it. You can be in charge of it. I have this much time in the day for this and this much time in the day for that, and you get what you get. And so it's just been a really interesting kind of rounding the corner. Not on everything, but a lot of things that like compliance is one of my jobs and it's like, it's gonna be late. It's just me and you set a deadline and that's great. I'm so happy that you have a deadline. I'm not going to fucking meet it.

Jamie: 17:33

Yeah.

Rebecca: 17:34

do my best. But there are compliance teams for a reason.

Jamie: 17:37

I wonder if other occupations, when it comes to like perfectionists, I wonder if other perfectionists and other occupations like have something similar where they, it's easier to let that go, like X thing go because they've been doing that for so long and they more like understand it. And I think it's also like, and we understand the, the consequences, quote

Rebecca: 18:01

The first thought that came to me of other occupations that are perfectionists are surgeons, and then I'm like, yeah, they probably wouldn't be okay. Letting anything go. I think that means the person,

Jamie: 18:11

Hope not. Let's hope not. Yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't quite thinking that, but yeah, I'm not sure.

Rebecca: 18:18

but really though, like I, any job that I think has to do with like rules or safety or compliance or anything like that, I think, not those fucking loosey goosey jobs. I don't know.

Jamie: 18:29

Like surgeons,

Rebecca: 18:30

artists.

Jamie: 18:32

yeah. Loosey goy jobs like content creators and influencers.

Rebecca: 18:38

I know. but that, but really though, I, I wonder if certain personality types are attracted to certain jobs because it fits into how they move through life.

Jamie: 18:48

Yeah, I think that's a, I would say that's a big part of it.

Rebecca: 18:51

I, all I've ever wanted from a job is to tell people no and that they're wrong, and then be right. And I think honestly, an editor lifestyle has really met those needs nicely.

Jamie: 19:02

Oh, Rebecca, what do you want? What do you wanna be when you grow up? I wanna tell people they're wrong and I'm right.

Rebecca: 19:09

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 19:09

They're like, okay,

Rebecca: 19:11

Editor.

Jamie: 19:11

a fucked up life. luck to your

Rebecca: 19:13

wanna tell people they're wrong. There comes a point where perfectionism, you have to acknowledge that it's not gonna fucking happen. You have to be pushed. I think some people can get pushed to a point where they're like, as someone who's been a perfectionist all my life, there are some things I'm just like, I can't.

Jamie: 19:30

Yeah,

Rebecca: 19:31

And that's been an interesting experience.

Jamie: 19:35

well with perfectionism and like OCD like that, that will legitimately like, it could like just ruin your life, ruin how you live, you know,

Rebecca: 19:44

I also think the current environment and seeing how things are has been like a nice wake up call of I, I'll get this update done, but also like the world's on fire and

Jamie: 19:55

People are dying in the streets and

Rebecca: 19:57

and again,

Jamie: 19:57

that helps us. Yeah.

Rebecca: 19:59

what did I say? What did I write down below? Like, this isn't, I'm okay with mediocrity, it's just I'm pushed to the point where I can't fucking function within my own high expectations anymore.

Jamie: 20:11

Mm-hmm. But dear listeners, Rebecca wants you to know that she is not mediocre

Rebecca: 20:17

Not okay with mediocrity.

Jamie: 20:19

Never.

Rebecca: 20:20

Oh fuck. Also childhood diversity. That was the other thing, I did a lot of research on, and it's basically like kids who grew up in abusive households, whether it's emotional or physical, that in adults shows up as hyper responsibility in work settings. Huge fear of making mistakes over-functioning in teams, inability to tolerate criticism or feedback, because they're learning that mistakes are dangerous or love is conditional. and those beliefs in their brain turn into these embedded cognitive rules.

Jamie: 20:51

So what you're saying is you just did a ton of research on yourself, is what you're saying. You were just trying to,

Rebecca: 20:57

listen, I can't help it.

Jamie: 21:00

well, also, I mean also like, I think that's what you were saying, but. Just like your siblings, are you an only child? Are you the oldest? sometimes even gender may come into to play here. you know, eldest daughter syndrome, you know, eldest son syndrome.

Rebecca: 21:17

That's not a thing. That's just being mommy's precious angel for their, your entire fucking life. Ooh, more hugs

Jamie: 21:22

that's just being a mama's boy.

Rebecca: 21:24

Yeah, that's what that eldest son syndrome. Mom just loves me best. Can't help it

Jamie: 21:31

Oh God. Or if you know, like you're the youngest and the only girl you know, syndrome around

Rebecca: 21:38

is that Daddy's special angel.

Jamie: 21:40

God, I dunno.

Rebecca: 21:42

Here's the good news though, Jamie,

Jamie: 21:44

Please tell me.

Rebecca: 21:45

OCD and perfectionism are both treatable So cognitive behavioral therapy is, has been shown in studies to help reduce perfectionistic concerns and tendencies, and then the anxiety and depressive symptoms that kind of go hand in hand with them So this is where I step into the research role because I am not a therapist, but there was a trial that they did in 2017 that showed that cognitive behavioral therapy, and this is direct quote, significantly reduced maladaptive perfectionism and associated distress. And then in 2022. It showed that CBT intervention, led to reductions in perfectionism and improvements in depression and anxiety. So it does take work, but it is something that you can work on and that can be improved. I think the biggest things here are that like it can help with the depression, anxiety that goes with it. I think those are the biggest issues.

Jamie: 22:40

Yeah.

Rebecca: 22:41

here? Oh, that's a

Jamie: 22:42

Oh, I was just looking because it's like, you know, the goal isn't to just stop caring, but it's to like reduce self punishment and go from your perfectionistic concerns to just more flexible standards, which like we talked about, like being an editor, like we feel like we are a little more flexible in that case. yeah,

Rebecca: 23:03

And I was like, what does this look like? And so I looked up examples and small. Small steps toward reducing perfectionism tendencies is like sending an email without rereading it 10 times or submitting work that's like at 95% instead of a hundred percent.

Jamie: 23:22

but I mean, I don't think anyone should, should send an email without like looking it over once at least.

Rebecca: 23:29

Right. But 10 times is a little much like just giving it a glance and be like, good to go. Yeah. Good to go.

Jamie: 23:34

because there is something about like looking over your work and then what was the, what was the other thing, sorry? You said

Rebecca: 23:41

no, it's fine. It's like submitting work that's not at a hundred percent. It's like at 90% or 95%.

Jamie: 23:46

that's something that you and I talk about a lot because of. Are like high standards for ourselves, and I think also for other people, we're here kind of like at one 20% and that's like where we're just constantly going, which one can learn to complete and utter burnout, which we both experienced. and two, like, I don't know about you, but like I've gotten really disgruntled because I've like, looked around and like, I, listen, I've, I've been lucky enough to work with some amazing people, so this is not most people I've worked with, but I've looked around and I've just said, this person's doing the bare minimum. like, I don't know, maybe, maybe like we're getting paid about the same. we have kind of a similar role, but it's like I'm doing 120% and this person's doing about like 60%. So if like, I can just come down even to just 100, but like, you know, hopefully to like 90, if I could just do like 90%, that would be, that would be good enough.

Rebecca: 24:49

I think the problem is though, you and I go hard at one 20 and that sets the, that immediately fucking sets the bar. And so there's nowhere to go for us. Like we can't, there's no way we start off our jobs as like fucking shining bright stars and there is nowhere to go. You cannot go up. Down is the only way. And I think that's what works against us is

Jamie: 25:11

like we're setting ourselves up for failure basically,

Rebecca: 25:15

Correct. Yeah.

Jamie: 25:16

just a ton of stress and burnout.

Rebecca: 25:19

yes. Because now I'm like, mistakes are being made on my end. Again, actually, disgruntled is a great word. I'm doing three fucking jobs. They're not hiring other people. And I had a meltdown. I was like, I'm going to drop some balls and. It's gonna happen and I know it's gonna happen. And the only way they're gonna hire more people is when I fuck up colossally to the point where we lose out on revenue and that's a terrible, that's a terrible fucking feeling.

Jamie: 25:45

Yeah. And then like, and they keep wanting more for you, especially if they see like, oh, this is how, and it can fuck it up for other people too. I'm thinking back to like SLH and writers where, you know, we worked with some writers that they could produce like quality content very quickly and. Some other writers couldn't produce it that quickly, which like, I completely understand as somebody who's been a writer, it's hard. There's a lot of pressure. and so that just, it's like, oh, well, everyone should be on this level. And it's like, I don't know if that is, it is, I mean, I'm not necessarily saying like everyone should be on the level of the lowest common denominator necessarily, but there is like a middle ground where

Rebecca: 26:34

Right.

Jamie: 26:35

you just see that everybody's doing, doing good work and doing it at a good pace without being like, well, everybody should be matching Rebecca because she's giving 120% and she's turning things around in less than 24 hours, you know?

Rebecca: 26:51

But here's the fucked up thing. So workplaces do, one of the things I learned about was, an engineer, he called it stack ranking. I think he said it was like either Google or Amazon, they got rid of the bottom 10% every couple months or so. And so your right, so employers, like your managers rank you from the top 10% to the bottom 5%, and then they let go of the bottom 5%. The fear of letting stuff go enough to the point where like you could potentially be in the bottom fibers, especially if you work with a bunch of high achievers. Like you said, we work with a lot of really talented, skilled people, so the margins are very thin between you guys. You don't have to be bad at your job to be in the bottom 5% if you are up against a lot of other really high standard, high achieving people. I can't imagine that hanging over your head, but that is terrifying.

Jamie: 27:38

Well, I'm even thinking like, but think about it, the bottom five or 10% at like Google or something like that, like engineering team. Those I like, I don't think it's those, I don't think necessarily those people are not putting in enough. but that bo bottom five to 10%, like those people are still amazing, right? Like

Rebecca: 27:58

sa That's what I'm saying. You if to have to work at Google, you have to be pretty fucking good, right? I don't think Google hires slop, and so standards are already high, and so if you don't keep at your 120% and you start pulling a, you get what you get.

Jamie: 28:18

Yeah, you risk like dropping below that, which is utter bullshit.

Rebecca: 28:22

So we can talk all we want about recovering from perfectionism, but unfortunately there are a lot of workplaces out there that reward that.

Jamie: 28:31

Yeah. So like environment too, like depending on your environment. Hmm. Yeah. This is a lot

Rebecca: 28:38

like we said, your best is still not good enough. Do better or you'll lose your job.

Jamie: 28:43

do better or you lose your job, I think is the episode title. No,

Rebecca: 28:49

No, it is.

Jamie: 28:50

chop, chop people. Just kidding.

Rebecca: 28:52

I think it's difficult for a lot of people to separate the job that they do with their own self-worth and self-esteem. And I think being able to kind of untangle those and see that just because something happened at work that doesn't change who you are at your core as a person and that is not a reflection on you. You are still good, you're still wonderful. Work is work. and I think being able to, and again, there's a lot of talking the talk, but not walking the walk on this end. Like for me, that's something I really struggle with. But that's one of the things I read on like something that can help reduce that anxiety in you.

Jamie: 29:26

And I think like, and that's I guess another, another kind of environmental, because I think that's a very big problem. I would say more than, more than most countries, but I know some are over us, just in the us, you know, because of how, because of just the work standards in general. and those are just. I don't know. I don't even know what I was gonna say, but,

Rebecca: 29:51

In other countries, who you are at your job and who you are as a person are separate and there's a better work life balance and like you aren't your job.

Jamie: 29:59

Well, yeah, because in the US, like the fucking economy, like it's like it, it is as if you are your job because it's like

Rebecca: 30:07

Yeah.

Jamie: 30:08

so much rides on your job, so much rides on the money you make, and that you can hopefully eventually at some point, make more money than you have been because everything's going up and the money you make isn't necessarily going up. At least not to the level it should be, so that we can all live comfortably. Basically what I'm saying is eat the rich. Okay.

Rebecca: 30:32

They hire managers to quote cut costs, which is basically ring blood from a fucking stone, get everyone to the point where they're doing all the things and get rid of as many people as possible. And then you get a bonus for being able to reduce cost by X percent, and the rest of us are fucking miserable.

Jamie: 30:53

Yep.

Rebecca: 30:53

And then you're too tired to do anything on the weekend, like, I don't know advocacy or volunteering or protesting because, and then that's how they keep you quiet and compliant. Yep. Yep. I had a big rant about that one today.

Jamie: 31:08

Yeah.

Rebecca: 31:09

So are we saying that like, yes, we should strive to reduce our perfectionistic tendencies, but also don't because you wanna keep your job? I feel like this is where this is headed, which is unfortunate.

Jamie: 31:21

Well, I think, I guess like, I guess this is one of those things where I'm like, is perfectionism like a scale? So do we have people that are way on the high end as a perfectionist, and then people that are on the low end that like, you know, do their best and do a good job, but they're not too worried about it? don't know. I don't know if I've read anything about whether or not it's like

Rebecca: 31:49

I think if you're doing your best and not worried about it, that's not being a perfectionist.

Jamie: 31:52

I, I, I know, but I'm saying like

Rebecca: 31:54

Oh, okay.

Jamie: 31:55

zero to 100.

Rebecca: 31:56

yeah. Okay. got it. Again, I think if you push someone hard, I think if you push someone hard enough, you can break anyone and you can break anyone's standards. I really, no genuinely, I really do burnout and apathy take over at some point, and I really think that can override mentally any perfectionistic qualities that you have because you're just so beaten down and you're like, fuck it, and, but then you go into fuck it mode. There's not like a, there's not a night, there's not a balance.

Jamie: 32:23

Yeah. Mm. I think

Rebecca: 32:25

sur Surgeons, again, surgeons, you can't, like a surgeon can't be like,

Jamie: 32:30

oh, fuck it. Yeah. Oh, fuck it. Just close her up.

Rebecca: 32:34

I'm doing my best.

Jamie: 32:36

I, I can't get that, that glove out that I left inside of her, but it's fine I think it's just the overarching, just like the message that we've been trying to get across, I think on the burnout collective is take, take care of yourself. And I think perfectionism really tries to pull us away from that. Because we're gonna gonna get burnt out from it, and we're gonna start feeling like we're, we're bad people and, and terrible at everything just because, you know, we missed something at work or didn't do it perfectly and we failed in some way, or we got some feedback that wasn't positive. and so I think that's just what I would wanna say to everybody is like, if you're a perfectionist, try to keep that on top of mind. And I mean, just try to, and maybe it is just like you're reminding yourself. Maybe you just have to remind yourself every day like, Hey, this isn't the end of the world. There's something my dad used to always say, which depending on the time he said it could come across really. Really crappy. He would always say, like, what number on a scale is this? Right? I'd be upset about something and, you know, I'd be crying and he would say, what number on a scale is this? Is this, you know, your, your friend told your secret to your other friend or something like that, that they weren't supposed to tell, and you're very upset about it, but what number is this? Is this gonna change your life forever? is somebody like 10 is like, somebody's gonna die. Like we've, you know, made a mistake or something had happened that is gonna cost a life. and then one is just nothing. But kind of, if we look at it on a scale, I think that could help us, at least those of us that have perfectionist tendencies

Rebecca: 34:28

Yeah.

Jamie: 34:30

and not to dismiss like feelings or like, yeah, not to dismiss like how you're feeling about something or that it's affecting you. but just maybe to check in with yourself so you're able to maybe, maybe take a step back if you can and be like, you know what, honestly, this is a three. Like, I missed, I missed a headline. And like, like I should have caught that. And I'm very upset with myself for not catching that. And my boss was very upset that I didn't catch it. that can look really bad for our company, for our blog, whatever. but in the long run, especially like you said, given everything that's going on in, in our world, in our country. It's like a spec, you know? And I'm not saying that's easy to do. It's not, but maybe we just need that.

Rebecca: 35:20

That's a really good point. And what you said earlier, it's like there are so many people out there who do 60 or 70% and they get fucking jobs. So if they can get jobs, the job market is shitty and it's hard to find jobs, but just remember those people are hired, right? You made a really good point. Like they have jobs.

Jamie: 35:38

Yeah.

Rebecca: 35:39

That shitty guy has a job, so you should be okay too.

Jamie: 35:42

I don't think that's what I was trying to say, Rebecca, but I love that this is what you've.

Rebecca: 35:47

That's my takeaway. Learning how to emotionally regulate and speak to how you're feeling. I think that is a really important skill that I, a lot of us could use. it's hard, but

Jamie: 35:58

I'm not, I'm not saying like, oh, just do this. Why don't you just, you know,

Rebecca: 36:03

I don't know. I don't, I didn't think you were, I mean, like, it's, it's an important skill and I'm glad you said something.'cause Yeah, like knowing how to do that, I think in the long run helps you. A, make better choices, but b just helps protect your mental health and your sanity.

Jamie: 36:16

and also like talking about this with our friend Pat recently, but just surrounding yourself with people who support you and like who are in your corner and people that will. Really, like, be honest with you, if, if you bring it out, if you say, Hey, this happened at work, and oh, like this is, you know, maybe in the moment that's not the time to be like, but is this a really big deal? You know, like, let them listen to them. but I think having friends too, to say, dude, that doesn't change anything. Like, you're so awesome. You're so good at your job and this has nothing to do with you as a person. So

Rebecca: 36:57

You and I have had those, that conversation many, many, many, many, many times.

Jamie: 37:01

Yeah, so many times. yeah, just yeah, surround yourself with those types of people because if you just surround yourself with people who are only there, you know, for the good and only there to, I don't know, say what you wanna hear. Even you don't need that. You need supportive people in your life. That, and people that give good advice. It's always good to have, have those people

Rebecca: 37:24

You heard it here first. Folks get better friends. That's

Jamie: 37:28

better friends or you may lose your job. Can we put some, like, I don't know, end of movie credits, music after

Rebecca: 37:38

Yes, I do. I do wanna note though, for people who come from an abusive household and have grown up this way. Safety is the key thing. And like safety as a person. I do think it's important to, I would say, if anything, like learning that, that you are safe. Trauma informed therapy is completely different. And I just, I do wanna caveat that there's a lot there that needs to be addressed and I do think it is important to like to get help with that. Type of perfectionism. Space from trauma I is a whole different thing that needs its own words. You know what I'm trying to say? What am I fucking trying to say?

Jamie: 38:15

Yeah. I mean, I think at that point perfectionism feels. Not so much just as like, fear of failing, but like fear of the consequences. For sure. Yeah. Harm. yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca: 38:31

Tiny steps don't apply to this. Like you can't just tiny step your way out of trauma. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

Jamie: 38:38

very true. maybe that's part of like, your check-in with yourself is like, you know, the scale from one to 10, but maybe it's also just like safety,. is there actual danger? Does this make me unsafe in any way? And that's just like a good reminder too, to be like. I am safe now. Like, and I'm okay, like this shitty thing happened and it's triggering me,

Rebecca: 38:59

That's a really good point. You're so smart, Jamie.

Jamie: 39:02

it's not, it's not easy though.

Rebecca: 39:05

When you said earlier, like they make it so that you are getting, bare minimum pay. So your job is literally like safety is wrapped up in whether or not you're employed because so many people are living paycheck to paycheck. Like it becomes a very real fucking scary thing.

Jamie: 39:20

Yeah. And like you don't have money to pay bills or you don't have money or you lose your job and you don't have health insurance. And for some people that's just detrimental. Like that is just, they are unsafe if they lose their health insurance for different reasons. And

Rebecca: 39:38

God's so fucked up.

Jamie: 39:39

our country man.

Rebecca: 39:41

It keeps us quiet, keeps us compliant. Did you see the video of the woman in Kansas City who was just very fucking calmly setting fire to a building that was, I think rumors be, it was gonna be an ice detention facility. It's clearly a millennial'cause she's some fucking skinny jeans and flip flops, and she's just very casually fucking adding lighter fluid to the fire. Has anyone turned her in yet? I'm very curious.

Jamie: 40:04

I don't know actually.

Rebecca: 40:06

two. Building in Kansas City. I wanna see it because they better not have That's a true fucking queen. I still, I'm still not seeing who it was. It just says woman torching warehouse. No one has said who it is.

Jamie: 40:23

Yeah,

Rebecca: 40:23

Good job. I'm not snitching. All y'all Good job. Yeah, they're still on the hunt. Good for her.

Jamie: 40:30

it's so great. They have such good video of her though, so it's like, i'm just watching it again.

Rebecca: 40:36

Yeah. She's just so like, if you wanna do it, if you want it done right, do it yourself.

Jamie: 40:48

Yeah.

Rebecca: 40:49

I wanna dedicate this episode to her anonymous woman in Kansas City who burned down a fucking ice. And you know, the company is like, it wasn't gonna be, it was. It was. We all know

Jamie: 40:59

Doe Arsonist.

Rebecca: 41:00

yes, you're a true, the French, honestly, the French would applaud you. There, there's a comedian I follow. And he was in France and he was like talking about America. He's like, what should we do? And someone's like, set more things on fire.

Jamie: 41:12

Yeah, seriously.

Rebecca: 41:14

And our key burn it down. I'm like, that's, I don't disagree with that.

Jamie: 41:19

Sorry. I'm still watching it. I'm just like

Rebecca: 41:21

It's so good. Right. I,

Jamie: 41:23

when she is just like trying to light that like cloth, like it's not even a Molotov, it's just like a, she's just

Rebecca: 41:30

It's her old fucking high school t-shirt. She's great. I

Jamie: 41:34

go Bears, just squirt.

Rebecca: 41:37

It's so good.

Jamie: 41:38

Oh, this is great. The first comment on this YouTube video is she needs to go to jail for not knowing how to start a fire.'cause it took so long.

Rebecca: 41:48

Listen, some of us are learning, okay, this is our first time doing an arson.

Jamie: 41:52

This is great though.

Rebecca: 41:54

I just love her fucking outfit too. It's

Jamie: 41:56

I love, I just love how casual she is about, about the whole thing. Like she will like look over her shoulder and stuff, but it's not like she looks, she's not in a hurry. She's like, I'm just gonna keep, she's like fucking talking to herself like.

Rebecca: 42:10

Someone is almost like, fire beats ice. That was my other favorite comment.

Jamie: 42:14

Yes.

Rebecca: 42:14

Yeah, I, everyone says caught on video, but I have not seen, I have not seen anything about. Let's see, arson probe. Police are investigating. I don't think they're investigating too hard.

Jamie: 42:27

I don't wanna see her. I actually didn't see the very end of this. What is, she has a book and she tries to pick her bag up with her foot,

Rebecca: 42:36

Amazing, amazing.

Jamie: 42:38

but I wonder what the book is like. She just has a book. It was like, how does that fires like,

Rebecca: 42:43

Probably fucking Court of Thorn and Roses or something like that.

Jamie: 42:46

oh my god.

Rebecca: 42:48

Anyway, I don't know how to end this. Set more shit on fire.

Jamie: 42:52

The one where she fucks the Thanksgiving Turkey. Yeah, that book. Oh, and then she just stands there. Fuck. I did not see the end of this

Rebecca: 43:00

It's a mino tar milking novel.

Jamie: 43:03

gross.

Rebecca: 43:04

Oh, that's gross.

Jamie: 43:05

Rebecca, please. That's where I draw the line. I

Rebecca: 43:08

I'm a vegan. Um, don't approve of that type of content.

Jamie: 43:13

did not see the end of it. She sits down on the curb next to it.

Rebecca: 43:17

I would watch it. It's so pretty,

Jamie: 43:20

The fire seems to be going out. Oh, is she calling? She's like, oh my God, someone set a fire. Did she call on herself?

Rebecca: 43:27

so weird. It's like on fire and stuff. There was this, okay, so she didn't do a good job setting fire. They, we arrived and just basically put out the hotspots, because the accelerant had pretty much burned out by the time they arrived. You know what?. I appreciate the message she was putting out there. I appreciate the effort. I've never set a fire. May all of us who've never set a fire unsuccessfully cast the first fucking stone

Jamie: 43:48

That's so good.

Rebecca: 43:49

she tried, like a forever effort.

Jamie: 43:52

Yeah, it is pretty pitiful if you watch it to the end. I never did watch it to the end. I was like, what a badass. And now I'm like,

Rebecca: 43:58

Listen, have you set a building on fire? I haven't.

Jamie: 44:01

No, she's a perfectionist and she's still sitting there because she's like, well, I can't leave now because it didn't do what it was supposed to do. and they haven't caught her yet because she wanted to turn herself in and be proud of it, but she's not proud of this, so

Rebecca: 44:15

Oh man, that

Jamie: 44:17

I'm just kidding. I'm proud of her.

Rebecca: 44:19

You know what? Anonymous lady in can, anonymous Millennial in Kansas City. We're proud of you.

Jamie: 44:25

baby

Rebecca: 44:26

You tried. You tried. Yeah. Baby arsonist. You did your best. Maybe watch a couple of movies like Backdraft next time.

Jamie: 44:34

Maybe watch back draft. I still really wanna know what the book is

Rebecca: 44:38

anyways. Do your best. You only have this one life. You can't live for your fucking job as much as they want you to believe that you should. I know this is something we need to work on, and by we, I mean me, but like,

Jamie: 44:51

I mean, I think like as a country, I mean at least,

Rebecca: 44:54

it's true. Anyways, get the fuck outta here. Go do something that's not

Jamie: 44:58

Go learn. Go learn how to set buildings on fire

Rebecca: 45:00

Yeah, go learn how to set buildings on fire. just for fun. Just we're not saying anything. You can't sue us. We didn't endorse anything. This is just for, scientific purposes only and just for research purposes.

Jamie: 45:13

Okay. Goodbye.

Rebecca: 45:14

Okay. Goodbye.