Rebecca: 0:00

But then it was this part. When under pressure to make risk decisions quickly, she may delay, put off those decisions because of her strong knee to find the perfect solution.

Jamie: 0:09

So it's like you're a perfectionist and then they're like, you're also a fucking control freak.

Rebecca: 0:14

And a bitch.

0:18

I am Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

Jamie: 0:26

Rebecca, we've brought you here today.

Rebecca: 0:29

Yes, Jamie.

Jamie: 0:30

Like how I just was like, I was like this is the topic we should do and immediately you felt attacked. And I didn't even mean it that way, but you were like, how dare you.

Rebecca: 0:38

We're gonna talk about perfectionism.

Jamie: 0:40

Oh,

Rebecca: 0:41

We're recovering from, no, not recovering from perfectionism, but burnout from perfectionism.

Jamie: 0:46

I think perfectionism burns us out. I think leading up to recording this, I always felt like a perfectionist and now I'm like, I'm not a perfectionist anymore. I'm not. But yeah, maybe like you said, I'm like a recovering perfectionist.

Rebecca: 1:04

I am still in the throes of perfection. there's no recovering yet, at all. so I've, I acknowledge that this is something I have struggled with, but I wanna put a couple of caveats on it. But the first thing I wanna do is I wanna read, so I took, it was like a professional, one of those personality tests except it's called this predictive index. And this was three years after I graduated college. Rebecca strongly expresses the following behaviors task focused. She's driven to fix technical problems, cutting through any personal or emotional issues. she's reserved and skeptical of new people and requires proof to build trust.

Jamie: 1:47

That's just a Taurus though. Let's be real.

Rebecca: 1:49

Now, hold on. And I was like, yeah, okay. But then it was this part. When under pressure to make risk decisions quickly, she may delay, put off those decisions because of her strong knee to find the perfect solution.

Jamie: 2:01

So it's like you're a perfectionist and then they're like, you're also a fucking control freak.

Rebecca: 2:06

And a bitch. Um, she's much, she's much more technically than socially oriented. there was something in here about, oh, she has little interest in small talk.

Jamie: 2:17

Yeah.

Rebecca: 2:18

Perfectionism in the workplace has been an issue pretty much all my life. But the thing is, with late diagnosed autism, one of the things people see, especially in Whitman, is a tendency to be, to have perfectionist, perfect perfectionist. God, I feel like I'm drunk, perfectionist tendencies. because their whole life, they've been people in wrong, right? And so there was always a base level of otherness and not feeling like you're doing people right. And because you felt off, you had to keep your shit together. In order to basically mask and fit in. The other part of this equation is when you have children who are in highly religious or abusive households, they also develop perfectionist tendencies because most of their child is, is spent being told You're not good enough. You are,

Jamie: 3:17

You're

Rebecca: 3:17

not evil. Yeah. No, for real though, that you're dirty

Jamie: 3:22

Yeah.

Rebecca: 3:23

and then if you're trying to avoid physical punishment or emotional abuse, those kids tend to be perfectionists and highly anxious because they are trying to avoid making waves and causing issues that would get them hit more, I guess. It's a perfect storm of. What you see before you today

Jamie: 3:41

Dear listener, let me describe Noah.

Rebecca: 3:43

So when you're like, let this topic should be perfectionism. I, I felt that, I felt that really hard in my little soul. And you said, it's just gonna be me coming into a room and you sitting on a chair at Chris Hansen's

Jamie: 3:55

yeah, please have a seat.

Rebecca: 3:58

How is he,

Jamie: 3:59

Have a seat. Welcome. What's in that bag?

Rebecca: 4:02

is that a highly organized es.

Jamie: 4:04

Are those your high standards in that brown paper bag? You look ridiculous right now.

Rebecca: 4:09

I also think it goes hand in hand with a lot of mental illness like OCD

Jamie: 4:14

Oh yeah.

Rebecca: 4:15

And anxiety, which I also have in my bag of high standards,

Jamie: 4:19

so I was looking up the different, types of perfectionism. So I started listening to, wait, what? Why are you laughing at me?

Rebecca: 4:27

the different types of perfectionists, like almost perfect. Very perfect. I.

Jamie: 4:33

no. There's different types of perfectionism.'cause I had sent you that podcast I was listening to. It's The Hidden Brain Podcast by Shankar Ante. And there was an episode called Escaping Perfectionism, and I don't even know how I found it,'cause I had never listened to this podcast before, but now I'm like, I'm sold and I love this podcast. but he had on a psychologist named Thomas Corin, who, they were just like talking about perfectionism and the different types. And so I started doing like a little more research, because they're self-oriented, other oriented, and then socially prescribed. So self-oriented is obviously like what we put on ourselves, like what we expect of ourselves and that I think is very much like you. that's how I see you is I think you just put a lot. Yourself and have these very high expectations for yourself. and then other oriented is when you switch it on other people. And now that I'm thinking about it, I do think that, I think I'm recovering from being a self-oriented perfectionist, but I think I can still be other oriented, which makes me feel like an asshole. But it's like

Rebecca: 5:44

What do you mean? Does it mean you're expecting people to be perfect or you think people are expecting you to be

Jamie: 5:49

you're expecting people to be perfect. So for example, like having like super high standards, like I'm even just thinking as an editor, right?

Rebecca: 5:57

that's a good point. Oh shit. That's a really good, oh, inter. Okay. I didn't even put those two together, but yeah, that's,

Jamie: 6:06

yep. Like that just hit me now. Yeah. That just hit me. Now that I'm like, oh, okay. Because. When I was talking about your high standards in a brown paper bag, I was like, oh wait, like I always have like pretty high standards.

Rebecca: 6:19

Our careers are literally demand us to be perfect. We literally look for mistakes from mothers. Holy crap.

Jamie: 6:25

Yep. so it's not our fault, but the third is socially prescribed, so the third is basically just you think others are expecting you to be perfect, and so you put that you're still, it's still I think it's still connected to the self-oriented because you're still, but it comes from like external sources, and that may be like social media or that may be, even just like you being competitive and seeing, This is what other people are like or even making shit up.'cause we make stuff up in our heads that like everyone else is okay and everyone else is doing okay, but I'm depressed and I can't keep my shit together and I can't do this. And like I've said that a ton of times, especially not having kids, I've said I don't even have kids or a family and I have such a hard time, keeping house, I have such a hard time keeping up with everything. and having to work and do a job. And, yeah, I think that's like the socially prescribed,

Rebecca: 7:19

Does it show up? Do you think it shows up in the workplace or does it show up more like your parents are coming over and you think that your house has to be spotless?'cause your mom's gonna judge you otherwise?

Jamie: 7:28

I think it's anything. And I think it just depends on the person. I don't think that you're necessarily only a perfectionist when it comes to your work. I think like you can still be a perfectionist and other things, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe, I don't know. Do you feel like you're a perfectionist only with like work and like business, or do you feel like that's It's just everything.

Rebecca: 7:55

Janie, please have you been to my house? What's really, really interesting is when people are coming over, that's when the perfectionism comes out and it's it's got to be together. But when they're gone, that's when I can relax and then, have little doom piles and squirrel away things in the wrong cabinets and forget about where they are. so I guess it's needing to be perfect only when you're being observed Every time you have someone come over, there's the day before panic where you're like freaking out, I gotta pick up everything and blah, blah, blah, blah. and parents would be like, don't worry. Like it's fine, but you're still driven to do it, right?

Jamie: 8:33

It's like you have to, you still have to do it. Like I always say, no, I have to do it for me. like it's not, you're still driving yourself fucking crazy. yeah. Oh man. See, I was like, I'm recovering like this is great, and like now I'm thinking about it and I'm like, oh my God, I'm not at all. What? Like why did I think I had escaped this?

Rebecca: 8:50

The other thing I was thinking about ways that perfectionism is ingrained in us from a really young age, maybe not so much for you, but for evangelical churches, a lot of it talks about purity culture and making yourself as. attractive as possible for your husband, right? And if he cheats, that's because you didn't keep him interested. And it's your job. And there's a lot of pressure on keeping your shit together, keeping your body as small as possible, keeping like your hair done at all times, basically just meeting the most impossible standards ever in order to please your husband. And so that messaging is still in the background at all times. There's no talk of like body positivity. There's no talk of you're beautiful as you are. No, you gotta keep your shit tiny and small, otherwise your husband's not gonna love you. And,

Jamie: 9:44

to 1950s, like housewives, like just,

Rebecca: 9:48

Yes.

Jamie: 9:49

full face of makeup, full fully hair, done all the time, dressed all the time.

Rebecca: 9:56

that sets you up for a lifetime of, did you call it self? No. What was the first one you said? Yeah. self-oriented perfectionism. I guess that's self, but also socially'cause Yeah. So it's a whole fuckery of

Jamie: 10:11

Perfectionism.

Rebecca: 10:12

perfectionism.

Jamie: 10:13

A perfectionism fuckery.

Rebecca: 10:15

Yeah. But then the most, the biggest part is, and also God needs you to be perfect and God is watching you. So then

Jamie: 10:21

But Rebecca.

Rebecca: 10:22

no, I know.

Jamie: 10:23

Pop's Nerfect at the job we met at. I still have it. And like I need to whip that out because one of the things we got was a mug that said pop's nerfect. and yeah, that just reminds me of,

Rebecca: 10:36

I hated that the depths of my soul in a way I cannot begin to describe to you,

Jamie: 10:41

I think we all hated it, but like now there's just like the like little person inside me that's like, but I miss everybody though, so I kind of like it now. It's yeah, I dunno.

Rebecca: 10:53

And we both worked at tech startups too. So even though they're like move fast and break things, that's not how they actually are. It's if you fuck up. It's very noticed and

Jamie: 11:05

Yeah.

Rebecca: 11:06

not accepted.

Jamie: 11:07

They want you to be perfect and move fast and it's I don't know, I still just don't really see how those go hand in hand. obviously be perfect and do your best, or I'm sorry, go fast and do your best, but I was even thinking just about growing up as a pastor's kid, I always felt that, it was either or. I think eventually I came to realize it was either or.

Rebecca: 11:30

I would, I don't even know if there's an answer for this, honestly, like raising kids. I wanna say that it helps you realize that it's okay if things are messy and they suck. unfortunately that hasn't been the case for me and I really feel like sometimes I'm setting a bad example for my own kid.

Jamie: 11:49

Yeah. I think that's one of the scariest things about having kids is like

Rebecca: 11:53

Yep.

Jamie: 11:54

being afraid, like you're gonna fuck'em up. Being afraid that are you just gonna keep doing, Same because like we do, we learn by example a lot of the way. So even if our examples are bad examples, like sometimes It's hard for us to sort through that. And

Rebecca: 12:11

Yeah.

Jamie: 12:12

I think it forces you, this is what I thought you were gonna say is that the thing with kids and perfectionism is it forces you to dissect like your own a little bit and figure out how it started, where it came from and why, and set your kid up for success. even though, again, you're not perfect, or if I could just glare it at the screen.

Rebecca: 12:35

That's an opinion of yours. That's fine.

Jamie: 12:37

That's a very imperfect opinion. but even if you're not gonna be the perfect mother, even if you're not gonna raise the perfect daughter, even if you're not going to do everything perfectly right. You still just wanna do it better.

Rebecca: 12:52

Yeah.

Jamie: 12:53

And I think that's, I think that's I feel like that's the only thing that matters is that you do your best to improve upon your situation.

Rebecca: 13:02

a really good point.

Jamie: 13:03

Yeah. yeah. From what we already talked about, like you, it sounds like you are trying and like you are going out of your way to

Rebecca: 13:10

okay. cool. Thank you. So what are some things that you, like, you said you think you're recovering. Are there things that you do that you actively stop yourself and are like, okay, this is good as is? Or I actually don't really need to do this. I.

Jamie: 13:23

Honestly, it started with the patriarchy. I, stopped giving a shit what men thought. And now overall I try to not give a shit with what people think. And so I think that's I believe that's a major part of it. And, but it's hard to do. I'm not saying I still don't Care about what anybody says. Like of course that's not true. But, I think I do actively have to like, remind myself often that what a stranger thinks of me if I go out wearing a certain outfit or without my hair done or without makeup on, or without having showered that day or something. you just gotta stop caring about yourself basically. I'm just curious. It's like what it sounds like but I do, I think like perfectionism stems from, but I guess that's like that third type of the socially prescribed, because like then you're thinking about what other people might think of you.

Rebecca: 14:16

and also if you think about it, the media and advertisements are geared toward conditioning us to feel that way in the first place, right? Like anti-aging products and anti-aging advertising and all the discourse around that. Something about You is wrong and off, but here we can fix it. And I mean that messaging from the get go, like you're not pretty enough, you're not thin enough, you're not dressed well enough, you're not wearing the right mate. Like all of women's advertising is geared toward you need to fix whatever

Jamie: 14:47

You don't have the right bag. You don't have the right job. You don't, yeah.

Rebecca: 14:51

exactly. So we're just conditioned from the start to. To constantly be looking for ways to fix ourselves or improve ourselves. And part of me wonders if men deal with the same thing or If there's an equivalent or if, I

Jamie: 15:07

If only men listen to this show. like we could ask somebody, but I don't

Rebecca: 15:11

Yeah. But

Jamie: 15:11

I think they do well. Like this has me thinking, which I never really thought before, but now I'm like, is everybody a perfectionist? Like to some extent

Rebecca: 15:21

I guess let's define it Like perfectionism is. I think part of it is there is a fear of something bad happening or a bad outcome. if what I You need to be, what you're doing is if what you're doing isn't correct or perfect. There's I think that. fear, there's feeling like you're not good enough, and wanting yourself, but I think it's the fear of a bad outcome or a bad situation happening. there will be a negative consequence to this.

Jamie: 15:50

But I don't even know if it is. I don't even know if it is like negative consequences necessarily. Oh man. And what's I wanna say frustrating. I guess it's not frustrating, but what's eyeopening is. How perfectionism, anxiety and Like Neurodivergence, a DHD, like autism are just so interconnected because fuck

Rebecca: 16:19

What is the root cause of perfectionism? So I'm reading that there's like a psychological, there's psychological factors of that. So I, I think it's a consistent and ongoing need to be perfect. I think it surpasses like, oh, I wanna change this about my super, I wanna be better. This is like a all encompassing personality trait

Jamie: 16:42

yeah.

Rebecca: 16:42

that has what you just said, has other, is it comorbidities or, It shows up in other ways too, like with your mental health and that type of thing, but it's not in the DSM five. It's not like a mental disorder, but I think offshoots of it, like to your point OCD, like those are and

Jamie: 17:00

Yeah, I think I just based something in the doc. I think one of the things, I said I don't think it's necessarily the fear of something negative or the fear of a negative consequence necessarily, but the fear of failure. I think that's the key to perfectionism. and I think that's why it can be and that's why it can burn you out. And that's why it can be so fucking exhausting is.

Rebecca: 17:24

See, this is how I know I am, because when you're just like, it's fear of failure. I was like, yeah, that's just what I said. Like the, it was like, yeah, I said that. and then I realized oh no. People don't usually think failure is, but yeah, no, that, to me, that's that would be the bad outcome. That would be the worst case scenario is failing.

Jamie: 17:42

Oh, there we go. case in point. We're done here.

Rebecca: 17:45

we've solved it. Again,

Jamie: 17:46

Thank you so much for joining us today, Rebecca. yeah.

Rebecca: 17:49

I also think it can get to a point where it drives away people, or I'm specifically thinking of like parent and child relationships. it can drive a wedge between you, it can affect your relationship with your partners, your friends. It's especially if you're holding them to high standards, That like maybe they're not capable of meeting in that moment and not being able to take a step back and say, do we really need them to be there and why? I don't think there's the ability to step back and be like, why do I need them to be X, Y, and Z?

Jamie: 18:21

I think it's also like it can also be holding you back because you're afraid like, like whether or not it's conscious or not. there may be times when you're not doing something because of that fear of failure, so you're just like

Rebecca: 18:37

Right?

Jamie: 18:38

I'm not gonna do that. What, what was it? What was I listening to? I was listening to something else. Maybe it was another podcast. I can't remember. I'll put it in the show notes if I do. But it was about perfectionism and they did some study with children, and it was like, they gave kids a puzzle to put together and then they put it together, and then after they put it together, they gave the kid the option. do you wanna put this same puzzle together again, or do you wanna do this new puzzle that's like a little more difficult? And the majority of the kids would choose over and over to do the same. One because they knew that they could get an outcome that they liked. Rebecca holding up her fucking report card.

Rebecca: 19:23

I literally thought you were gonna say they had'em do a puzzle, but they left out like two pieces and saw how they react.

Jamie: 19:29

Actually, while this story was being told to me, that's what I thought in my head. I was like, Oh, they like take out a piece, be

Rebecca: 19:37

Yeah. I would lose my shit like. I,

Jamie: 19:39

it, it reminds me of like IKEA furniture.'cause I remember putting Ikea furniture together with

Rebecca: 19:46

Yes. I.

Jamie: 19:47

a partner and them being like, Nope, we don't, we're missing a piece. And then like I, I went and observed and I was like, what are the chances? What are the chances you're missing a piece And. I don't know what this says about me. Maybe this isn't good but like I was like, the chances are very low that we're missing a piece here. Maybe we're just looking at it the wrong way. This probably doesn't even have to do with perfectionism, but that's what it. reminded me of is like putting together, and I was right. We were just really looking at a piece like the wrong way, and we did have all the pieces, but

Rebecca: 20:25

no, but that sounds like they're geared toward it's gotta be, to your point about holding yourself back. Like, why would I even put this together? I just know we're missing a piece. Like it's gonna be a bad up. Yeah. there are so many things I didn't do because I was worried about being embarrassed or not getting it. And I like, just off the top of my head, I'm specifically thinking of going out for, soccer or trying out for a play. Like it was just easier to be in pit orchestra, because I knew how to do that and like I didn't have to go through the potential of being told no after auditioning.

Jamie: 20:56

Applying for jobs.

Rebecca: 20:58

Yeah. Oh, that's a really good

Jamie: 20:59

Yeah. that was me. So much like, during this past year when since I got laid off and was not finding anything, was not hearing back from anybody. And sometimes I would be hesitant, like you would send me something or other friends, loved ones would send me job opportunities. And sometimes even I would say oh, thanks, thanks for thinking of me. But then like in my mind I would be like, they would never hire me because. In this list of 10 things, Like, I can only do eight of those.

Rebecca: 21:28

Yeah.

Jamie: 21:29

And you have to you can't think like that Like

Rebecca: 21:34

I guess my question is though, again, back to, are we being conditioned to think like that because of. Basically what we've been experiencing for what the 20 years that we've been working. Like again, especially working at startups are such a high standard that you have to meet.

Jamie: 21:48

Yeah, but it's also just like a lot of the times they're still just trying to throw shit at the wall and hope it sticks. But at the same point

Rebecca: 21:56

Yeah. And also thinking of all the people we worked with that are absolute dickheads and yet somehow they got employed. Really that should be, our guiding stars that Like, that asshole got a job, so I sure as shit can get a job.

Jamie: 22:08

Yeah,

Rebecca: 22:09

I remember, maybe this is OCD, but I remember when I was young, like in high school, I would freak the fuck out because, no, I'm not gonna say this. I think that was OCD. Nevermind. I'd be like, I'd have to do my ponytail over and over again if there were bumps in it. That's OCD. We're not gonna talk about that. It's fine.

Jamie: 22:24

we can definitely talk about that. I'm actually surprised that we, that grow of frustration. I'm so sorry.

Rebecca: 22:29

I think OCD, and dealing with that. are at the root of a lot of what I go through. again, I think of things like when I was a kid at like I just said, like putting a, trying to put a ponytail in and if it was bumpy, having to redo it over and over again, like that's an OCD symptom. Placing stickers and them not lining up and then having to peel them off And put'em on again. So they like that kind of

Jamie: 22:53

And then giving up because when you peel it off at the last second, it rips some of the paper and then you're like, now it's all ruined. So

Rebecca: 22:59

Thank you. That's exactly correct. That's exactly

Jamie: 23:02

I'm a recovering perfectionist.

Rebecca: 23:04

I did a report and I had to do a trifold and I spelled Pennsylvania wrong on it, and it bothers me to this day.

Jamie: 23:11

God. How old were you when you did this report?

Rebecca: 23:14

I was in fifth grade.

Jamie: 23:16

Jesus.

Rebecca: 23:17

It was the longest state I've ever fucking spelled in my life. And I forgot the I at the end.

Jamie: 23:22

I'm really surprised that we haven't, I don't think that we have, we had an episode on like perfectionism or OCD or I'm really surprised.

Rebecca: 23:31

That would just be an hour of me vomiting into a mic and all the ways that my life is fucked up

Jamie: 23:37

next, week in episode four. What?

Rebecca: 23:40

No, it's true. Like your life is controlled. Your life is controlled by OCD, which leads to you being a perfectionist. I'm a hundred percent convinced of that.

Jamie: 23:47

Yeah. I'm even thinking about, you were talking about the ponytail thing, like doing it over and over until it's right. I can get like that. You've seen me get like that, but for me it always feels more like a DHD hyper focus. Where I'm like, now I'm zoned in, now I'm just like tuned into this and I have to do this. Or Seeing a certain actor in a movie and being like, I know where they're from, where are they from? And then getting distracted and not paying attention to the movie, and instead on my phone trying to figure out where I know this person from because like I can't stop until,

Rebecca: 24:21

So you have an A DHD compulsion, and your compulsion is you hyperfocus and you need to figure it out. And once you do, you're fine. And then I'm over here. I'm thinking, with OCD, it's I need to do it right, but if I don't, everything is ruined and the world is on fire. So there's a hyper fixation, it's just the different outcomes. So with A DHD, it's like the relief of figuring it out or knowing it and with OCD, it's otherwise the world is gonna burn.

Jamie: 24:47

Right.

Rebecca: 24:48

It's really interesting,

Jamie: 24:50

No, that's a good distinction. Yeah, I feel so naked.

Rebecca: 24:54

I had a, therapist once be like, I'd love to work on your OCD with you. And I was like. Not in a million fucking years, lady.

Jamie: 25:00

Why do you not like work on or through some OCD stuff in therapy?

Rebecca: 25:04

Okay. So here's the thing.

Jamie: 25:06

I.

Rebecca: 25:07

One of, one of my fun OCDs is contamination OCD, right? And unfortunately, when you have a kid who gets sick with COVID and almost dies in the hospital, it kind of proves to you that yeah, if you touch the thing with germs on it, you're gonna get sick. And to me, that's like, irrefutable proof that my obsession over all the shit that I do. To avoid contamination is right and correct. And I've had a really hard time disentangling that and I, and they're like, let's try exposure therapy. And again, it's like, not in a million fucking years because it's germs, would you have me like a toilet lid? Like I'm gonna get sick. that's, you're proving what I'm worried about. So that I think is really hard to untangle my thinking process from.

Jamie: 25:55

Yeah.

Rebecca: 25:56

It was there and it wasn't bad until she was born and she was born too early and then she was in the hospital for two weeks. And then she couldn't go out into public for three months because of her immune system. No one could come over and no one could hold her. it really ramped up from there, right? everything ramped up from there. And then once she got sick again, when she was eight, so to me that OCD is linked with a germ theory, but B, that horrible situation happens at the end if you don't follow it, which is your kid

Jamie: 26:27

because it did happen. Yeah.

Rebecca: 26:30

right?

Jamie: 26:30

And so it's like, how do you let that go when you're like, look, here's proof. Yeah.

Rebecca: 26:37

Yes, exactly.

Jamie: 26:38

And that's, same thing with COVID. I don't know if that made things worse for you. like, I, I'm, yeah, I'm definitely not OCDI don't think, as far as, but I've always been like, like on top of Gers, I always been like, I'm not like a horrible person. Listen, when I was in high school and I was in the girl's bathroom, and girls would use the bathroom and leave and not wash their hands, I, would literally scream, aren't you gonna wash your hands after them while the door was opening to try to shame them Because I thought it was

Rebecca: 27:12

I think that just makes you a bitch.

Jamie: 27:14

what? Okay, fine. But I was just trying to, get my point across that you need to wash your hands after you use the bathroom. But anyway, so that said, like I, I think just like basic, basic hygiene, which is, I don't know, maybe a low bar for some people, but ever since COVID I like, that's changed a lot, especially since, listen, I didn't get CO until, when was that? That I went on vacation with you? I did not get COVID from Rebecca

Rebecca: 27:44

no, two years ago.

Jamie: 27:45

two years ago. Oh,

Rebecca: 27:47

2024.

Jamie: 27:47

So 2024. I didn't get COVID until 2024. That was the first time I got COVID. And it was my, I guess technically my second flight, because I think I had gone to, I flew to my grandpa's funeral and that was the first flight since COVID. Then my second flight since COVID was, yeah. And so I got COVID from that. And then going to big, like concerts and events and then getting sick right after. It's just this. just a reality? this is just how it is now. And So. that it's not gonna stop me from going, I'm not gonna stop flying altogether and I'm not gonna, and I guess that's maybe the difference. But like, how are you with flying? do. you feel, I know you have and you do. but I'm saying like, is that really hard for you?

Rebecca: 28:32

Airports are a fucking nightmare from the beginning, touching the luggage, having other people's luggage touch mine because that's how bedbugs are passed sometimes is through luggage. So that's a fun little fact.

Jamie: 28:45

I hate that you're my friend because I find out things like that.

Rebecca: 28:50

Having to use the airport bathroom and you have to hang your bag on the hook. And if it's an auto flush toilet, then you have toilet water on your backpack. Now, from the spray, having to sit in the seats that everyone has touched before, having to wipe, I have to wipe those down. I, wear a mask on planes, and then I'm also going to sensory overload because I have a mask on. I'm hearing everyone cough and sneeze, and. The last time I went to the airport, it was to pick up my kid after she visited her grandparents. And there was a lady, I kid you not in a long skirt with no underwear on, and I could see she had no underwear on'cause she had a split in the skirt and you could see everything. And so just to connect those dots, someone with a raw ass pussy is sitting on an airplane seat that you now have to sit on.

Jamie: 29:38

Wrap, wrap, wrap.

Rebecca: 29:40

And I can't let that go. The airport breaks me every fucking time to the point where I have to medicate. Otherwise I have an absolute meltdown. I've had a meltdown before on a DC subway car

Jamie: 29:54

I think we talked about this. What episode was it that we talked about that in though?

Rebecca: 29:58

you don't know, but like

Jamie: 29:59

Yeah.

Rebecca: 30:00

I am I get so overwhelmed and I'm thinking about every fucking thing that is touching and.

Jamie: 30:05

Yeah.

Rebecca: 30:06

I had to wipe down my suitcase with antibacterial wipes when we get home.

Jamie: 30:11

Yeah. it's a good thing to do.

Rebecca: 30:14

But see, some people just put their suitcase back in their house, but I'm like, the suitcase rolled in the bathroom, and then it rolled on the floor, and then the wheels are rolling on your floor, and now everything is on your floor. And then the dogs run on the floor, and then the dogs paws get on your bed. And so now the airport bathroom is on your bed.

Jamie: 30:31

you didn't have OCD before this episode, now you do. You're welcome.

Rebecca: 30:36

It's exhausting. It's an exhausting way to fucking live.

Jamie: 30:39

Yeah.

Rebecca: 30:40

If I know that Robert has stepped on his shoes in the house, like wearing his shoes inside on a specific spot on the floor. When I walk, I try to avoid it and I wear, socks, so my bare feet do not touch the floor,

Jamie: 30:53

Yep. Wow.

Rebecca: 30:55

It's a fucking nightmare.

Jamie: 30:57

You're like, this is why we shouldn't do an episode about OCD.

Rebecca: 31:00

Every time I go to the gym, I am melting down inside because I'm touching all the weights and all the things that other people have touched, and I have to wash my hands before I go.

Jamie: 31:08

But I mean, you touch them though,

Rebecca: 31:11

Yeah. Except the whole time I can smell my hands. I can smell, you know, like metal smells after a while. No, you don't because you're a normal person. I don't

Jamie: 31:21

sweaty metal. no, I know. I do know. I don't know why I know, but

Rebecca: 31:25

Okay, so I can smell the metal on my hands and then I'm like, I can't touch my shirt.'cause then it's gonna be on my shirt and like it's a whole thing. It's a fucking nightmare. Every day is a fucking nightmare.

Jamie: 31:35

Yeah.

Rebecca: 31:36

Thanks for talking about airports, Jamie. I really appreciate you asking that question.

Jamie: 31:40

So what do you like in airports?

Rebecca: 31:42

You know what, I'm just gonna do a plug for Alaskan Airlines. Right now it is$60 for a day pass to the Alaska Airlines lounge and you just go and you sit and you're away from the general public and they have nice, clean bathrooms that only a few people use and it's great. And that has really fucking helped. My mental health is worth$60 when I go to the airport to sit in a room where very few people are, and it's quiet. And it's clean, and that is a huge help.

Jamie: 32:14

Can we just talk about really quickly, I'm just taking, this is just a side, this is a side quest. I had told you this when it happened and I don't even know what it was. It was like some fucking sports podcast, but someone got Uncrustables to sponsor them And I'm

Rebecca: 32:28

I know

Jamie: 32:29

because that was supposed to be us.

Rebecca: 32:32

it. I know they

Jamie: 32:33

Alaskan Airlines and Uncrustable. Okay. Alaskan Airlines. They probably sponsor a lot of podcasts already, actually. But don't let us down.

Rebecca: 32:42

yeah. so don't go to a lot of places. And it also depends on the situation. if I'm under a lot of stress, my OCD is really bad, right? There are days when I am not stressed and it, I can exist in the world, right? And it's not as bad. but it's really limiting. you wanna talk about movie theaters

Jamie: 33:02

I don't know. Do You wanna talk about movie theaters Rebecca?

Rebecca: 33:05

no, but so this was supposed to be about perfectionism, but now it's just OCD. But here's the thing. I think with OCD feeling like, everything is so out of control and you have to control it. I think perfectionism kind of sneaks its way in there because it's like something you can actually control, maybe. I'm not saying it's the right way to be, but I can see where you could possibly lean really far into it because you at least have control over this one thing. Maybe

Jamie: 33:32

yeah. I can understand it too. I just, and that's even trigger warning eating disorders, but that's where eating disorders stem from. And it's just like needing that con. Yeah, needing that control and also needing and societal pressure.

Rebecca: 33:51

People who say they eat clean. I'm, I think is a perfectionism trait and an eating disorder because it's oh, I eat clean. It's what is that? And I think that's an eating disorder on its own is like having obsessed about your food being perfect and clean and not, I don't know what dirty food is,

Jamie: 34:08

we can, yeah. if we can even get into it where I truly think, And not as a joke, like I truly think some vegans have eating disorders and

Rebecca: 34:19

oh, that's a really

Jamie: 34:20

Yeah. And

Rebecca: 34:21

Tell say more about that.

Jamie: 34:22

I just mean yeah, you can have eating preferences, dietary preferences. whether or not it's for reasons other than like for, okay, for me, for example, I'm vegetarian. I eat vegan often, but I love cheese, so I'll eat cheese, but most everything else I eat is vegan almost for the most part. I think if you really get into it, I remember my partner at the time, there were a couple times where I tried to go vegan and one of them was back in 20 15, 20 16, something like that. And, my partner at the time, once I just, I gave up after, I, think it was like three months, four months, something like that. My partner was like, oh, thank God. Like the worst part of our relationship was when you were vegan. and it was like, a joke, but they meant it because I was so obsessed with Where am I going to eat next? What's my next meal gonna be? yeah, it was like a compulsion almost. And I think some people, can take veganism or like you said, like eating clean, or raw, like eating just like an entire, like raw diet most of the time. I think they can be like eating disorders where you get so, so obsessed with that and only that, that that's all you can think about. And and especially when you feel like you're going without, which I'm not saying, I don't think if you're a vegan you have to go without. I know a lot of people might think that's not true at all. I know a lot of vegans that are very healthy And have a very vast diet. but if you're vegan. For the wrong reasons, and you don't have to be, but you're forcing that upon yourself. I think you can definitely get into eating disorder territory.

Rebecca: 36:10

yeah, No, that's a really good point. do we wanna transition into, another episode next week To continue this? I feel like there's a lot more, I feel like, we could talk about this for two more hours.

Jamie: 36:19

yeah, I think we could too. yeah, I don't know if we should do like a part two or.

Rebecca: 36:25

Yeah. that's actually a really good idea. I think we sh I think there's a lot to say and I'd like to do a little bit more research because I also don't wanna talk outta my ass. But I do wanna see like where the connect is between perfectionism, OCD and when it, like, how those coincide and what causes that. I can see one existing without the other, but I wonder like, how many times those are linked. So I'd like to do a little bit more digging around,

Jamie: 36:49

yeah, that's fine with me. I do think there's a lot to talk about, but I, think this is a good topic. I think that's why I said I was surprised we hadn't talked about this before, like, perfectionism because I think there's so much here and we always talk about how with like depression and anxiety and a DHD and autism, like those are all linked, right? but yeah, like you said with

Rebecca: 37:10

We haven't talked about it because it, it is the antithesis of perfectionism. Displaying it, like talking about it and explaining what the why behind it is basically the opposite

Jamie: 37:20

very true, yeah,

Rebecca: 37:22

it's miserable to be here. It's miserable to exist in this fucking body and brain every day is a fucking nightmare. we will be back for part two. I do wanna end this on an actual positive note. I do have a fun positive thing.

Jamie: 37:34

okay.

Rebecca: 37:35

So on Saturday, so my sister's coming tomorrow and Rachel, the one who was under a barn on Saturday, we're going to a Valentine's Day party and we're gonna be putting together ice whistle

Jamie: 37:46

Oh, nice.

Rebecca: 37:47

like those 3D printed ice like whistles that people are blowing, for ice. And I think it's gonna have more information about what to do if they come. And it's just gonna be like things you can hand out. And then we're writing, we're doing like a mass letter writing campaign to our representatives,

Jamie: 38:00

Oh,

Rebecca: 38:00

so we're all gonna write one.

Jamie: 38:01

Who organized this?

Rebecca: 38:03

my friend Brittany, the one who I trained with at the gym, she's really involved with the community. She's at the Do Better studio in Vancouver, Washington, and she has a lot of clients who I think are really like-minded and she was like, let's just put you all in a room and see what happens.

Jamie: 38:16

That's awesome. That's really great.

Rebecca: 38:18

So yeah, like we were talking, the last episode we had talking, about all the horrible shit that's happening, but like I'm really glad that

Jamie: 38:28

And

Rebecca: 38:29

someone is giving a chance to do

Jamie: 38:31

yeah, and like shit works like don't stop calling your representatives like. do it. like we, we are getting movement and things are happening, and definitely not as fast as we hope, but it matters. Like it matters so much.

Rebecca: 38:47

It really does. No. So I, I didn't wanna just do a doom and gloom So we'll be back with part two.

Jamie: 38:53

Perfectionism, OCD and burnout.

Rebecca: 38:56

yeah. This didn't go where I thought it was gonna go, but it's actually very interesting. I'm glad we went that way.

Jamie: 39:05

Maybe this is, maybe This is your OCD therapy right here, Rebecca?

Rebecca: 39:08

No, it's not. 100% is not,

Jamie: 39:11

Nope.

Rebecca: 39:11

it absolutely is not. I'm always gonna. I am always gonna. need to use hand sanitizer after I touch a menu in a restaurant.

Jamie: 39:18

Oh, of course. I wasn't saying this is gonna fix you. You are a problem. That's not what I was saying, but it's therapeutic. I have found it therapeutic today,

Rebecca: 39:27

you. I find it deeply embarrassing and humiliating, which I think is part of the perfectionist tendencies.

Jamie: 39:35

and that's probably why I said I'm recovering because I can say, Hey, this is therapeutic. Instead of everybody knows. Everybody knows now. Yeah,

Rebecca: 39:46

I am being perceived, and I do not like it.

Jamie: 39:49

Do not perceive a perfectionist.

Rebecca: 39:52

do not perceive me. All right. I guess that's the end.

Jamie: 39:55

Keep, yeah, stay safe. Stay mad

Rebecca: 39:58

has been brought to you. Yep.

Jamie: 40:00

this episode.

Rebecca: 40:01

By the patriarchy, Uncrustables and Alaska Airlines lounge.

Jamie: 40:05

Now Jackson and puppies.

Rebecca: 40:08

Oh, Jamie, I love you. This is great.

Jamie: 40:11

I love you too. Okay, bye.

Rebecca: 40:13

you guys. Go bye.

Jamie: 40:15

Okay, bye.