Jamie: 0:00

I got a little riled up about it and there's so much more I want, I just, I think like bare minimum, especially because it's the law. Hey everybody.

Rebecca: 0:21

Hi, happy Friday. Nope. Thursday. Happy Thursday.

Jamie: 0:25

When have we ever pod? No, we actually have podcasted on a Friday. I was gonna say, when have we ever, yeah. happy Thursday.

Rebecca: 0:33

yes. Actual Thursday. Happy actual Thursday. Sorry,

Jamie: 0:37

I had some PR person actually email me and say that happy almost Friday.

Rebecca: 0:42

Thursday. Oh,

Jamie: 0:43

Friday. And I was like, that's what I thought. I was like, no, that's gross.

Rebecca: 0:47

don't tease me with that. It's not nice.

Jamie: 0:49

I still think the worst though is happy Monday.

Rebecca: 0:52

How's your week going?

Jamie: 0:53

It's going, working on a lot of stuff. So that's been good. I feel like we should do an episode on ai.'cause I have a lot of things to say about that too. We both do. I know. but there was an article today that I read where, oh, I can't remember the company now, but. They actually like, I don't know if you guys are doing this, but they're actually like searching all the different chat bots for like their pillar pieces. And so they're like saying Hey, what's the best article on this? And seeing what the, because it's like you have to figure out what AI thinks now, right? Because that's what Google's showing is what AI thinks. and so they're trying to like model their content around ai, which is just like blowing my mind. Vogue just used AI models in their newest magazine, apparently. Oh, AI models. Wow. Wow. That's crazy.

Rebecca: 1:51

Imagine this. It was a busty blonde,

Jamie: 1:53

A busty blonde. Really? Huh? Surely she wasn't like also white.

Rebecca: 1:58

I have a surprise for you, Jamie.

Jamie: 2:00

What?

Rebecca: 2:00

She was so white

Jamie: 2:01

I am shook. Oh yeah. But

Rebecca: 2:04

after our LinkedIn, convo last week. LinkedIn has been extra spicy in serving me up some of the most unhinged crazy shit.

Jamie: 2:13

You've been?

Rebecca: 2:14

I sent you a couple screenshots of just but my sister messaged me and was like, I love this. I love this subreddit. She goes, this is amazing.

Jamie: 2:20

Oh, nice. good. yeah, so, uh, I kind of, I got a little upset and then fell into the LinkedIn trap today.

Rebecca: 2:29

When you messaged me, I posted on LinkedIn. I just had, I tied out, oh, Jamie, no. And then delete, delete, delete. I was just like, Jamie, why?

Jamie: 2:39

So a little background. I was talking to my sister-in-law, who, basically is an influencer on LinkedIn. she's great. I love her content. We talked about it last week, but I was telling her about the show last week and how we were making fun of the, this executive editor of Forbes or Yahoo or whatever, like posting. here's what I learned from being like a digital nomad, but then posted a photo of like them in a bikini and like how cringe. Yeah. Hot dog legs, how cringe that is. And my sister-in-law was like, you think it's cringe, but do you think it's cringe that like people make money because Aw, thanks for the Resub Marina. Thank you. Hello. and she's'cause that's the type of thing that LinkedIn rewards the algorithm is rewarding right now is like photos. Especially if they're like, of like you or a person. I was this close to also throwing a selfie on that post randomly. I was gonna do it. I was like, I'm gonna do this for science. And then I couldn't. I had one attached and I was like, this doesn't make sense. I was like, why would I attach this to this? But that's

Rebecca: 3:56

gross.

Jamie: 3:56

yes, it does. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. And so I was

Rebecca: 4:00

And when she says that's how they make money, how is that not like basically professional prostitution, genuinely asking.

Jamie: 4:06

that's what I mean, in a way, and I don't mean this like in a derogatory way, but in a way that's kinda what being as an influencer is, prostitution.

Rebecca: 4:15

I know, but when she says, it's do you have a problem with the making money? Yeah. again, on LinkedIn, A, who are you making money from? Then B, that means someone owns you and you're not being totally ethical and you're like, it just, it feels it icky. It feels icky. I don't know.

Jamie: 4:30

that's being in an influencer though, That's why we're not influencers.

Rebecca: 4:34

We have bad attitudes.

Jamie: 4:35

'cause we have bad attitudes. That's pretty accurate. anyway, I didn't tell you that part until just now, but Yeah, I was like this close and I was like, I can't, this feels too much.

Rebecca: 4:46

I would have made fun of you for so many

Jamie: 4:49

No, but do you know why I was tempted?'cause I was just like, for science, let's see, let's see if I like get better reach than normal. but maybe one day, one day when there's some sort of a segue and not let me talk about things I hate and then attach a photo of myself.

Rebecca: 5:06

Was that what the post was on? On things you hate?

Jamie: 5:09

it was just about we know how hard it is to find a job right now. And the post is just about, I'm sick of hiring managers, asking

Rebecca: 5:20

things you hate there you,

Jamie: 5:22

hiring managers, asking so much of candidates, and then also like candidates, like we aren't getting anything in return. And to be clear, like I've been on both sides clearly. Most recently, obviously looking for work and I'm on the candidate side. but yeah, and I, and in the post I just said, and there are two things that I can post it somewhere. Where is it?

Rebecca: 5:44

with, fuck you, Robert.

Jamie: 5:46

no, Rebecca was disappointed that I didn't do that, but that's fine. I don't even know where it is. Oh, I'll find it later.

Rebecca: 5:52

in the next week you can post about your new diagnosis of multiple personality disorder.

Jamie: 5:57

Here we go. No, but I said these are all the things, the hiring because Okay, what have we talked about like in past episodes, right? So obviously you need your resume.

Rebecca: 6:08

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 6:09

sometimes you need your resume in a specific format and that can differ.

Rebecca: 6:13

writing? Yep. portfolio

Jamie: 6:16

portfolio samples of your work. Sometimes

Rebecca: 6:19

videos. That was a thing.

Jamie: 6:21

oh, I forgot about that. Even a lot of people are asking for videos, like a short video, or sometimes they say oh, just a short little blurb about like why you're the best person for the job. in addition to a cover letter. Like to me it's that's what the cover letter is.

Rebecca: 6:36

That exactly. That's exactly what a cover

Jamie: 6:38

And in the application, what else do you do? You fill out all these details that are already in your resume that you sent them. So like you're doing this extra work as well. There's nothing I hate more. it just really grinds my gears is like doing the same thing or like doing extra work for no reason at all.

Rebecca: 6:58

It's inefficient. They're inefficient systems and processes.

Jamie: 7:01

pisses me off. But, and so I was listing all these things, that people expect, that hiring managers, companies expect from you. And then I said, and there's really, I think only two things, two major things that like we as candidates like are asking of you. And one is, first and foremost like respect and just common. I think decency. just email us back even if you have it automated. On like your side, like that's great to like email back candidates to be like, oh no, we're full. Or, I'm so sorry. And try to do so as soon as possible. I know people don't want to until they have a candidate completely lined up and signed and like they have they're starting in two weeks. But dear God, like I have so many friends and me who've sent hundreds upon hundreds of applications and we don't even hear back.

Rebecca: 7:56

like even a confirmation email saying if we're interested in moving forward, do a whole more thanks for sending it in. we'll get back in touch. Yeah, that would be nice.

Jamie: 8:03

yeah. and so that I think is just, that's just like respect and commend. And then the second thing was is post the fucking salary post. The rate post, the pay post, the compensation. In the job description. it's ridiculous. And that just somebody had commented and they were like, oh, I don't even apply to jobs that don't list it. And I was like, yeah, that's how I am. Except like I really needed a job. So I took a chance on some and and had to just apply anyway. especially if I thought it was something that was a really good fit. but I don't wanna do that. And then that makes me think that then what are we doing then? Are we preying on people who are, I don't wanna say desperate, but almost, yeah, you need to survive, you need money. and so they're like, we don't have to put the pay. We will just like rope people in and take'em through the process. And

Rebecca: 8:56

And I was just, I just looked at like the states that are required to put salary in and there's

Jamie: 9:03

a lot.

Rebecca: 9:04

like four, no. 14,

Jamie: 9:06

Yeah, I mean I think that's a lot like,

Rebecca: 9:08

oh no, sorry, more than 14. I can't fucking read or scroll down. It's still not 51 though. Or 50. Wow. It's been a long day. it's

Jamie: 9:16

it's numbers,

Rebecca: 9:17

Is any state that starts with an A isn't even in here at all. it's just more of the like the quote unquote blue states that have them.

Jamie: 9:25

Yeah.

Rebecca: 9:26

And so I mean there's just, to your point, if they're desperate, I'll just take what they can get.

Jamie: 9:32

but also what that means is, so it's like actually illegal and I had to talk about a company I worked for about this. If you have a job and it's open to remote, and typically when people say like remote, that can be anywhere in the US for example. so if you're open to any candidate from any state in including these states where it. Where it's the law that you have to include the salary, then you have to include the salary. You have to,

Rebecca: 10:02

remo, so remote positions essentially? Yeah.

Jamie: 10:05

They have to. And people say oh no. Like I think a lot of people think if they're based in, a certain state, like if the company's HQ is in a certain state, it goes by those rules. No, it goes by the rules of the candidates that you will get and

Rebecca: 10:19

A company in Arizona, let's say if they post a remote job, they would have to include the salary,'cause someone from California or Connecticut could possibly apply.

Jamie: 10:27

Yes. Yes. Exactly. And I had this come up with like at a company I worked for and I was like, oh, hey, I noticed.'cause I think I, it was my first time at that company hiring somebody and I was like, oh, I noticed, like we don't put this in our job. Descriptions, we should do that. And I was like, it's actually illegal since we're doing this remote. And I never heard back and never heard back. And I finally asked my manager about it and I was like, Hey, did the higher up say anything about this? And if they're gonna include it? And they decided they knew that it was illegal, but they don't care because apparently it's just a slap on the wrist if they're like caught or somebody, tattles on them. I don't know like how it works.

Rebecca: 11:13

is between 100 to 10,000 per violation. That's a pretty wide range, and I'm

Jamie: 11:19

that is a really

Rebecca: 11:20

it's not gonna be 10,000. So if it's 100 per hand slap,

Jamie: 11:25

Yeah. They're like, oh, we don't care. And it's, but to me, like that's insane. To be like, I don't care that this is illegal.

Rebecca: 11:32

the bigger thought behind it do you think though? what's the bigger thought of them being like, f fuck it. Is it because they, that means they get away with paying people less.

Jamie: 11:39

I think so. And I also think somebody had posted too on my post that it's very it seems deceptive and like secretive and that's really it. And it's just yeah, to low ball people, ash and, again, talking about things feeling gross, like that's disgusting to me. why would you not? and if you're a hiring manager at a place where they're like, oh, we don't do that. Yeah, we know we're supposed to, but we don't put it in there. I've never been given a straight answer, I just assume it's to be able to low ball people. And especially now because that's what everybody's looking to do. they're laying off, their senior most expert staff because they get paid too much and they're trying to hire people in that don't have a lot of experience. But we'll maybe do a decent job for half the pay.

Rebecca: 12:29

Yep.

Jamie: 12:30

What did Pat say here?

Rebecca: 12:31

I guess my question is if you were a company like that, though. And you have your competitors out there. Wouldn't you wanna hire the best and the brightest in order to beat your competitors? Why would you roll the chances on only getting applications from people who aren't the best of the best? there are a lot of people out there who's like I, they're not listening to salary. I'm not applying, like I'm not doing that. So why would you take those chances of losing out on potentially someone who can really help or turn things around or boost revenue or conversions? Like what? I guess that's the problem. I guess that's what I really have trouble wrapping my head around. Do they just not care? This is a genuine question. It's like I'm having funny, do they just not care? what is the reasoning behind it, do you think?

Jamie: 13:15

I don't know. I think it must stem. I, yeah, I think it must just stem from all this shame that we've always had about money and talking about money even with our friends or with our family or with like our coworkers, especially oh, I would, I should be making more than her, but I bet she's making more than me. And like I, we don't talk about it with each other. And I.

Rebecca: 13:38

I think I've mentioned Ask a manager a few times, they recently had a letter. It was about someone who had a job interview and asked about afterwards, like asked about the salary and benefits and they told him that they were no longer going to consider him because it was so rude of him to ask about the money that he wants to be paying

Jamie: 13:57

That's what I'm saying. I've been told that because I always ask, and I encourage every single one of you to do this. Even if you're scared, do this. Negotiate for yourself. You are valuable. You are so valuable, but just you have to, if they don't, I don't know if for some reason they don't have the salary or pay listed and you apply anyway and you have an interview ask in that first interview. You don't have to wait. You don't have to wait for them to bring it up. Don't wait for them to bring it up. You bring it up. I've had that happen to me though, where I've brought it up and somebody's been like, they didn't like that. I don't think it was very explicit that they weren't moving forward with me because of that. But it was very obvious to me that bothered

Rebecca: 14:41

And see, that's the thing. It's like they want to hear, I just really wanna do this job because I'm so fucking passionate about X, Y,

Jamie: 14:48

people need to live. are you kidding me?

Rebecca: 14:51

Yes. I need the Maslow's hierarchy of needs fulfilled, including shelter and food.

Jamie: 14:57

Yeah. I wanted to go back to some of the things that, pat said here that I missed. I saw some article also saying that places are cross checking people's employment dates on their resume against their LinkedIn. I just feel like these job posts are just used as info farming bullshit. Yeah, and that could be too.'cause there's a lot of that, especially on LinkedIn right now.

Rebecca: 15:17

Is it also to train their AI systems though? Do you think That's another thing I've heard going around is it's meant to train their, like AI hiring systems.

Jamie: 15:25

Yeah, but I also think that's so shitty. It's just ugh. It bothers me

Rebecca: 15:31

I worked at a place,

Jamie: 15:33

so much.

Rebecca: 15:33

no, I, I worked at a place where they just were like, people wanna work here. So we didn't have any job, like roles open. And they were just like, just post that. Like we have roles open and maybe someone amazing will apply, but you get all these people who are just like, oh yeah, but we didn't have the pay on there. We didn't have anything. And it was like these peop we got tons and tons of applications for a job that didn't exist. and, but that was a small company. So I think the rules of pay didn't. Apply to them, but still like it was just weird. was it just to see who's the most desperate, I don't know. It's weird.

Jamie: 16:05

Yeah, it just really seems like what Pat said, they treat us Jesus. There's that because they treat us like cogs that they can just keep changing out and then pocket the extra, that's exactly what's happening and

Rebecca: 16:17

Except it costs more money to fire people and replace them. Or I guess, you know what, I guess if you're not get paid, getting paid a fair salary, maybe it isn't expensive because they already saved money, not paying you the amount you deserve to be

Jamie: 16:30

They don't pay you the amount, you're the quite the amount you deserve to be paid and then they bring in someone else that they can pay even less than they deserve to be paid. My god. What do you mean you care more about the money than the privilege to work here? Yeah, that's been told to me. We've talked about that before. That's been told to us, like at companies we've already been at. When we were asking to be compensated for, a role change or a promotion, it's,

Rebecca: 16:57

And if you are applying with a company who gets squirrely about you asking the first interview, that means that you're likely not going to go far salary wise if you do get a job there, if they're that way, when you don't work there about money conversations, it's likely not going to be better.

Jamie: 17:13

no. Yeah, you're absolutely right. I didn't even think of that part of it. Abso fucking, absolutely.

Rebecca: 17:17

And then to your point about people being weird to talk about money, when you actually do have the job, if you're not unionized, there's a lot of hush around salary and people surprisingly don't talk about how much they make, which I think is a mistake.

Jamie: 17:34

I think it's scary too. This might be a good opportunity for me to talk about, when we worked at SLH, the company that we met at, I remember being on the phone with our friend Kate. She just got hired as the HR director there. Like she just got hired. This was like, I had already pretty much got the job, but she had just started and they still wanted her to talk to me. So I was on the phone with her and she had said something to the effect of, she was just like telling me more like I was asking questions and she was telling me more about, what they offer and what it's like. And she had me mentioned that they had this completely transparent, salary formula, in which not only was it transparent, showing the formula of how everyone is paid, to show. That everyone's being paid equal, including, living in LA versus living in Kentucky or Tennessee or wherever. like I would get more,'cause I live in California'cause my cost of living, so it would factor in the cost of living. but they also had this giant spreadsheet where everyone's salary was on there from the CEO all the way down. So everyone knew what everyone made. If you went to see, it's not like you had to go look, but I think who wouldn't, when, this is the first time I'd ever come across a company that did that. And and I don't even know what I said, but she could tell that I was ugh. Because I was like, that's, it was uncomfortable. It was very uncomfortable. And I think she said, she was like, yeah, I know it's uncomfortable. She's I've never been at a place that does this before either. She's but I think it's a good thing and. Now, I wish everybody did that. it was great. I don't even, I don't even think that it should have had as big of an effect on everyone and how we all felt about being paid and being paid fairly as it did. I think just like having that out there and being upfront, even the CEO, like this is what the CEO's making and, it's just fair. And then it's like when you know you're being paid fairly and you don't have to like, question it constantly, which we do a lot, because we're not being paid fairly most of the time.

Rebecca: 19:49

Do you? So for me, I just rip the bandaid off where I've been. I just tell people what I'm making or like people who I know are applying, here's what I'm making, here's what you should expect. Because it's the only way that I know to do my part as far as them possibly making a fair salary and something equal to that or similar. and you mentioned earlier there are so many articles out there who are like women. You should talk to each other about your salaries more, which fair? But really, men should be talking to women about their salaries. Because historically and even currently, they still make more than women for the same roles, even though they're not supposed to do. Somehow they do. And so if men were a little more vocal in that and were

Jamie: 20:34

Allies.

Rebecca: 20:35

allies. Exactly. So

Jamie: 20:38

We need more. More men Feminists. Male feminists please.

Rebecca: 20:41

As much as the amount of shit that I give the people of that company that we were talking about, that's the first time I've ever seen anyone in that position of power who were two men, two white men actually, who were doing something like that. So I have to give them the bare minimum award. Ladies and gentlemen. Yay. Bare minimum. Yay. No. Like I have to

Jamie: 21:02

just like the award for best hugger. that's what they gave Rebecca, you guys, she hates

Rebecca: 21:08

Best Tucker. yeah, so that's the first place I've seen that done.

Jamie: 21:11

Okay?

Rebecca: 21:12

It's never been at women led companies, have never worked at a company that did that was led by women. So they did set the bar. They did set the bar on what I expected and have never gotten ever again at any company.

Jamie: 21:26

Yep. Yeah, same. And it was like, and that was, I think there are. A, like a good handful that I know of companies, like bigger companies that do that. And, but you just never see that. So I'm not asking for that when I'm talking about pay transparency, but I would love that. Like I am such an advocate for that. Like I think that would be great. I think somebody posted, I should add that too. I should have put that on my LinkedIn post. this one guy did all of this research. He was a freelance writer and had written for a ton of like big name websites and companies and he put together a spreadsheet showing like typically this is what they pay, like including like this much for this number of words. Or this company pays per word, this company pays a flat fee of 500, like this and that. And I thought that was amazing that somebody put that together because that's super helpful for freelancers when I. When I first started freelancing, recently, this year. Yeah. Rebecca, I had to ask Rebecca'cause I technically really have never freelanced before, technically, and I had to ask her, what should my rate be? And what should I be factoring in? And she was very helpful. And like you said, that was great you sharing that info with me. I don't think I share what I make with first of all, just anyone and not unprompted. if like I had a friend that was like, Hey, what do you make? I would probably tell them, or especially if it's

Rebecca: 23:00

I meant, sorry. I meant with like coworkers. I'm sorry. I didn't mean just

Jamie: 23:04

oh.

Rebecca: 23:04

Hey friend, I'm sorry. I meant with like coworkers, like someone who's in the same job title as you, or like someone's in a role that you've been in, so you can tell them like what to expect. I'm sorry, misspoke.

Jamie: 23:15

Oh no, that's okay.

Rebecca: 23:17

go to CVS and be like, Hey, guess how much money I make?

Jamie: 23:20

that's what I was saying. That's why I was like, I wouldn't do it unprompted, but like I didn't think that's what you meant, but I just wanted to, I was specifying for me.

Rebecca: 23:28

I would like a cheeseburger and fries. And would you like to know how much money I make a year?

Jamie: 23:32

No, it's not even would you? It's and I make

Rebecca: 23:35

Let me tell

Jamie: 23:36

I make a hundred thousand dollars. yeah, that's great. I think, I don't wanna, I'm not gonna name names, but somebody I know that I'm very close with, actually was sick of seeing people get paid fairly at the company they worked at or getting paid on unfairly. Yes, I did, actually. I misspoke. and. They started like secretly like starting a spreadsheet to just be like, Hey, this is why I believe in pay transparency. And I think it'd be cool if we did it. You don't have to, but if you feel comfortable, add, and slowly, employees started like adding to this spreadsheet and so they were sharing with each other. Sure. There were some that were like, no, I'm not gonna do that. And I don't think management or the exec team liked that too much, but like they never shut it down. and this is a pretty open-minded place, so I'm surprised that they didn't just go for it. And maybe they have by now, I don't know. But like even doing something like that, like it's not, there's nothing wrong with that.

Rebecca: 24:37

What about companies who reevaluate what you make each year and bring you up to like market? market pay, because I haven't had a lot of companies, but, so where I work, they do that, and that was totally new to me. Like I've never had, and it's not like an a hundred extra dollars, like they will bump you up if that's what you're, you need to be bumped up and, that's another. I'm just trying to figure out like what to say, what to, like, how to phrase it, but it's just, again, being so open about here's how much money we're going to pay you and here's how much more money we're gonna pay you is just not a conversation

Jamie: 25:11

knowing that so like that, like I definitely don't see that, and I know this isn't what you were saying, but I definitely don't see that as something that should be in like the job description. But I think that would be great if they were like, and we do, yearly reviews, just like they say like in bonuses and, But during the interview process, like you should know that, you should know exactly, what the possibilities are for you to move up in the company and get promoted and the possibilities for your compensation to increase. And that can be like your salary for sure, but also like little cost of living. oh my God, that's what I was so frustrated with when I was laid off and looking for jobs is that all these jobs that I had been doing and getting paid like decently well for, it was like some of these were like 70, 60% of that. And so it was this massive pay cut and I'm just like, this is setting me back so far. this was me like six years ago, six, seven years ago.

Rebecca: 26:17

I wonder too if just because of the current environment they're in, companies feel comfortable, like just asking for more and paying less. they know people are out there and desperate.

Jamie: 26:27

Yeah.

Rebecca: 26:27

They know that it's really difficult to find a job, but I also don't know how, because just. Journalism. I don't know how other industries are. Maybe it's just like what we're seeing, like content people and are, I would love to hear if other industries are dealing with the same thing, like getting less from, getting more for less.

Jamie: 26:45

actually interesting.

Rebecca: 26:48

also industries out there who are like unionized. electricians, plumbers, the way my sisters talks, my sister talks about it, with her union. It's like they're very open about it and they make sure you make at least x amount of dollars and they show you how much money you're going to make as you progress throughout your career. And it's so like once you hit this mark, then you're gonna make this much money. And once you hit this, you're gonna make this much money. oh, see, are we talking about, we can't be talking about unionizing, but also that's why people unionize. I.

Jamie: 27:16

it's just, I guess

Rebecca: 27:18

There

Jamie: 27:18

patriarchy and consumerism.

Rebecca: 27:20

like New York, I think it's New York State has a freelancers union. I don't know if all the states have, and I don't know if you have to live in New York to join, but there is a freelancers union.

Jamie: 27:28

Oh yeah. I did hear about that, but I don't know much about it.

Rebecca: 27:31

Yeah. And they do have like health services. Actually, I'll just put it in the chat.

Jamie: 27:36

I'm actually,

Rebecca: 27:37

they offer your insurance.

Jamie: 27:40

in my head right now. Hi, Rob. Hi. Welcome. I like now I'm just like, Rebecca, we're journalists. Let's do this. Like massive. I'm sure somebody has done one, but I wanna do like a massive study on pay transparency and I want to find out like who does it and what their turnover rate is and what in industries have better pay transparency. if you're an engineer looking for a job, is your salary always in that jd or the job description or, or not? Because you're right.

Rebecca: 28:16

great idea. which makes me think some people

Jamie: 28:19

Yeah, that's what I said. Yeah, I think, I'm sure. I

Rebecca: 28:21

oh, sorry. I'm sorry. I was Googling, interesting. So tech, okay, so tech is listed as like one with very strong patron transparency, which. Makes a lot of sense because I guess for those you, I guess for those you do wanna attract the best of the best, especially if you're a startup and or like a major tech conglomerate, that, that does make sense. HR also government, and also I think government job jobs are different, right? Like government, jobs, I cannot talk today,

Jamie: 28:48

happens.

Rebecca: 28:49

it's just been hours of meetings all week long. Sorry. Governments have, like government jobs have to post the salaries, right? aren't there federal laws where that has to be posted?

Jamie: 28:58

I don't know that for sure. That sounds correct to me. But,

Rebecca: 29:03

government.

Jamie: 29:04

I dunno the laws on that. And I know it's at a state level too, it's not all states, Ash says, yes, government salaries have to be public. They're public, but does that mean they have to include them on the job description, I wonder?

Rebecca: 29:19

Yeah, but then you, you can just look it up to get an idea. that's at least more paid transparent. Oh, and that's the other thing I wanted to, I knew what I wanted to mention. So there are like, what is it, ZipRecruiter and Glassdoor out there, they list the average salary. And there have been multiple times where I like think I, I've gone in and we're not, are you fucking, no, that's far too high. We will not be paying that. And it's like the average salary and

Jamie: 29:42

I always find those to be very low on like Glassdoor at least. Hey Shep.

Rebecca: 29:48

yeah, I've had people low balling, but this was also, I don't even know how many years ago. so things might have changed, but I don't know.

Jamie: 29:56

As someone who's been looking for a job, Rebecca. I'm just kidding.

Rebecca: 30:00

Yeah. Wow. Again, another episode of things we don't

Jamie: 30:03

Yeah, I just, I got a little riled up about it and there's so much more I want, that's like Jamie's wishlist for pay transparency for everybody, at every company. But yeah, I just, I think like bare minimum, especially because it's the law. If you're hiring remote from anywhere in the us, put the compensation in there, put the pay, don't put like, compensation is commiserate with, Ty, blah, blah,

Rebecca: 30:34

Oh, that, yes. Oh, and then they ask you then they're not, wait, they're not, that's they're not allowed to ask you. What you make, but they are allowed to ask you like what's your ideal salary? Which is,

Jamie: 30:45

do that.

Rebecca: 30:46

so you're right. So you're weeded out Potentially. But sometimes they're only like the fields I've come up with where it's you can only enter a number. you can't enter comm, measure it with experience.

Jamie: 30:56

Oh, they can say that they cannot post the salary, and they can tell you that's what it is. But then when they ask you Yeah. On your job application, it's like a dropdown and you have to like, choose

Rebecca: 31:07

And it's required. Yes, and it's required. Like you can't move forward without hitting it. I was like, oh my God.

Jamie: 31:13

I'm like, I'll put the top one, I'll put the highest. and yeah, not everyone does those dropdowns, but those, especially, those are fucked up. Usually it's like a box and in the box I say like I put, I literally put like TBD, I'll be like TBDI do. That's what I do. Like it's that why, I'm not kidding. That why I never got an email back.

Rebecca: 31:34

CPD.

Jamie: 31:35

it's TBD. It's like we're gonna discuss it. I'm not just gonna,

Rebecca: 31:40

apparently we're not gonna discuss it because that's considered rude. Also, in a very tangential vein, I found out that some high managers have what's called the coffee cup test, where they offer you something to drink during your interview, and then if you just leave afterwards, or if you just leave the cup or you don't like, either offer to put it in the sink or throw it away, they won't

Jamie: 32:01

Who's doing in-person interviews right now? still, that's my question. I know

Rebecca: 32:06

I don't

Jamie: 32:06

it's still a thing, but that's awful

Rebecca: 32:09

I know. And I saw it on TikTok and I was like, no, that can't be a thing. And I was reading all the comments. I was like, oh my God, it is such a thing. It's not even funny. Holy crap.

Jamie: 32:17

your gu. These candidates are your guest.

Rebecca: 32:19

That's what so many people put, and they were like, we're the guests like we are in your home. So the mindset is already there on, they don't consider them guests. They consider them, you should be grateful

Jamie: 32:30

it's just people being unhappy. you're unhappy. You've always had to, in the work before you got paid for it, you've always had to do this, and so they, they don't want that for other people, it's like, I never had that,

Rebecca: 32:44

that you had that boss. Remember you had the boss who you were like, who was like, I had to work for free basically until I, like I was able to get this salary. And so even when there is quote unquote transparency, the conversations are still stuck way back when. And these weird mindsets on what salary actually is and how much you deserve.

Jamie: 33:04

Fuck you. I got mine. Just it's, yeah, it's insane. It's just, and I think, okay, like at a state level, yes, that would be great if all across the US this was a thing and it had to be you, like it was illegal. For anybody not to put the salary, that would be wonderful. But I also think like it's up to the hiring manager. Because even if you're at a company to an extent,'cause even if you're at a company that doesn't do that, and says oh no, we never put salary in our job descriptions. We don't do that. We don't do that. I think it's up to you to say, Hey, wait a minute, why? That's really not great. don't we want to attract the right people and like the right person for the job, and sometimes too this

Rebecca: 33:49

what I was saying, like what if we get a subpar candidate? Is it just bleed that stone till it's dry and then get another one? what is the point?

Jamie: 33:57

it's not great.

Rebecca: 33:58

Jamie, how do we change this?

Jamie: 34:00

Don't put that on me. Fuck.

Rebecca: 34:02

that's what I, that's what I mean. the pay transparency started that we experienced in 2017, which is almost 10 years ago, and I've never experienced it again. So it's not like something that got better or, it's not like something that spread. and I've worked at a lot of companies since then, so I, who pushes for it? Is it the hiring? Is it, to your point, the hiring managers, is it hr? is it the people who run the company? who

Jamie: 34:26

think it's all of us. I think everybody in every position at every level, should be doing something about it. And a lot of times it's like something small, like I said, like just bringing up to like your executive team or HR say Hey, your recruitment team, whoever, Hey, I noticed we don't do this. And first of all, this is illegal, but second, since you don't seem to care about that, like these are the reasons like we'll get better people. Likely. not, that's not always true. because I do think people are just talking about money, especially when it comes to professionally. Is scary and people are afraid to do it. People are afraid to ask what the pay is. People are afraid to negotiate. People just wanna take what they're given. Even though, like when they offer you a salary, I would say 98% of the time you can negotiate and get more. Sometimes that may not be just straight to your salary. Sometimes that may be negotiating a signing bonus or, some other benefits that they give, but

Rebecca: 35:31

and that's where the mindset of who you are as a worker needs to shift. Except in today's current climate, that's likely not going to happen. But instead of you knowing your worth, a lot of people are afraid of oh, I don't get this. we're so tight with salaries, we're living paycheck to paycheck. Most of America that it's like, if I don't get this job, I default on my car loan, or I default on

Jamie: 35:53

that's what I'm saying.

Rebecca: 35:54

And so they're terrified. And if everyone was like, actually, you need workers. And if we all decided no, we're not gonna do it, then that would change. But because there aren't,

Jamie: 36:06

Yeah.

Rebecca: 36:06

too many people are hurting. So it's just, it's never, it's not gonna get better anytime soon.

Jamie: 36:12

this is depressing.

Rebecca: 36:14

I know again,

Jamie: 36:14

and we all die at the end of this, so

Rebecca: 36:17

Rob was like, are you guys playing, hitting animals afterwards?

Jamie: 36:20

hitting animals.

Rebecca: 36:22

I was like, we hitting animals? And I was like, that's

Jamie: 36:25

No.

Rebecca: 36:25

hitting animals. It's no,

Jamie: 36:27

Now we sound like terrible people.

Rebecca: 36:29

I know. I was like, that's not even,

Jamie: 36:30

Fuck you, Robert.

Rebecca: 36:31

know.

Jamie: 36:32

Fuck you, Rob.

Rebecca: 36:33

I was like, no, but also that's not the name. But that's very funny. But yeah, just not enough people are talking about it, not people are having conversations and, okay, see, again, I keep thinking we're, I, I keep realizing we're talking ourselves into communism.'cause if the whole country decided to do that, but then that's fucking communism and people who are afraid of that. So that's again, not gonna happen.

Jamie: 36:52

Yeah, Ash says, and even as many of us hurt from our paychecks, too many people continue licking the boots of our corporate overlords. We need to take our power back. Yeah, it's true. And but it's I don't fault people for doing that. because sometimes that's just a response to, trauma and also just I really need this job. I can't do anything that might, change that. Like I don't wanna piss anybody off. and I understand

Rebecca: 37:20

there are a large, I'm sorry. I say there are a large number of people out there who don't want you to make as much money as they do. Like they, they genuinely don't want you to make as much and they want to make more. And they're not ever going to, raise all boats. They don't wanna do any of that. And that's just, I think the whole American, me mindset,

Jamie: 37:41

it's sad, man.

Rebecca: 37:42

just. It's ugly and sad, and yet we are stuck and unable to do anything about it.

Jamie: 37:49

Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'll go journalist, Jamie and do some crazy extensive study.

Rebecca: 37:56

look at the US labor and statistics, and just break that out. You should break that out by, by industry and then go from there. But see, that's average though. That's the thing that's average. Those are averages and that's not I dunno how we're gonna do this.

Jamie: 38:09

Yeah.

Rebecca: 38:10

you have a project to work on.

Jamie: 38:12

I'm more referring to the people who act like temporarily embarrassed millionaires and who will never have the money of the 1% than the rest of us who are traumatized,

Rebecca: 38:22

Temper. Oh, no. I'm a little rich now. Don't look at me.

Jamie: 38:25

temporarily Embarrassed millionaires. Yeah.

Rebecca: 38:29

Yep. Again, I try to do what I can. I work at a company that's also very open about pay, which I'm very grateful for, but that is a large company. It's not a startup. It's not a little company that doesn't have to follow those laws. And actually, maybe that's the thing. If it's a big enough company where you could really get a payout if you know you were fined, or if someone did decide to sue for not having that kind of information, maybe that's what it is they're more likely to follow the laws because they have more to lose.

Jamie: 38:57

Wait, who are you talking about? Who has more to lose,

Rebecca: 38:59

I'm talking about so I know our company is very good about pay transparency, but it's a very large company. So I'm wondering if like, when you have large companies like that, they're more likely to, they're more likely to do something like that because if someone were to li litigate against them than they would have a lot more to

Jamie: 39:14

right?

Rebecca: 39:15

plus they typically have more jobs, so there's more potentials for fines. I don't know. I'm just trying to think about

Jamie: 39:20

Like why? Yeah.

Rebecca: 39:22

we should have Kate on genuine. Like I would genuinely love to talk to Kate about this and I feel

Jamie: 39:26

so busy, but I would love to,

Rebecca: 39:28

I know we should talk to an HR professional'cause they could, instead of us just going, woo, we don't know. We should probably talk to someone who does

Jamie: 39:35

One thing I should point out that I had forgotten, I'm pretty sure that having to disclose salary is only for companies that are like more than, I wanna say,

Rebecca: 39:46

people.

Jamie: 39:47

2015,

Rebecca: 39:48

I think so some of'em were 15, maybe it varies by state. I'm not

Jamie: 39:52

So if we were hiring for the Burnout Collective, for example, we wouldn't have to, but would we? Abso fucking Absolutely. Of course we would, but, ugh.

Rebecca: 40:00

Oh, some of'em are just, some of them are like with just at least one employee. So Colorado, it's like you have to, if you have even one employee, you have to post it.

Jamie: 40:07

good for them.

Rebecca: 40:08

that's great.

Jamie: 40:09

Yeah.

Rebecca: 40:10

Hawaii is at least 50, but most of them are between one to 15. that's nice though. You have to work there.

Jamie: 40:18

people. Followed that, if people stuck to that. Yeah. I don't know what it is. It does, it really just feels like ego and it's, I don't know.

Rebecca: 40:30

I dunno if it's ego, I just, I think it's no regard and kind of carelessness and it's like we might, we've been getting away with it for X number, we're not gonna or people saying it's not really important. Kinda like compliance rules. it's not really employer. Like I've had people say that, but it, that's what I mean, is

Jamie: 40:44

you get

Rebecca: 40:44

of that laissez-faire attitude? So

Jamie: 40:47

yeah,

Rebecca: 40:47

Or if there, or are the higher ups being like, if you don't post it, if you have to,

Jamie: 40:52

yeah. Gross. And I think it's just, it's that stigma too. I think a lot of people like don't even know the reason. Like even some exec teams, if you were to ask, just be like one, which is my

Rebecca: 41:05

because that's how it's always been,

Jamie: 41:06

That's how it's always been. Yeah. My fucking favorite answer ever. it was at one company where that was their answer to me. Anytime I brought up a way to streamline a process or change something for the better, to make everything easier for everybody, I'm like, why do we do it this way? Why don't we do it this way? we've just always done it that way. I was like, guys, be better. Do better. Listen to yourselves.

Rebecca: 41:32

Yeah, I don't know. I wish we had more, like more information or a better conclusion about this, but again, it seems to be that we are at the mercy of

Jamie: 41:42

Our corporate

Rebecca: 41:42

right now, and it's not the other way around.

Jamie: 41:44

yeah, that's always how it is and how it's been.

Rebecca: 41:47

We're just gonna change the name of this pod to why not communism?

Jamie: 41:50

Or maybe communism. Maybe communism,

Rebecca: 41:53

How about communism?

Jamie: 41:55

commie question mark.

Rebecca: 41:56

And here's the question, why? Again, like I just, I, I can't, I continue to try to think my way around this and I still cannot wrap my head around someone not wanting to help someone else

Jamie: 42:08

Yeah,

Rebecca: 42:09

and Gate keeping that kind of information and not wanting,

Jamie: 42:13

it is very gatekeeper. Yeah.

Rebecca: 42:15

Yeah. Do you perceive others as a threat and they could potentially take over your job? if you bring them up with you, I just, again,

Jamie: 42:23

why I say ego. That's why I say it's ego too, not wholly, I think that's just part of it that's people feeling threatened. like when my manager, when I was like, oh yeah, what's the comp increase for me taking on X, Y, and Z responsibilities in addition to what I've been doing? Oh, you need to learn to, work for it and like then we'll compensate you. That's what I did. I worked my way up and I showed them that's not how it's supposed to work.

Rebecca: 42:52

I need to be like, I hate to break it to you, but you were also taken advantage

Jamie: 42:55

Yeah.

Rebecca: 42:56

they were a person of color too, right? Like they weren't a white guy, which, so they were exploited too. That makes it like double worse.

Jamie: 43:04

Yeah.

Rebecca: 43:05

That's such a bummer.

Jamie: 43:07

We just have to refuse to be complicit in our own exploitation. Ladies and gentlemen,

Rebecca: 43:14

Yep. Again, communism question mark.

Jamie: 43:17

communism. It's like one of those six feet under commercials that they used to do at the beginning of the series. They stopped doing that, I think, didn't they? In the series? I didn't like that they stopped that.

Rebecca: 43:28

Are you spoiling something for me, Jamie? I think you just spoiled a TV show for

Jamie: 43:33

I did not,

Rebecca: 43:34

No spoilers. No spoilers about that 25-year-old show.

Jamie: 43:38

it's also not a spoiler.'cause I would never, Rebecca, I would never Communism. Yes,

Rebecca: 43:44

I would actually like us to, so I just, we can talk more with Mike, but I actually think you and I should play journalist and I would like to do a follow up episode on our own show about this,

Jamie: 43:55

Yeah.

Rebecca: 43:56

right now I feel a little too dumb cu talking, even though it's not, but I'm just like,

Jamie: 44:00

Yeah,

Rebecca: 44:00

I wanna have numbers, like I wanna have numbers, you know what I mean? And then I wanna be like communist. So I do I, yeah, I think we should have that. I would really love to do that with you.

Jamie: 44:10

Yeah, I would too.

Rebecca: 44:11

oh my God. We get to do writing. Research journalism, and actually as I'm saying this out loud and realizing we have our own discord, there's nothing stopping us from creating something similar like we have friends in similar industries, or we could even start our own database to start gathering information

Jamie: 44:29

That's actually really cool.

Rebecca: 44:30

positions. State to state,

Jamie: 44:32

should do that. That should be part of it.

Rebecca: 44:34

all three of our listeners let us,

Jamie: 44:36

email us at. podcast@burnoutcollective.com. Tell us.

Rebecca: 44:42

can have an open Google sheet. Why don't we, hold on, let's just, let's start like an open sheet, we'll start a thing. We'll organize it first, but I really do think that would be

Jamie: 44:50

It should be a form

Rebecca: 44:51

useful and helpful.

Jamie: 44:53

Yeah,

Rebecca: 44:54

Cool. No, I like that a

Jamie: 44:55

be awesome. Let's do that. Look. Look at us doing

Rebecca: 45:00

We turn that around. I'm proud of us. Turn that around.'cause it was, I was like, I don't wanna sit here and bitch and moan, but I feel like I don't know what to do either. But this, again, I think it's just information. I, it's the lack of information and I want and people

Jamie: 45:14

It is. Yeah. What do they say? Information's power. Knowledge is power.

Rebecca: 45:18

I forgot where I read it, but someone was like, if you are the only person who, people who knows how to do that one thing and you are not allowed to go on vacation, you're not getting paid enough.

Jamie: 45:27

Never be the only person who can do something.

Rebecca: 45:30

that's the kind of mentality I want people if when they're asking for salary, you deserve so much money for what you do. And to not be afraid. And I wish we were there yet, we're not there yet. companies unfortunately still hold the cards or whatever was said, but I would like to be able to get to a point where people show up asking for their value.

Jamie: 45:49

Yeah. That's hard to do. But also if any of you ever need. Advice on doing that, whether like negotiating a salary or a raise or asking for a raise and'cause there is that stigma. I was like that too, and it took a fucking white man to, tell me like, no, you need to be doing this. Don't tell them how much you expect. They need to give you a number and then you work off that. Now though, I will tell them what I expect and what I expect is like on the fucking high end, because if you're gonna ask me, that's what I expect. but I get that it's hard and it is scary. And I think that's one of the, I don't wanna say problems, but I think that's a big part of it, is that a lot of people are afraid for different reasons to

Rebecca: 46:40

Because enough people have lost opportunities because they dared to ask. And so again, I would say proportionally it's smaller, but those are the ones that stick out of you, and people don't wanna be that one person who lost out on a job opportunity.

Jamie: 46:53

Yeah, I like this

Rebecca: 46:55

It sucks that there's a level of fear. I'm also wondering

Jamie: 46:58

be clear. I don't like this. I'm just what we're gonna do, go on.

Rebecca: 47:01

Again, I'm wondering if there's any, anything into how people are raised, if it's in a religion or if it's in a religious household and the way that money is talked about or not talked about, and how there might be not a lot of critical thinking skills, or you're taught to what is it? Like work with a happy heart. Do you know what I mean? Like you're taught all these things that don't. I'm

Jamie: 47:20

I know. I know you're serious. But I'm gonna start saying that to you. If like you complain about something, you're like, Ugh, I hate this. I'm gonna be like, Rebecca, you should really be working with a happy heart right now.

Rebecca: 47:31

Yeah, but I, so there's a, there's an inherent guilt for people to either ask for more money or feel like they deserve more because it's I should just be happy. Do you know what I mean? So I think there's a lot there to, to figure out, like, why, I swear to God, if we and this podcast and someone's already written this thesis paper, I'm gonna be so fucking mad.

Jamie: 47:49

I'm sure there's studies and like I want us to use those, like to our benefit and to include that. But I don't know if someone did exactly what we're thinking. Maybe they did.

Rebecca: 48:00

Alright.

Jamie: 48:00

shit, what was I just gonna tell you? Oh look, it's the raccoon report.

Rebecca: 48:04

I'm not reading that.

Jamie: 48:05

what, come on. While you were talking, there was something I thought of.

Rebecca: 48:09

God punishing you for saying you're gonna tell me to have a happy heart. Every time I complain,

Jamie: 48:13

Rebecca, please. Really, you should just be working with a happy heart.

Rebecca: 48:17

God's already punishing us. What are you talking

Jamie: 48:19

And also yeah. why do you think we only have three listeners? We're just kidding. We love you guys. We love you so much.

Rebecca: 48:25

We love all

Jamie: 48:26

just very self-deprecating. the bot summary of my comments is sending me dead. Yeah. Dead. Dead. Yeah.

Rebecca: 48:34

we are still working on getting guests for our next two episodes.

Jamie: 48:37

If you'd like to be a guest, please let

Rebecca: 48:40

you know what? We should also reach out to Morgan,'cause Morgan is in HR and like talent development and talent. Yeah. We should also reach out to Morgan. I feel like Morgan would have some good answers for this too.

Jamie: 48:51

And Kate? Yeah. Aw, thanks Ash. Yeah, that's all I got. Now let's go work on this.

Rebecca: 48:57

that feeling. Thank you guys for joining us. We really appreciate it. we're on episode 33, which is crazy to me. So

Jamie: 49:04

doing it.

Rebecca: 49:04

we're,

Jamie: 49:05

so happy. We're so neuro divergent and we're yeah, we're even LinkedIn official. We're not hiding it anymore.

Rebecca: 49:11

We came out on LinkedIn.

Jamie: 49:13

Oh my God. We did. It's true. yeah, so follow the Burnout Collective on LinkedIn. there's nothing

Rebecca: 49:19

Joiner discard

Jamie: 49:20

even know how to add Rebecca to the group. yeah, join our discard. and we love talking about this stuff too. So if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, I have so much to say, and I have opinions on this and this, and feel free, email us or, if you can contact us in another way, if you're like a good friend and you wanna text us or Discord message us, please join the Discord. And, talk about it there, let's discuss it there. we would love that.

Rebecca: 49:46

Yeah. Yeah. Please do.

Jamie: 49:48

And tell us how much money you make. I'm just kidding. all right, everybody, thank you so much.

Rebecca: 49:54

Go away. We're done.

Jamie: 49:55

Goodbye.

Rebecca: 49:57

I stole my favorite. Sign up for yours. Go away. We're done.

Jamie: 49:59

I don't even know why I said that.

Rebecca: 50:01

I don't either, but still my favorite.

Jamie: 50:03

All right, Finn.

Rebecca: 50:04

Okay, love you. Bye.