Jamie: 0:00

I don't know guys. I think she lost it. She's not the spiteful. Rebecca we once knew

Rebecca: 0:05

Oh my God. I'm gonna get spied into being spiteful.

Jamie: 0:09

spite it into me. That's what I'm trying to do. Is it working?

Rebecca: 0:15

Yeah,

0:18

I am Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

Jamie: 0:26

Hello.

Rebecca: 0:29

Hi, welcome back.

Jamie: 0:33

Happy Thursday. No,

Rebecca: 0:36

Happy Thursday we made it.

Jamie: 0:39

feel like it's not a happy Thursday though.

Rebecca: 0:43

I'm gonna say for the next three years, it's probably not gonna be a happy any day

Jamie: 0:46

The only good thing about Thursdays is the podcast.

Rebecca: 0:51

That is true.

Jamie: 0:52

A very happy Thursday, the day before payday. Aisha, pay manic. Thanks for being here. PTO.

Rebecca: 1:06

PT fucking O,

Jamie: 1:10

you are cutting out a little bit and I don't know why.

Rebecca: 1:13

I don't know why either. Again, it's a dick's with away from my face.

Jamie: 1:20

I don't know why it's

Rebecca: 1:22

Because it's Thursday.

Jamie: 1:25

We wanted to talk about taking time off, being shamed for taking time off, whether it's like direct shame I guess, or just like subtle cues you see and like things happening, like maybe even you don't see like your superiors taking time off and so you're like, well, if they don't take time off, I shouldn't.

Rebecca: 1:53

Yeah,

Jamie: 1:54

yeah,

Rebecca: 1:54

are. If you're not, oh, sorry. I thought, yeah, if we're gonna, if, if you're not like a good manager or if you don't have good management examples of people who emphasize vacation or emphasize taking care of yourself, you're not gonna do it. You're not gonna learn how to do it, especially if that's your first foray into the workplace.

Jamie: 2:18

If you don't have a good manager, if you don't have a manager that, like as a manager, I really think, and we don't get this, I know you and I make sure to be like this as managers, but you don't typically get a manager who. Encourages you. So like, is verbally like, Hey, you haven't taken time off this year yet. Or like, Hey, do you have any time off coming up if you don't like, think about getting some scheduled? because we've all, like, I know we've worked at startups where they have, completely unlimited vacation and, but they don't like encourage it, but it's still kind of like frowned upon.

Rebecca: 3:06

Unlimited ation is used as a perk and a way to get people in the door, but it's never unlimited. It's, it's not, it's flexible. Then they call it flexible, flexible, PTO really, but it's not unlimited and there are a hundred percent limits on it.

Jamie: 3:24

The last few places I have had unlimited PTO, I have used it as unlimited PTO and I have not had problems. or like maybe at the most, maybe like some, somebody like made a comment, just like a side. But overall, yeah, but it took me so long to be able to feel okay taking time off.

Rebecca: 3:49

You're very good at. I mean, you, you are very good at,

Jamie: 3:52

good at it now. I think

Rebecca: 3:54

are,

Jamie: 3:55

I'm good at vacationing. I'm good at not working, is what Rebecca's saying.

Rebecca: 3:59

No, I mean, you take it when you should take it

Jamie: 4:02

Yeah. And

Rebecca: 4:04

and then you have to be like, bitch, you need to take time off.

Jamie: 4:07

mm-hmm. I'm always telling Rebecca she needs to take time off, but you are now.

Rebecca: 4:16

well, I think it started too, I worked at, so my second job ever, I worked at a startup and I couldn't even go on a honeymoon because they're like, we need you back here at the office. So I had like a three day weekend to get married and then I didn't go on a honeymoon.'cause you know, big things were

Jamie: 4:34

Wait, has Rob still not taking you on a honeymoon?

Rebecca: 4:38

we've been busy with, there was the pandemic and. Life and moving. We'll go eventually.

Jamie: 4:45

I mean, you were already married 10 years when the pandemic happened. Listen to these excuses, Rebecca. You're part of the problem.

Rebecca: 4:54

yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. I have a bad example. I don't take time off. And then when you work at places as a young adult, when you haven't really worked before and they really frown upon it, or they just flat out tell you, no, you can't take off right now, which is what was told me. You're just like, okay, well then I won't do anything

Jamie: 5:12

And you take that with you from job to job too.

Rebecca: 5:16

And then things change so drastically when you do take time off, especially at startups that then there's a fear of like, well, shit, I'm gonna lose my fucking job.

Jamie: 5:25

There's that too. Yeah.

Rebecca: 5:28

have you gotten laid off like right after you came back from PTO?

Jamie: 5:36

the most recently, I, I'm trying to think because I went on vacation with you remember? And then I got COVID and

Rebecca: 5:46

Yeah.

Jamie: 5:48

so I was off for well, I had COVID for like two weeks and then I was off on vacation for a week, so I was gone for about three weeks and I, I did keep into communication with my manager because I didn't expect to get COVID. I expected to come back. How long after that were the layoffs? So the layoff was in like October. That was maybe close to August when I got back. So it was like three months after. But a lot of people got laid off, so I don't think it had anything to do that. But I'm sure there were some people who saw how long I was off and were wondering,

Rebecca: 6:28

Student loan hero is mine. I had just taken time off. And then came back. We all got laid

Jamie: 6:36

Have you like internalized that? You're like, no, I can't take time off.'cause that's what happens. No.

Rebecca: 6:42

Genuinely though. Genuinely. Or the other worst thing is you go away and because the team is so small that only you know how to do your job. So everyone is fucked it up while you were gone and then you have even more work to fix or no one did the work'cause they don't know how and only you can do it and you're just so good at it. So then you have however much time of work you left for less your regular work to fit,

Jamie: 7:08

and all. Yeah. And all the work you have to do to like prepare to be off and then the work you have to do to like catch up. I think that's almost the worst part about taking time off from work. is going back? No, but like seriously is going back and catching up.'cause I feel like sometimes the first two or three days I'm still catching up on emails, slack messages, questions from writers, like stuff from, I don't know, it just feels super overwhelming when you get back.

Rebecca: 7:48

Yep. I, yeah, I, I, it's just been the last couple years where I trust enough that there's a team that I'm on that has enough people and enough people to cover what I do, where I can go away and not have to worry about it. Because before, like even when you do take BTO, I was usually bringing in my work computer with me to just check. And I think, I think that's because of the nature of startups. Most of my previous positions have been for startups, so working for a company now that's established and we have a larger team and there's more people who can do what I do and cover it is

Jamie: 8:22

probably people you trust too, that you're like, I know

Rebecca: 8:24

hundred

Jamie: 8:25

do a good job. Yeah.

Rebecca: 8:27

This is the first place. I've never brought my work computer with me on vacation.

Jamie: 8:31

Nice. good.

Rebecca: 8:33

That's sad though.

Jamie: 8:35

when's your next vacation planned? Like

Rebecca: 8:38

we're going to August.

Jamie: 8:39

cool.

Rebecca: 8:41

Yeah. But startups, startups really frown on any PTO.

Jamie: 8:48

Yeah. Yeah. I remember like that

Rebecca: 8:52

Yep.

Jamie: 8:53

even. I'm still like that kind of,'cause what did I tell you? I was like. It's like, oh, I put Slack on my phone and you were like, Ugh, why? Because like, I do like, like for me, I just like to, I dunno, I read one of those articles I sent you when we were talking about this, I'll link it in the show notes, but it was talking about how actually millennials are the worst at taking time off and they were ta

Rebecca: 9:17

happened right when we started working. Isn't that what happened?

Jamie: 9:19

well I think what they were saying is like, we started working kind of around like more of like a boom in like technology. And at the time it was kind of new to be able to like do everything on your phone and blah, blah blah. And so like, it felt good to always have, you know, your, your. Finger on the pulse of like what was going on at work, even when you were gone, even when you were like out at a doctor's appointment, And so I think we got so used to that, that now we just automatically do it. So even when we do take time off, we still get on our phone and check in with people, or we get on our phone and reply to comments or emails or Slack messages and yeah.

Rebecca: 10:15

I won't do that. I won't do that anymore. I won't do

Jamie: 10:18

Good.

Rebecca: 10:18

refuse to have Slack on my phone. I won't do it. Like that's time. I think, I dunno if it's'cause I've gotten older or'cause I feel more secure, but I just am like, no, this is not an emergency. Anything that happens here at this place is not an emergency.

Jamie: 10:32

Yeah, very true.

Rebecca: 10:34

Actually anywhere I've worked, it's not an emergency, but they make it feel like emergencies

Jamie: 10:39

Yeah, they do. They make it feel like life or death for sure.

Rebecca: 10:43

yeah, and with startups, because they have all the quote perks, like we have a keg in the kitchen and free snacks and we cater lunch every day.

Jamie: 10:50

We have a foosball

Rebecca: 10:51

they do. Yeah. So it's kind of like work and play. So it's like you're getting a vacation, but really though, and that's the messaging you get, it's like, well, why would you take time off? You have. Everything here

Jamie: 11:04

when I,

Rebecca: 11:04

and, uh,

Jamie: 11:05

oh, go ahead.

Rebecca: 11:07

no, no, no, no. It's fine.

Jamie: 11:08

I was gonna say, when I was working a hybrid role, which was the first job I had when I moved out to la, I was in office I think two or three days a week, and they would order dinner but have it arrive at like seven or seven 30 and they would like announce it right at like five when people were like getting ready to leave and they'd be like, oh, we have this coming. Or like, we have, and it would always be like, really good pizza or like really good, just like a really good restaurant and.

Rebecca: 11:36

Then a speech pizza.

Jamie: 11:38

What a Venice Beach pizza.

Rebecca: 11:41

Then a speech pizza, yeah.

Jamie: 11:43

yeah. So that's what they would do to like, get people to say later they're like, oh, we give you dinner. And like a lot of us, were very young too, right? And we're living in LA so we're already like really trying to make ends meet. and so it's like, oh, free food. Like, okay, like I could use that then I don't have to like buy dinner or I can save my groceries for this weekend, you know? So it was very appealing. I did it sometimes, but a lot of the time I was just like, we know what you're doing.

Rebecca: 12:17

Yeah. Yeah. And with startups too, everything changes so quickly. So if you're gone for a week, legitimately so many changes and processes like that, it's all been changed by the time you get back and then you feel totally lost, and then you make mistakes because you can't do your job. And then it's like, are you even putting in effort? It's like, no, you guys changed everything while I was gone. What is happening?

Jamie: 12:42

Oh my gosh. That was me when I came back finally after COVID, because I think those two weeks I had COVI, that was when I had a new direct report under me. Maddie was coming under me. And I know it wasn't like the biggest deal, but like I don't want somebody to start under me and then I'm just not there for her, like her first two weeks. I'm sure she would've preferred I was there too, but like I know she was like, oh, no big deal. But like I did spend extra effort. Like I made her like a sheet that was like, Hey, these are the things you can do. Have so and so. Check on these and give you feedback. If you need help do X, Y, Z. if you're still looking for something to do after you complete these, you can do this or ask our manager. So yeah, that was not fun.

Rebecca: 13:34

think, no, God no. And I think as we become, as, as we evolve in our roles and we get higher and higher up the ladder, more and more of what you do, revenue and SEO. Is dependent on like what you do. And that's different from where you're just like, a monkey, like a writer monkey. Now it's like I have to give monthly reports on revenue and we have to look at traffic. And why did it,

Jamie: 13:59

you remember being a writer monkey?

Rebecca: 14:01

Yeah. And then I was like, I hate this. I'm gonna be an editor.

Jamie: 14:06

Someone

Rebecca: 14:06

But there's,

Jamie: 14:07

and you were like, I know I'm gonna do that.

Rebecca: 14:11

yeah, there's a fear though. There's a fear though of just like, I'm gone for a week. I don't, I am, I'm currently in control of revenue and traffic. A lot happens or doesn't happen in a week. And so it's just, it's, and I don't say this to be a martyr. I know I'm a bad example and I still should take it, but there's just this fear at the back of my head that like, you go away for a week, it crashes and burns, and then you come back and it's gonna be on your head.

Jamie: 14:43

Yeah, I guess that did happen a little bit when I got back. I think it was like, oh, like your team wasn't producing as much this month, and it was like, did what we could. I still, like I did, I even talked to. I would talk to people who were under me, like the editors that were under me during that time, even though I was off because I just wanted to like, check in with them and make sure things were moving as much as they could without me. but it was like, oh, your numbers are like way down for August. So like, this isn't good. And it's like, I was off for

Rebecca: 15:22

I was dead. I was dead, honestly, for half of August.

Jamie: 15:25

like, yeah, I took a week off, but I was also like, I had COVID for the first time for two weeks, would've been here if I could have. and so yeah, maybe that, maybe that felt like a little shammy. I think overall it was understood and I didn't feel like too shamed, but, yeah, maybe a little bit.

Rebecca: 15:47

I am very lucky that I have a boss now who was raised part-time in Europe, and his mother was European. And the Europeans have a very different view of vacation. Like they take multiple weeks off at a time and you can go fuck yourself. They're not coming back until they're done taking vacation. And he, so he said out loud to the team, like, I expect you to take at least one week of vacation in a row this year. He's like, it'd be better if you take two, but I know a lot of you won't. But, and that's a complete antithesis of anything that I've heard before in any other role at all.

Jamie: 16:25

Do you think it, do you think it's that we feel like it's a trick even when like we do finally have managers that are like, please take time off. Like, I need you to, like, I want you to take time off. You have to take time off. You need to do that to like recharge. You need to do that to take care of yourself. And then we still don't

Rebecca: 16:43

because, and again, especially if startups are your whole professional career, every time you've taken off something bad has

Jamie: 16:52

traumatic startup past.

Rebecca: 16:54

yes, and that's, but I mean, and then that's just the nature of it. It's, that's not usual for everyone, but if you come from that background, then you're just, you're broken pretty much.

Jamie: 17:05

Yeah.

Rebecca: 17:07

if you have shit bosses, you're rewarded for like, well, you, you know, so-and-so's really putting the time in and I mean, you just went to Cabo,

Jamie: 17:14

Yeah. And that's part of like seeing people around you that aren't taking time off. it's like, oh well, especially if it's somebody who's in a higher position than you.'cause you're like, oh, they're in a higher position than me at this company. so that's who gets rewarded. That's the kind of person they want to see. And this is the person who never takes time off. And, I actually get annoyed with that when I have managers that like will take time off rarely. And then the whole time they're just still like messaging.

Rebecca: 17:45

the worst

Jamie: 17:46

I've told them, I'm like, what are you? Go enjoy yourself. Or even when they're sick, I'm like, you're sick. Like, go rest. What are you? Why? But

Rebecca: 17:56

because they're micromanagers. Like the micromanagers are like, Hey, just checking in. What's going on?

Jamie: 18:02

yeah,

Rebecca: 18:03

Get the fuck

Jamie: 18:03

but then I'm just thinking about the trauma that they also have, and so I just feel like

Rebecca: 18:08

Well, I don't know if it's trauma. I think it's generational boomers

Jamie: 18:12

it could be,

Rebecca: 18:14

and older Gen X. You not have the same view of PTO, that like Gen Z, millennials do, like for them. You, why would you take PTO? Like it's not, it's not a thing. or it's not really encouraged. So I've had bosses who are older than me who are, not good at that. And I, I, again, I, I am, it wasn't like they're checking and they just never took off. Said, well, why would I need to take off? We have Christmas and, you know, the 4th of July or whatever.

Jamie: 18:45

Yeah,

Rebecca: 18:46

Okay.

Jamie: 18:47

we have Christmas off, not Christmas Eve, but we have Christmas off, and then we just have a short week and then we have New Year's day off. It's fine.

Rebecca: 18:54

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I think a lot of startups have that unlimited PTO because one, they're allowed to say no to your requests. Two, you don't have. Hours that are accruing that need to be paid out if something happens to you afterward. And because you're not taking vacation, that's an load of hours that you're accruing and they don't wanna pay that out when you go. So, I think that's their way of getting around it because it's, and they did a study and it was like, people who have unlimited PTO actually end up taking less time on average,

Jamie: 19:29

Yeah, we needed to,

Rebecca: 19:31

recruit hours.

Jamie: 19:32

yeah, we needed to fucking work on that. People in conclusion, take time off. Take it.

Rebecca: 19:38

what about using PTO for appointments? Have you had those positions too, where like you have to use your vacation hours for

Jamie: 19:44

I have, it's been a long time since I've worked at one of those places, but I have, I have experienced that. Yeah.

Rebecca: 19:51

Ugh. Turning in a time sheet for an hour and 45 minute for PTO

Jamie: 19:56

Or or being sick for like a longer period of time. And then you had your certain allotment of sick days that you were now out of.

Rebecca: 20:06

you get like a freebie one day, but that if it goes past one days.

Jamie: 20:09

Well, yeah, they're like, oh, well you have to use your PT like well sometimes too. They were like, you can't use PTO for sick time, which I think is like, huh? Um, it's like, no, these are for, these are your sick days and these are your vacation days. So you have let, you have maybe five days of sick leave and then what? Two weeks of vacation time? I don't even, I've been on unlimited for too long. I don't know what the norm is today.

Rebecca: 20:37

Not just vacation time too. So actually, my company pays maternity leave and they have nesting leave before that. So you get two weeks before the baby's born and then you get up to 12 weeks paid.

Jamie: 20:50

But When did nesting leave start? Have they been doing that for a long time?

Rebecca: 20:56

I've never heard of it until I came here.

Jamie: 20:58

I just now heard of it.

Rebecca: 21:01

Which, so that's a, to me, that's so generous. But then B, you're able, as a woman, if you give birth, you're able to fully recover. You can, you know, you can spend however long with the baby and a lot of people who can't afford to not be paid under a MLA end up going back early because you just can't go that long without a paycheck. So

Jamie: 21:21

Yeah.

Rebecca: 21:23

it's, um, I would argue that you get better work out of employees who know that they're gonna be covered, like they're gonna be, they're more willing to come back.

Jamie: 21:30

yeah. No, exactly. And I just, I, I think that's why it's so important to a big deal about employees taking time off and invest in added benefits. Like, I mean, the number one benefit, quote unquote benefit is pay your fucking employees fairly, pay them a living wage for where they live. but also just like the added benefits like that, like maternity leave or like, I know my sister-in-law. I think she had, it sounds, it sounds like she had kind of like a nest nest period off then the whatever maternity leave. It was pretty generous. And then also, like, I think her first two weeks back, two or three weeks back, it was like half days, so they kind of like eased her into it, which yeah. Yeah. That was amazing. I feel like you don't get that often, but hey, paper.

Rebecca: 22:27

That document you sent, that article you sent, I kind of wanted to go through that and talk about the ways that they recommend changing the culture, the culture around, PTO. Just because I've never heard of any of those before, ever, which is sad, but I mean, they may be good ideas for other people out there.

Jamie: 22:47

which one are you talking about?

Rebecca: 22:49

so actually they just list everything we just said, like the replacement fear factor, the shaming epidemic. but then, so they, there are ways that they encourage employees to take off. So, I don't know if I'd go for this. A lot of it is like feature vacationers and recharge spotlights

Jamie: 23:05

oh yeah. Listen, this company, like their whole thing is like, they help companies highlight better benefits to keep employees happy and keep employees healthy and keep employees focused. So don't read too much into that, I don't think.

Rebecca: 23:25

Well, no, but I mean, like, it's stuff that, I mean, I just never heard of a, anywhere where they, where they'd celebrate it or, uh, offer a re vocation recovery day where like you're not coming back.'cause that's the other thing. When you come right back into it and you don't ramp up, then you just are like, why the fuck did I ever go? So like, giving them a day to just come back smoothly into the workplace.

Jamie: 23:47

I factor that in myself. I always like,

Rebecca: 23:51

a hundred percent.

Jamie: 23:51

yeah, I do a buffer day because even if I'm not gone, even if I have, like if my parents are coming to visit or a friend coming to visit, um, but that's what I do now. Like I guess I definitely think I have a healthier relationship with taking time off now. but man has that taken a while and you know there's

Rebecca: 24:13

the pro. Well, and I'm sure when your employees come to you though, they're like, I wanna take time off. They're like, yeah, absolutely you should. But you don't do the same for yourself.

Jamie: 24:21

Yeah. I've actually, I've never been denied. Have you been denied when you've asked for time off? That's

Rebecca: 24:28

Again, I could not take a honeymoon,

Jamie: 24:30

Oh, that's right.

Rebecca: 24:33

but yes, I've been denied. I mean, most startups, I just didn't take time off.'cause they were like, this is launching or we've got this. And it was just always based around like product or launches or whatever, bullshit. So there was just never a quote. Good time. It's just not a great time right now. It's not. It's just not the best time to take off right now.

Jamie: 24:54

I don't think I've ever been told, no. I think I've been like, I think a manager has kind of hinted at the, that they'd rather I didn't, but I was like, okay,

Rebecca: 25:06

I was not asking, I was just informing you. So these are the dates. I will not be at work, which I can do now, but before it was like, oh, okay, I'll just change everything. I mean, I've changed and canceled things, which is crazy to me now, but

Jamie: 25:24

What was it that I, um, there was, I was gonna cancel. Was it my trip with you?

Rebecca: 25:30

no,

Jamie: 25:31

I was gonna cancel something.

Rebecca: 25:35

I don't remember. But you didn't, and you went, was it Mexico? Yeah.

Jamie: 25:42

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh crap. I just realized the COVID was in like early August and Mexico was in September,

Rebecca: 25:58

Oh, that's right. You dig it.

Jamie: 25:59

and then I got laid off in October, but I don't, I really don't think that that had

Rebecca: 26:05

no, no, no. But it's not great,

Jamie: 26:07

they did mass layoffs, so, and that's another thing with like all the layoffs that are happening, especially in our industry. of

Rebecca: 26:13

pe you're people, yeah, you're putting a target on your back, whether we like it or not, people do have preconceived notions about people who take more time off than others and or people who call out more. and especially, like I said, older managers tend to do that, or older generations tend to do that. Like you should really just be sucking it up and going it in or going in. So if you're taking more time off'cause you're sick and more time off, it's just, there's nothing, there's no, like rules for a company to be like, don't do that. People are gonna do that anyway. So when layoffs come, whether it's conscious or unconscious. You may be put first because you're like, so and so is here all the time. And then Jamie took, went to Mexico and then got COVID. you're putting a target on your back.

Jamie: 27:00

Yeah. Which is so fucked. Like it's so fucked to like think about it that way. That's awful. But

Rebecca: 27:06

But it's true.

Jamie: 27:07

that is the way it is. That it do be like that.

Rebecca: 27:12

And we've said before, this starts when you're in elementary school with the, the perfect attendance award.

Jamie: 27:20

attendance. Yeah.

Rebecca: 27:22

so you're conditioned into it early,

Jamie: 27:26

keep thinking back to the whole thing from that article where it talked about, celebrating people who took time off and took vacation day, lots of vacation days. Like can you imagine I can't even, I can't even, I can't imagine that. I can't even just thinking about being in a workplace where they're giving like the town hall PowerPoint and there's like a slide and it's like Jamie took four weeks of PTO so far this year and it's only August. good job, Jamie.

Rebecca: 27:58

right there. It's just, God, I don't know. I, I just, I've started making myself take half days, like in the fall, in the spring, or every third Friday, I take a mental health day and I just, I put on my calendar mental health day and I'm off. because I just, you get this life and I don't wanna be like, well, I'm, I'm so glad I was in the office more than vacation. I'm never gonna do that. It doesn't matter. There will always be a job, but you, there's that vacation or that trip isn't necessarily gonna be there. That experience.

Jamie: 28:36

I'm trying to remember who it was, but we had one of our guests, I think that we talked about, um, how your kids see it, right?

Rebecca: 28:48

Yep.

Jamie: 28:49

How they're like, was it Morgan? Maybe it might have been Morgan,

Rebecca: 28:52

Probably

Jamie: 28:53

and like, yeah. Her kids just like, oh, mommy's always on her computer. I think it was Taylor maybe. Anyway,

Rebecca: 29:02

a bad example. Like it's just a bad look.

Jamie: 29:05

yeah,'cause you don't want to, yeah, you don't want like your kids to see that and then add to, you know, whatever societal workplace pressures. It's like, oh, that's what my mom always did. Like my mom was a hard worker, you know, and

Rebecca: 29:20

right. And you're showing them how to have fun and joy and there are times for good, you know, and, and to prioritize that. not to mention you're just creating core fucking memories. No big deal.

Jamie: 29:34

no big deal.

Rebecca: 29:36

It's no big deal.

Jamie: 29:37

All this child turns out is just all your responsibility. So

Rebecca: 29:41

exactly.

Jamie: 29:42

no pressure.

Rebecca: 29:45

You can bet your ass the second it's available. I ask for like the week, the week, the Christmas, two weeks off, like week of Christmas and the week after, and I don't come back until New Year's. And that's just, that is my policy now because no one wants to work. No one wants to be there,

Jamie: 30:02

and no one's really there anyway, so it's what?

Rebecca: 30:05

no one's there.

Jamie: 30:06

maybe you can get some stuff done. I do know people who've been like, I like working the week of Christmas instead of having it off because everyone's gone and I don't have any interruptions. That was more when I worked in an office though. But yes, I do. I I do feel that, but yeah, no, hands down I would be taking that. I think more and more places are doing like the week off for Christmas. I think it's like rare that they don't, but there's still a ton of places that don't.

Rebecca: 30:33

I was just thinking Slack because I had a set, for my, my timeout, like I was gonna be outta the office and then someone messaged me and it was, I was still there. I just, and I responded and Slack was like, great to see you, but aren't you supposed to be too? And

Jamie: 30:45

Oh, really?

Rebecca: 30:46

message. Yeah. And I was like,

Jamie: 30:48

Oh, good

Rebecca: 30:49

you're right. Basically it's, I know. I was like, alright, thank you Slack. appreciate that. So, I mean, I see, and I think Gen Z begging being one of the biggest contributors to the workplace and one of the biggest workforces now, I think they're very healthy Outlook on self-care and taking vacation is helping to change the messaging and to kind of turn that tide. Because if you want them to work and if you want them to stay at your company, you're gonna goddamn well, let them go on vacation.

Jamie: 31:20

Yeah, and that's what, that's what I was talking about when I was like, you know, invest in benefits, invest in. Sounds like cliche, but like in your employees happiness. because like burnout, like your employees are gonna get burnt out if you don't encourage them to take time off if you don't give them a certain amount of vacation so that they can take a certain amount of time off. Like,

Rebecca: 31:51

You think they do good work now they're not gonna do good work when you're not letting them, recharge.

Jamie: 31:57

yeah, I think that's really important, like just kind of helps you focus and just kind of take a break from it all. Hey Marina, we had to marry.

Rebecca: 32:08

But I still think the conversation is though for a lot of us, I know a lot of our peers. What we're saying sounds fucking great, but when push comes to shove, are you following through? And I can honestly say no. Like I'm saying what I know I need to say, but gun to my head, I'm just not like, I'm going to take way less time off than I really should because I just can't get over that. And so I think that's what a lot of people struggle with, to be totally honest.

Jamie: 32:35

See, but now your employees are looking at you and they're like, oh, Rebecca doesn't really take much time off,

Rebecca: 32:41

I know. But, uh, Rebecca is also in charge of making sure the revenue hits our OKR and making sure the traffic hits our OKR. And that's kind of fucked up because again, I, I can say that, I can say and objectively know, the world is not gonna end and there are no emergencies, but I account on this company to pay me so I can live. And so when they're like, what happened this week? Like, well, I was at the beach.

Jamie: 33:12

Yeah,

Rebecca: 33:12

It's just, and I want, I, so, I so want to like not feel this way.

Jamie: 33:17

yeah, I think I still feel that way and I especially feel like a lot of times like, Ugh, was this even worth taking these five days off when I had to do like all of this prep before and then all of this catch up when I get back? Sometimes I feel like that, and that's like sometimes the worst part. and I think that's back to what Manic was saying about like the internalized shame, right? And that's, I think, really what it comes down to and what we're holding onto is, and I mean the internalized shame like isn't necessarily all our fault. Like I think it's a lot to do with external factors and past.

Rebecca: 34:00

Women especially like take you, when was the last time you took off for cramps? Women who take sick days for cramps, like you're gonna, you're gonna get looked at, you're gonna get behind your male,

Jamie: 34:11

I went, I went to lie

Rebecca: 34:12

gonna get behind your male coworkers.

Jamie: 34:13

That's what I did.

Rebecca: 34:15

Right. But you know what I mean? Like if you're, if you're calling and people notice, that's the other thing that's so fucked up. Coworkers notice when you're gone, if you're in like toxic workplaces, they notice and they track when you're gone. And so it's like, oh,

Jamie: 34:27

I don't think your coworkers actually track when you're gone. I think that's in your

Rebecca: 34:33

currently now, no. But at these very competitive high output places, yes, 100% they did.

Jamie: 34:42

That's horrible. I don't think I've ever had that happen.

Rebecca: 34:48

So if you're looking at how much sick time you take. And they noticed that, well, Jamie's taking like a day or two off at the beginning of every month. That's kind of weird. Brad isn't, and then you have to kind of justify like, I'm, I'm actually really sick. Like I have COVID. Like, that's the other thing that's so fucked up. I feel like I have to justify, like this isn't just some frivolous re that reason, I'm definitely ill, which again, super fucked up and I should have just taken the time off. But like, I wait until the very last minute when it's as bad as it could be. And that's the day I take off.

Jamie: 35:22

Yeah,

Rebecca: 35:24

I'm a bad example. I am, I do not walk the walk and I will be the first to admit, I'm a very bad example at all of this,

Jamie: 35:33

I think I am pretty good at it now, but it's also been a while since I've been in that situation,

Rebecca: 35:39

I mean, I didn't take off when my grandpa died. Like I took off. day he died, which was like Friday.

Jamie: 35:46

Okay.

Rebecca: 35:46

And then Chris

Jamie: 35:47

I was like, you told me you took off.'cause I think I was like, Rebecca, your grandpa died

Rebecca: 35:51

I know I took one day and then it's like, I'm fine. And then I showed up and I was clearly not fine and I should have taken a week. But again, it's

Jamie: 35:59

like a year later. You weren't fine.

Rebecca: 36:01

or when a pet dies, you feel like you can't justify, like, I, I need time off because you know, my cat died

Jamie: 36:07

yeah.

Rebecca: 36:08

when any, if anyone else said, that seems like obviously take it off, but you're like, well, they're gonna think this is stupid and then I'm being lazy and just trying to get out of work. And so you find yourself having to justify why you deserve to be fucking human and have a human experience.

Jamie: 36:23

Yeah. Marina said, delegating and trusting others to not be incompetent is hard. Yeah. That's a big part of it.

Rebecca: 36:32

If you don't have the staff.'cause again, startups are really like really small and there's usually only one person who does a lot of different things,

Jamie: 36:42

Yeah,

Rebecca: 36:43

is on them. that's their fault for hiring. Not enough people. You're still responsible for it.

Jamie: 36:49

but you're still like the only one that's doing the thing. Yeah.

Rebecca: 36:58

the, so taking sick time, it's so funny. I, Emily was an emergency C-section. I texted my boss frantically as I was going to go have an emergency c-section. I'm having the baby today. I'm, I'm really sorry. But I'm actually having, I had another time where I had emergency gallbladder surgery and I remember taking a picture of myself in my hospital bed to be like, I'm not making this up. I'm actually like, I'm here.

Jamie: 37:26

was a lot of that. I feel like early in my career too, there was a lot of like feeling like you had to prove and explain. detail, any

Rebecca: 37:36

Doctor's notes. Yes, doctor's

Jamie: 37:38

doctor's notes. Forgot about that. Yeah. Fucked

Rebecca: 37:42

companies where they did that. And I mean, not anymore that it's been a handful of years before this has happened, but again, just enough to fuck you up for the rest of your career.

Jamie: 37:53

Yeah. One other thing, like I hated absolutely is like when I worked in office, you have like, we had this one manager that would, I'm sure I've talked about this before, but like would always come in sick because

Rebecca: 38:10

my God, yes.

Jamie: 38:11

wanna take time off. I'm a hard worker, I'm just a little sick. I can work through it. And it's like, but when it's in person like that and it's at you're sick, she would come in and get other people sick and we would all be like. Yeah. If you're, if you, if you're not well, don't fucking come to work and infect everybody,

Rebecca: 38:34

Oh, and you're, she's going to the bathroom and the kitchen and like she's spreading it everywhere.

Jamie: 38:40

Yeah. She's trying to choose from the free startup snacks, you know, and Ugh, that was

Rebecca: 38:47

I had a coworker who was pregnant who would throw up in her trash cans at her desk. It

Jamie: 38:55

Were you all like next to each other?

Rebecca: 38:58

was, yes. It was like a big room. And I was like, oh my God. just get the fuck out of here. But

Jamie: 39:04

That seems like unbelievable to me.

Rebecca: 39:06

It is, but again, at a startup, if you're the only pregnant female there

Jamie: 39:11

Oh, true.

Rebecca: 39:12

in a, in a boys club, you better fucking show up for work no matter what. Otherwise, you're just being, Piece of shit. Lazy pregnant lady making a whole ass body out of nothing.

Jamie: 39:23

Piece of shit. Lazy pregnant lady. Ugh.

Rebecca: 39:28

So she felt, she felt like she had to do that. She felt like she had to show up and be there, even though she was clearly dying.

Jamie: 39:35

Maybe she was also just doing it, like for her manager being like, oh, you want me to just keep working? Like

Rebecca: 39:44

I read the website, ask a manager, and there are a disturbing amount of letters of people being like, so I have chemo and I need to figure out like, like how do people like, so they don't think I'm just taking time off just to take time off.

Jamie: 39:56

we need to do

Rebecca: 39:56

So many I know,

Jamie: 39:58

That's awful.

Rebecca: 39:59

there's so many letters like that. Like what do I do? Or, but then there's the other letters that are like, I've noticed my coworker is taking so much time off and they're tracking and the first thing she is is like, okay, stop fucking tracking your coworker's. Time off you fucking psycho. It's none of your business. There are plenty of reasons, so we'd like to think that people aren't tracking. They very much are.

Jamie: 40:23

Yeah. That's funny though because I think that's how, that's my, like my healthier PTO mindset stems from me seeing another employee that was kind of like on my level or maybe one above me, and I was like, damn, this woman's taking, you know what? I don't think it was a woman. I think it was a man. This guy's taking, like he was taking. it seemed like a week off every month almost. It seemed like insane, like maybe it wasn't a full week, but like a handful of days every month. And I mean, I don't know his shit, but like, could have been health or something like that. But I was like, fuck. I

Rebecca: 41:11

were annoyed by it. I would've

Jamie: 41:13

no, I wasn't annoyed, that's the

Rebecca: 41:15

Oh, I would've been,

Jamie: 41:16

I was just kinda like, shit. Like how do you get away with that? You know? Like, I mean, we had unlimited vacation, but I was still like, how do you get away with that? and then I was like, you know what? This fuck is taking off like this handful of days or a week, like every month or two, like I'm gonna start taking a little more time off. And that's I think what pushed me to

Rebecca: 41:36

yeah.

Jamie: 41:37

take more time off for myself.

Rebecca: 41:40

Oh, I just had a thought. If your first job was in retail or anywhere where you had a shift, that's probably the other thing where taking time off, it's like, you always had to find someone to cover, which is a

Jamie: 41:52

Oh yeah.

Rebecca: 41:54

And then if you couldn't, well you still gotta show up to work or get fired. So I, I worked in retail first, like that was one of my first jobs. And I definitely remember being like, I can't take time off'cause I can't find anyone to come.'cause it's your, again, they make it your responsibility. staff wherever you work. Just crazy. but so yeah, that whole mindset starts young of like, ugh, I can't, I can't take time off.

Jamie: 42:18

Yeah.

Rebecca: 42:19

I didn't think about that.

Jamie: 42:21

Gotta get someone to cover. Yeah. I forgot about those days. I feel so old now. I'm like, oh yes. The days of your,

Rebecca: 42:30

right.

Jamie: 42:30

I sometimes still have nightmares. I'll once in a while have a nightmare about like being a server and like all my tables are upset because the, the kitchen's taking too long'cause we're busy and I wake up and it's like the most stressful, it's always the most stressful fucking nightmare dude.

Rebecca: 42:48

Yeah. retail, same. It's just like you, it's, you spend hours of your, again, impressionable brain that is still forming.

Jamie: 42:57

As our brains were still forming, huh? Yeah. That's

Rebecca: 43:01

So that leaves a mark.

Jamie: 43:03

Sometimes you'd get lucky though, and you'd have that person that was like always wanting to pick up shifts and then you get that person's number,

Rebecca: 43:13

Yeah. Yeah,

Jamie: 43:15

or then you'd have to trade. It's like you need a day off, but then you have to like trade, but to like

Rebecca: 43:20

And one of you couldn't go home for than Thanksgiving. That was like any holidays. That's the other, you had to work during the holidays. So again, then you move into the corporate workplace. That mindset of like, I can't take time off for the holidays is right there.

Jamie: 43:42

It's so interesting'cause it's been, I feel like it's been so long since I've really thought about like the start of like my career or even, yeah, like a first job like retail or food industry. But yeah, back to when you were little,

Rebecca: 44:00

But here's the thing though, it. It doesn't matter. You're going to get laid off, you're gonna get fired. Whatever happens, something's gonna happen with your job. It's going to happen whether you're there or not, or whether you're there or not on certain

Jamie: 44:12

next week. More positive thoughts from Rebecca.

Rebecca: 44:15

no. But I mean, again, this is just like it's gonna happen either way. So you might as well take the time off.'cause again, this is just like the one time you get, and I'm gonna say it again, I'm a bad example of it, but it's not to be fatalistic. Something's bad is gonna happen to you if it's supposed to happen to you,

Jamie: 44:34

It was supposed to

Rebecca: 44:35

up or not for your job. Do you know what I mean? Like if you're supposed to get laid off or if you're gonna get fired anyway, it doesn't matter if you're there or not. It can't be like, well, she did show up every day, so let's cancel that. No,

Jamie: 44:45

especially like, I feel like now with all the layoffs that have been going on, like there's just, oh my God, unemployment rate is nuts. What

Rebecca: 44:52

Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. That's not true. Actually. I was supposed to get laid off and then there's a trade show that this girl was supposed to go to and she suddenly couldn't go. And so they delayed laying me off

Jamie: 45:06

are you serious? Wait, wait, wait. So you knew you were gonna get laid off? And they were like, well, we need you for this. What

Rebecca: 45:13

boss handed me her, her phone. We were in out of state and I was trying to find Google Maps and I got a text message, or she got a text message from her boss, which was like about the plan to lay me off after. And I'm a nosy bitch, so I immediately was like, so

Jamie: 45:29

the fuck? I don't think you

Rebecca: 45:31

I know. So we flew back and I went immediately to the office and then I sent an, I quit email on the way home, the car.

Jamie: 45:41

Oh, okay,

Rebecca: 45:41

fire me,

Jamie: 45:43

Okay, good.

Rebecca: 45:44

they were gonna wait, they were gonna lay me off, and then they had to wait till the trade show was over.

Jamie: 45:49

So you fucked them, right?

Rebecca: 45:51

I didn't, I mean, I was gonna be gone anyway, so no, I didn't fuck'em. I went, yeah, no, they've totally fucked me. They just got an extra week of work outta me.

Jamie: 46:01

God damnit.

Rebecca: 46:04

Yeah.

Jamie: 46:04

Oh, so you found out after you had already done that trade show that they were gonna, okay. I thought you meant like they said, like, let's

Rebecca: 46:12

Oh yeah. No, this, sorry, this was at, this is at the trade show. Here's another fun one that I just thought of. Working through a miscarriage. A lot of women do it a lot because, I guess this is gonna happen, so I should probably go to work.'cause what I might, you can't tell your boss or you, you don't feel comfortable telling your boss or you're afraid to tell your boss.'cause then they'll know. So then they'll know you're trying to get pregnant. fuck. I could do a whole show on the fear about getting pregnant as a woman in the workplace and I just might.'cause that's another form of time off that you're gonna have to take that.'cause paternity leave wasn't a thing until very recently that a lot of men resented women for, so anyway, it's dangerous to tell someone, Hey, I'm trying to get pregnant.'cause they know that's gonna come up. So if they have to lay someone off, you're out of there. and you just, you're, it's an embarrassing. So you can't just be like, I'm saying you can't. But I know a lot of us feel like you can't just take a day off out of nowhere, even though something very traumatic and very sad is happening right now. and so you just show up to work having a miscarriage. And then it was the day that everyone's supposed to go to laser tag because that was the quote, fun event they chose for this fucking startup. And so you have to go watch people play laser tag, having a miscarriage.

Jamie: 47:30

fucking Christ. Yeah. We should do a whole episode on like women in the workplace, pregnancy, miscarriages, maternity leave, because still there are still a ton of places, you know, like, you know, especially if people work at, if you're still working retail right now or something, it's

Rebecca: 47:50

God having to fight for a pumping room at a location where it's mostly men that woo. She could just do it in the bathroom. That's, oh my God. Oh my God. yeah, it's, and again, that's where this comes from because if you are gonna get laid off, they make sure to do it before you have the baby, so you're not on maternity leave, because I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

Jamie: 48:09

Well, and also like that happening. Yeah, it is. But also like something like that happening and

Rebecca: 48:16

Listen, I said pretty sure. Because you know what we're living in right now, and it's very well possible.

Jamie: 48:22

But also the whole women having like gaps in their resume and stuff like that because like they took on the role of,

Rebecca: 48:31

Stayat home mom, which is, or a stayat home parent. fuck men. Stay at home mom.'cause if you're a stay at home dad, you get kudos for that. If you're a stay at home mom, you fucked your career. I, again, I could rant about that, but you're right. That's another type of leave that a lot of women won't take or cut. very short.

Jamie: 48:46

Yeah.

Rebecca: 48:47

I took two years. I took two years, Jamie. It fucked me so badly. As far as wages go and where I'm supposed to be in my career. I am, I'm not two years, I wasn't two years behind. When I went back to work, I was multiple years behind. Like at least, like, I was just starting out again. I couldn't get anyone to hire me. It was ridiculous. And then when I did get hired, my pay was very similar to what I got paid when I first started working, however, over 10 years ago. So it was crazy. It was crazy how much that fucks you up.

Jamie: 49:24

That kind of, that I was affected like that in the teeniest way, like even just being laid off this time because I was noticing like checking jobs. It's not the same. I'm not trying to make it sound like that. Sorry. I just,

Rebecca: 49:38

No.

Jamie: 49:39

but like looking at Judge Rumbar, I kept telling you, I was like. This is like a 60%, 40%, 50% pay cut is what I'm seeing, that people are paying for the same job I was already doing. Because you take the time to move up at a company and then you get laid off, or you have to leave to go take, even if you're taking care of not a child, but a family member who's sick or something,

Rebecca: 50:06

The big difference is though you are at a lateral move. If you're coming back from being a stay at home mom, you are at a similar role to when you first started working because they're like, well, she was gone for two years, so clearly all this has happened and she's. An idiot who doesn't use the internet. And so she will not be aware of all this business stuff, so we must start her back, which is so fucked up. And yet,

Jamie: 50:31

and yeah,

Rebecca: 50:33

yeah, yeah, but I mean, women being afraid and I was like, it's been two years. I have to get back to the workplace.'cause I was panicking after two years. She was so little. There's so little at two, but I was like, oh my God. And I can't imagine would've happened if it had been three years.

Jamie: 50:47

Or longer.

Rebecca: 50:48

do you know how embarrassing it is when LinkedIn is like, do you wanna put a parenting gap on your resume? Or like, I don't see men with that. I don't see any, any men with that. And maybe I'm just not getting the right people on LinkedIn, but like I don't really see that for men. But I see that a lot for women and that means that potential employers are seeing that too. And again, I wish there wasn't a bias, but you take that long of a leave.

Jamie: 51:11

a bias.

Rebecca: 51:12

they will say something or think something. I mean, assume something I guess.

Jamie: 51:19

Rob. Rob came in with, I fucking love laser tag. Do a laser tag episode. Fuck you, Rob. Read the room. Rob. Let's go to laser deck,

Rebecca: 51:38

I don't know. So like, it goes beyond vaca. We're telling people to take PTO off, but the fear of it doesn't stem from, not it, it comes from everything else. Like the fear of taking vacation is rolled into with the fear of taking time out as a woman and time out as someone who has a woman's body who's doing a woman's thing, or someone who's,

Jamie: 51:58

consumerism and the patriarchy.

Rebecca: 52:00

oh, there we go. So it's not just, it's not just like she's being a martyr. It's not like. A character deficit. It's years of internalized and unset things

Jamie: 52:12

Yeah.

Rebecca: 52:15

that makes you afraid.

Jamie: 52:18

How can we.

Rebecca: 52:19

My God, what Another stellar fucking upbeat, positive episode. I'm so glad if we could talk about,

Jamie: 52:25

Hey, we never told people that we would be positive and upbeat. We've never said that. Ever.

Rebecca: 52:32

I think that's why a lot of men are able to take time off and just go.

Jamie: 52:38

Yeah. They're using all the days that US women aren't using.

Rebecca: 52:42

but I, I've noticed a lot of men I worked with are very good at taking time off.

Jamie: 52:46

leave? Just gonna take her maternity leave.

Rebecca: 52:50

Yeah. And here's the thing, Jamie, they're like, oh, family vacation. And all the women are like, oh my God, that's so cute. Where are you guys going? And then he'll come back in and he'll show pictures of him holding his daughter at the beach and they'll be like, oh my God, what a good dad. And he'll get kudos for it. And it doesn't matter that he took two weeks to go to the fucking beach. You come in, you go to the beach with your family, they're like,

Jamie: 53:11

No, no, no, no, no, no. You go to the hospital to get a C-section. No beach.

Rebecca: 53:17

you They're gonna be like, Ugh. Typical woman taking time off for children. it's again, I wish

Jamie: 53:23

She wants.

Rebecca: 53:24

Right months. Yes. That's what I mean.

Jamie: 53:28

And then remote work on top of it now too is like, she's working remotely, so like she can take care of her baby and work, right?

Rebecca: 53:35

you have a period, you fucking lie down in bed and work sideways, bitch That you and a lot of people who work remotely do not take sick time at all because they're like, well, I can do this even though I'm dying.

Jamie: 53:48

Yeah.

Rebecca: 53:49

So I can't really justify.'cause usually when it's like, can I come to work? I'm going to infect everyone. There's no one to infect. And again, you can work lying down. So people are like, well, I guess I'm not really sick enough to take a sick day

Jamie: 54:02

you're really in bad shape, I have to say. You're really in bad shape.

Rebecca: 54:08

again,

Jamie: 54:08

things like

Rebecca: 54:10

that it's from, no, it's first. It's a hundred percent firsthand. It's, and I am getting better. But like this is for years my mindset of like I, I mean, they're gonna think I'm lazy when I am one of the hardest people I know, or one of the hardest working people. I know I'm not lazy, but I don't know, is this my mom's fault? Is this all my mom's fault because she didn't love me enough? And so now like I don't want people to think badly of me or think I'm

Jamie: 54:36

I don't think this is your mom's

Rebecca: 54:38

You know what? I'm gonna go ahead and just blame a parent anyway for this one. That's what it is, Jamie. It's childhood trauma.

Jamie: 54:44

I think it's a little bit of everything, but I was gonna ask, Hey, cosmic. Cosmic says, yeah, his job doesn't offer PTO or sick time. Like

Rebecca: 54:53

do you work for Trump?

Jamie: 54:57

a lot of jobs don't like.

Rebecca: 55:01

what do you mean? A lot of jobs don't, and this is maybe stupid, if you work 40 hours a week, aren't you legally required to give them breaks? You know what I'm saying this out loud? I'm like, no, not in America. You're, they can probably do whatever. So I'm gonna Google that right now. are you legally required

Jamie: 55:17

But I'm

Rebecca: 55:18

offer PTO?

Jamie: 55:21

what is the solution here. Depends on the state,

Rebecca: 55:24

Oh my God. Employers in the United States are not required to offer paid time off at the federal level. States and local jurisdictions have laws mandating sick leave. Not all of'em. There's no federal law requiring employ, okay. Texas, Arizona. Utah for sure. Probably Georgia. All the southern states, I'm gonna guess definitely don't like have state laws that mandate PTO.

Jamie: 55:47

Home healthcare, if I take time off, I don't make money. and that's how it is too.'cause like, also like contractors, freelancers, that's a whole other mess.

Rebecca: 55:58

you work at home. You work at home. So you can contract lying down sideways.

Jamie: 56:02

I think a lot of us. Had been doing that a while where we were like, oh, it's okay. We don't need to take time off because we work from home anyway, so I'm home all the time. It's fine. It's kind of like a vacation. it's not a vacation. It's not. Take your time off. But what I was gonna ask is like, what do we do what? Like how do we change, how do we change this? I know it's not as simple as that.

Rebecca: 56:30

You change this by creating laws at a federal level that regulate this kind of thing, but because we live in a capitalistic society, there's no fucking way that's ever going to happen, ever.

Jamie: 56:44

But I mean like internally or like to help each other,

Rebecca: 56:48

you can just get some crystals and think really positive and then journal and like say a mantra and that should do it. You can't. You can't, because again, we work in capitalism. This is always going to be there. I wish the conversations were changing. I think they are, sometimes are, but like the fact that people are not legally required to give you time off, I think makes you a prisoner. With a job. A prisoner with a job. Yeah. Yeah. Prisoner with a job. If you wanna live here, you'll work.'cause otherwise we're not fucking paying you.

Jamie: 57:34

Yeah, that's the American dream. Work. work and work and work and work until you're dead.

Rebecca: 57:43

Or move to Europe, marry a European, get the fuck outta here. Go enjoy three weeks at a time when you have, a breast reduction or something. Oh, that was another one. I had a breast reduction. You can't tell anyone that you're going in for like, I mean, you can, but like, especially if you work at the boys club, you're not gonna be like, Hey, guess what?'cause then they're gonna be looking at your tits and then when you come back, they're gonna to be like. So that's a whole conversation I don't wanna have. So you're going out for unspecified quote unquote surgery, and then you're giving them the bare minimum of how long you can be out without being able to stand up from the pain meds. And then you fucking go to work, but you're exhausted.'cause your body still has two fucking gaping wounds in it and is recovering.

Jamie: 58:35

sore and you can barely move,

Rebecca: 58:37

Uhhuh. Yep. Meanwhile, a man is gonna get a vasectomy and he's out for three days and because that just happened,

Jamie: 58:47

Oh my God. We should offer vasectomy. Leave.

Rebecca: 58:50

but it's just,

Jamie: 58:52

Encourage more men

Rebecca: 58:53

I know. Yeah. I should have taken at least a month off. Because I had a, I had a complication afterward now to have emergency follow-up surgery, which is another thing I had to call my boss for and be like, I can't come to work. I have to have emergency follow-up surgery. So then he thinks you're like a mess and dramatic

Jamie: 59:14

yeah.

Rebecca: 59:15

this comes on the heels of men telling you, Hey, that guy isn't sexually harassing you. You're making too big of a deal out of it. That's how men always

Jamie: 59:22

That's just how he is. He's just

Rebecca: 59:25

so if you're making a big deal out of that, you're clearly okay to come into work. It's not really that bad. That's the kind of purveying thought is it's, is it really that bad?

Jamie: 59:35

Yeah,

Rebecca: 59:36

Can you still walk? Then you need to get it to work. And again, maybe people who start working for like old school companies at the beginning of their careers where like they have the money to pay people to take time off. Maybe this is not, the mindset may maybe it's totally different and if you have a lot of startup experience, you're just fucked up. I would love to know that maybe. A lot of people don't think this way. I have a feeling in my gut they do, but it would be nice to know that there are some people out there who, like, from the get go, were encouraged to take PTO.

Jamie: 1:00:10

I have felt encouraged at some places, but like you said, it's whether or not you feel like it's genuine. I would say I, at a couple places, I, I felt encouraged and I did think it's genuine, but then maybe I kind of find, found out that the other one. Wasn't as genuine as maybe I thought it was.

Rebecca: 1:00:33

This is the first place I've been where it's genuine and I'm very grateful for that. He is a good example and I, again, it's very late for me to be rehabbing myself.

Jamie: 1:00:43

Yeah.

Rebecca: 1:00:44

but I'm grateful I'm at least able to do that and learn how to do that in a

Jamie: 1:00:48

Rebecca, I'm gonna need you to do better. I'm gonna need you to do better and take

Rebecca: 1:00:51

I absolutely know any, yes. I know I need to do better. we're getting there, but this is the first place I felt safe to do that. I actually just got a text message of wherever he's hiking on, I hope he's having a good time.

Jamie: 1:01:03

Oh, he's on vacation now. I see senior manager.

Rebecca: 1:01:08

yeah. So that's, that's good. That's a good example. he takes him off for family stuff. That's another good example. He doesn't make me feel guilty for like, I have to do this with them. I'm gonna be late.

Jamie: 1:01:18

Even if like your kid has a sick day, like your kid's sick,

Rebecca: 1:01:20

and I'm, oh, fuck that. We didn't even talk about that. Jamie. Do you know how many women get like, because they can't come in'cause their kid is sick, but if a dad does it, what a great dad staying at home. But like, if you have to leave early to pick up your kid,'cause she's sick, you get looks and you can like, and I'm not being crazy. It's like you tell your boss, you're like. I mean, if you have to do it, you have to do it. And they say it like that

Jamie: 1:01:47

Yeah. That's shame. That's shaming.

Rebecca: 1:01:50

and you're just like, okay, well she can't drive, so gotta go. But for men, it's like, oh, no, buddy. Totally. You know, great job babysitting your kids or whatever they fucking say to each other,

Jamie: 1:02:03

Yeah.

Rebecca: 1:02:05

you are not a good parent. If you work and are a mom, you are an amazing parent if you're a father and you work. that's pretty much the messaging. And again, this all flows into, because women are the caregivers and we have to take proportionately more time off with maternity leave. And if you're a stay at home mom. So we, we feel guilty for taking extra time.

Jamie: 1:02:30

When it's like not extra time at all.

Rebecca: 1:02:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Jamie: 1:02:35

I hate when people say I'm babysitting my

Rebecca: 1:02:37

I do too, but the places where I worked, they 100% were like, oh, I gotta babysit the kids tonight. It was those, that's who I worked with a lot of babysitting the kids this weekend. Yeah. Yep.

Jamie: 1:02:50

Wife has to have

Rebecca: 1:02:51

to rant.

Jamie: 1:02:51

Wife has to have surgery. So I've got the kids this weekend.

Rebecca: 1:02:57

Yeah. I'm sorry. And I'm sorry I, I know I went off, but just realizing how skewed it is.

Jamie: 1:03:05

I just think, yeah, I think it's a major systemic issue and you're right, it's not gonna change until we make changes at a federal level. And I mean, I think even if we do that, I think it's still gonna be hard for people to kind of get over, the intern, the internalized shame from being shamed in all these other ways

Rebecca: 1:03:43

Yep.

Jamie: 1:03:44

we like. We out here just trying to take care of ourselves like

Rebecca: 1:03:55

All right.

Jamie: 1:03:55

we did it.

Rebecca: 1:03:56

guys so much for joining us. Glad we could have another uplifting, positive conversation.

Jamie: 1:04:07

We would love to hear more from you guys too, if anyone has like a different, a different viewpoint or

Rebecca: 1:04:14

No one has a different viewpoint.

Jamie: 1:04:16

if like, there's gotta be some people that have a healthy relationship with taking time off though,

Rebecca: 1:04:20

Not any of our friends, all of our, I'm gonna say all of our friends who

Jamie: 1:04:23

No one we know, but somebody.

Rebecca: 1:04:25

one we know. That's why they're like not chiming in.

Jamie: 1:04:29

Can you tell

Rebecca: 1:04:29

All right. Let's hear it.

Jamie: 1:04:31

Oh, there's a, but I never have to watch my kids. I need to spend time with them.

Rebecca: 1:04:37

Yeah, we know. We know that's'cause you're a good parent.

Jamie: 1:04:41

Only because I don't listen to other people. Ha ha ha ha ha. Okay. I'm on nine week leave now. It was involuntary. Renee got laid off.

Rebecca: 1:04:52

But

Jamie: 1:04:55

Yeah,

Rebecca: 1:04:56

think of this as like your next adventure Marina.

Jamie: 1:05:02

that'll never die.

Rebecca: 1:05:04

yeah.

Jamie: 1:05:05

all right, I thought Q was gonna come in and drop some like amazing, like yeah, I actually, this is how it works for me. And, but no, she's just like, I don't fucking care what anybody says and I don't listen to them, so

Rebecca: 1:05:19

thanks.

Jamie: 1:05:19

take time off. I think that's kind of where I am now. Like that's with the, like the past handful of years I have been there almost pretty much.

Rebecca: 1:05:30

yeah, I know now, like I've started to recognize when it's time for me to take time off and when it's been too long is when I sit there at my desk and I just feel like the one lifetime television woman for women, movie tear just go down my cheek.

Jamie: 1:05:45

I thought you were gonna say like, when your eye starts twitching. I was like, that would

Rebecca: 1:05:48

No, just like the involuntary weep that I didn't know I was doing, and then I was like, oh

Jamie: 1:05:53

it's not involuntary, it's your body. Just trying to tell you to take time off. All right. I'm gonna be a big, I'm gonna be a bigger bitch to you about it.

Rebecca: 1:06:05

No, I mean, I'm, I'm good. I'm getting better. I

Jamie: 1:06:10

Don't take this away from

Rebecca: 1:06:11

whole weeks off in August. I'm taking two weeks off in August,

Jamie: 1:06:15

Good. We get so much.

Rebecca: 1:06:17

time to like ramp back up. Oh, sorry.

Jamie: 1:06:18

We get so much time off at my job, so I'd be damned if the toxic place I work at is going to shame me for you. Exactly. I feel like I, I

Rebecca: 1:06:26

spike, PTO.

Jamie: 1:06:28

yeah. I see Rebecca can get behind that look at her face like,

Rebecca: 1:06:33

Yeah.

Jamie: 1:06:34

that's it. This is where Rebecca lights up.

Rebecca: 1:06:38

Oh, I'm gonna use my time off at you. You know who you can't yell at if, uh, I'm not here, me. Bye. Yeah. Spike PTO.

Jamie: 1:06:50

I've made my schedule four day weeks instead of five. Yes. That's amazing. Good. That's awesome. Be more like you.

Rebecca: 1:07:00

we just had to frame this, we just had to frame this correctly for me, despite PTOI can absolutely do.

Jamie: 1:07:05

Well, I think that's it. I was gonna say, I think that's the mindset we all need to have is like you can, like you said, you can get dropped, laid off, fired, let go, whatever you wanna call it. At any point, these people don't care about you. They care about the bottom line, they care about the money. You are just like a number. You are just like a number of an employee. You need to remember that.

Rebecca: 1:07:30

But like a really valued number. You're a really valued number of this team.

Jamie: 1:07:38

But I just think if more people think like that, maybe that will encourage us. What do we call it? Like spite to spite?

Rebecca: 1:07:48

I love spite to,

Jamie: 1:07:49

I don't know.

Rebecca: 1:07:52

I don't know. It's still there. BTO spite

Jamie: 1:07:54

Spite. No. We'll figure it out.

Rebecca: 1:07:58

Spider.

Jamie: 1:08:00

I had to schedule my wedding for a day. I was going to be off so I wouldn't lose money. See, and that's another thing. Yeah. It's not just like guilt, it's literally about surviving and being able to live. And keep a roof over your head a lot of times.

Rebecca: 1:08:17

Yeah. Oh

Jamie: 1:08:20

Yeah. Put it on a shirt then let me know when it's in your shop. Yeah. We'll have to think about something a little wittier than spite dio.

Rebecca: 1:08:30

Yeah. No, it's just a capitalist hellscape that's never gonna get better

Jamie: 1:08:34

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca: 1:08:36

and we're all gonna die. Crushed slowly to death by the cogs of the machine.

Jamie: 1:08:40

Yeah. Don't just don't let that be your life.

Rebecca: 1:08:46

Yeah.

Jamie: 1:08:48

Stick it to the man you guys. Stick it to the man.

Rebecca: 1:08:53

I will say one thing though, all y'all who are going on vacation, you need to stop going to volcanoes. I have read multiple stories in the past couple weeks now. People fucking falling into volcanoes. Volcanoes on vacation, what the fuck whatcha doing on a volcano and then dying on vacation. That's enough of that.

Jamie: 1:09:12

How dare you die on a vacation that is not a

Rebecca: 1:09:15

Don't go on volcanoes and don't take a cruise ship. Stay on land where bad things in the ocean don't happen.

Jamie: 1:09:21

Oh God.

Rebecca: 1:09:22

Yeah. Oh, that Netflix, that fucked me up,

Jamie: 1:09:26

Oh my God. The poop cruise.

Rebecca: 1:09:28

except the one girl who was like, I, we had to pee in the shower and it was okay, calm down, Karen peeing in the shower as if it was like a third world country. just

Jamie: 1:09:38

Marina's like just never leave home. You just don't leave home. Maybe I always have to take the perspective of if I would encourage my coworker, family or friend to take time off, then I gotta do it for myself. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, and even Yeah. Just people you work with. Yeah.

Rebecca: 1:09:53

Yeah. Take

Jamie: 1:09:54

if you manage people like they're looking at you, so you should lead by example and also encourage them looking at you, Rebecca.

Rebecca: 1:10:06

I do encourage them. I am very good at encouraging.

Jamie: 1:10:10

Right, but then you are also giving a different message by not taking time off as much.

Rebecca: 1:10:15

I know,

Jamie: 1:10:16

We'll work on it.

Rebecca: 1:10:17

I know. We'll

Jamie: 1:10:19

Just remember, spite, spite,

Rebecca: 1:10:23

but I like, I, but see, and that's the thing, like I do like my boss and he is very encouraging and fine. It's fine.

Jamie: 1:10:33

Well, think about something else you're spiteful about and then take time off. I'm taking a spite day. That's what it should be. Taking a

Rebecca: 1:10:42

I will say one more thing, and this isn't like Kool-Aid drinking. This is the only place I've ever worked at where I have seen multiple men out on paternity leave. Like not, you know how usually it's just like that one guy, like more than five guys here that I've heard of have

Jamie: 1:11:00

I would've assumed.

Rebecca: 1:11:02

paternity leave.

Jamie: 1:11:03

I would've assumed that as soon as people started off, companies started offering like paternity leave or parental leave that

Rebecca: 1:11:14

lot of places didn't

Jamie: 1:11:16

oh, I know. A lot of places done it. Yeah, but I'm saying like I would expect men to like flock to that and be like, okay, I'm gonna do that.

Rebecca: 1:11:24

Three week vacation, bro.

Jamie: 1:11:27

They're not breastfeeding. They don't have to stay up in the middle. Get up like five times in the middle of the night like you seem unwell. Better take a sick day tomorrow. For spite. For spite Rebecca. Do it for spite. I don't know guys. I think she lost it. She's not the spiteful. Rebecca we once knew

Rebecca: 1:11:48

Oh my God. I'm gonna get spied into being spiteful.

Jamie: 1:11:52

spite it into me. That's what I'm trying to do. Is it working?

Rebecca: 1:11:58

Yeah,

Jamie: 1:11:59

They have, I'm not even gonna read what Rob said. We don't even,

Rebecca: 1:12:03

yeah. Take. Take the maternity leave. Take the sick leave. Take the leave. Take the surgery. Leave recover.

Jamie: 1:12:13

Hey, take time to recover. And also, yeah, take time to like actually go on vacation. Take time to have a staycation. And also,

Rebecca: 1:12:20

do as we say, not as we do. Do as we say. Not as we do.

Jamie: 1:12:24

and also I just wanna remind everyone, fuck, now I lost my train of thought.

Rebecca: 1:12:28

Sorry.

Jamie: 1:12:29

No, no, no. It's okay. We were talking, I was taking, taking days off for vacation. Oh. I wanna remind you, you don't owe it to anyone to tell them what you're doing, where you're going about your super private medical surgery that you have to get done. Like you just say, Hey, I got. Nothing to do. I need time off or like, Hey, I'm going on vacation. Like

Rebecca: 1:12:58

Because we're all adults

Jamie: 1:12:59

I volunteer information about it, I just feel like it's none of your business.

Rebecca: 1:13:06

Yeah. The only coworker I volunteered the reduction surgery about was Megan, who wanted to see the new ones, which as I'm saying that right now, is probably an HR violation. But she asked

Jamie: 1:13:18

Can you imagine?

Rebecca: 1:13:20

no.'cause she made me go into the bathroom and show her.

Jamie: 1:13:24

John asked to see my tits, so I showed him

Rebecca: 1:13:30

Oh,

Jamie: 1:13:30

this is a perfect end. It's none of your business. Yes. Louder It is. None of anyone's business. I mean, I don't mind if I'm going on vacation to say, oh, I'm doing this, I'm doing this. But like also like sometimes I wanna take a staycation.

Rebecca: 1:13:45

And you want it to be like private sometimes. Sometimes it was like, I don't know. What if it was your honeymoon? I don't wanna know how your honeymoon was. I hope it was good, but I'm sure you don't wanna tell me how your honeymoon was,

Jamie: 1:13:55

Yeah. And also if we could discourage the people who like want to volunteer that information about their private lives at work, that would be great,

Rebecca: 1:14:07

but you can tell me though. I do wanna know.

Jamie: 1:14:11

especially if something happened that Rebecca can be spiteful about with you.

Rebecca: 1:14:15

Yeah, tell me. Tell me your medical conditions and

Jamie: 1:14:18

Tell me your medical conditions. Rebecca, this is not at all what I was just talking about.

Rebecca: 1:14:25

I just wanna know. I just wanna know, just, Hey girl,

Jamie: 1:14:28

mean, if it, if it's, what's your diagnosis? Girl? Rebecca just wants to know the hot goss. It's

Rebecca: 1:14:36

Yes. Literally.

Jamie: 1:14:37

an appendectomy. Ooh, tell me more.

Rebecca: 1:14:41

Yeah. Yeah. Please do.

Jamie: 1:14:48

Oh yeah, we do have to get lunch.

Rebecca: 1:14:51

Well, we are reaching out to a couple people to see if they'll be on as guests, but we currently don't have anyone scheduled for anytime soon, but hopefully we will.

Jamie: 1:14:59

Yeah. And I do, I wanna stress again, like we would love any of you Yes. You, to come on as a guest. If, um, you have something to talk about, you have something you're passionate about. what?

Rebecca: 1:15:11

sorry, Marina's.

Jamie: 1:15:13

Hello? No.

Rebecca: 1:15:14

like weird. I didn't get into this. Marina, you should come on and talk to us about admin leave.

Jamie: 1:15:18

marina and Rob were giving me shit the other day because like, oh, I've never been invited. And I was like, Rob said that he wanted to come on and talk about being burnt out from women. And I was like, okay. No.

Rebecca: 1:15:31

I mean that it, we equal opportunity

Jamie: 1:15:34

No, no, no. He wasn't serious. He was just being robbed. And then reina's, like, you never invited me. And I just, it's always been an open invitation to anybody. I just assume if you don't bring it up with me, you're not, or with us, like, you're not super interested in it. I think most of my friends are introverts and they're like, no, I do not want to go on your podcast.

Rebecca: 1:15:58

on video. Go fuck

Jamie: 1:15:59

Yeah. I don't know how we're here. So we would never, we would never wish this podcast upon anyone. Sounds terrible. No. but yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca: 1:16:08

should bring one of our parents on one of these weeks. Just be like,

Jamie: 1:16:11

I would love to,

Rebecca: 1:16:12

explain, explain.

Jamie: 1:16:14

would also love to like pick my mom's brain as, uh. Because she was a stay at home mom for so long, and I'd like to like just pick her brain about like her experience more and yeah.

Rebecca: 1:16:32

My mom is a stay at home mom, but she did do, she's a sign language interpreter, which is actually pretty smart because it's not like you're gonna forget that language. Do you know what I mean? Like. You're gonna know how to interpret. So that's actually a really good idea if you do have to take parental time off. But anyway, she, so she would have, and some days she'd bring me to work, like she couldn't get to sit her or someone couldn't watch me. And those, those were my favorite days. Like, I loved going to work with my mom'cause she worked on college campuses. So I would bring like all my crays and pencils with me and my paper, and I would sit in the back of the class taking college class with her and she'd be interpreting and, uh, yeah, she, yeah, I, but the fact that you have to bring your kid to work or you don't get paid as I said that out loud, I have a great memory. She must have been so freaked out or so upset that she couldn't find anyone and she wouldn't get paid if she didn't work.

Jamie: 1:17:29

Yeah. Yep.

Rebecca: 1:17:32

So my great memory is like one of.

Jamie: 1:17:35

Your mom's like worst experiences. Your best childhood memory with your mom is one that like where she was burnt out as fuck. I hope you're happy.

Rebecca: 1:17:54

shit.

Jamie: 1:17:58

Wait, hang

Rebecca: 1:17:59

Um,

Jamie: 1:18:01

Oh, I'm at work When you do the podcast, dammit. I wanna say take a day off, but I know what that means for you, so I'm not going to, I don't know if y'all have talked about navigating childhood trauma while understanding your parents are human, but that would be interesting. I'm sorry. q do you wanna come on and talk about navigating, uh, childhood trauma while understanding your parents are human? Would you like to about that? She would. That was a yes.

Rebecca: 1:18:27

it. I would love to hear,

Jamie: 1:18:30

all right guys.

Rebecca: 1:18:32

thank you again for joining us. Love having you here. Love these conversations. Love unpacking secret trauma

Jamie: 1:18:41

love getting more depressed and stressed with you guys. It's our fate.

Rebecca: 1:18:45

love it.

Jamie: 1:18:45

Uh oh. The dogs are getting into

Rebecca: 1:18:49

I just opened the door and I was trying to be professional and ignore them and hold them off, but sorry.

Jamie: 1:18:55

They're like, look at me. No, don't be sorry. The dogs are fine. All right. Thank you everybody for being here. yeah. You don't owe people shit.

Rebecca: 1:19:04

week.

Jamie: 1:19:05

Take time off.

Rebecca: 1:19:06

time off. We're all gonna be dead anyway.

Jamie: 1:19:09

Bye.