I know I'm talking to, to white women. white. Mm-hmm. Women, you can just say white women. Are we white? I didn't know I am Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective. Hello. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back. We have Morgan Smith with us today. Hey Morgan. So glad to have her. I'm excited. thank you so much for joining us. This is, both exciting and nerve wracking for me. I have not been on a live anything since 20, 20, 20 21. It's been a while. Hey, like we've done, we've had people on the show that have never done a podcast, so Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. You're doing great. Totally, totally good. so Morgan was sick a couple weeks ago when she was supposed to come on. I'm still, I'm almost out of it, but I'm still getting over being sick and now Rebecca's sick today, so we're doing great. Yeah. Sorry in advance. I do have the privacy flap if I need to blow my nose. But stop, sniff, stop calling a flap. I'm not, 'cause it's a flap. Ugh. Privacy shutter. Shutter is fine, but I like flap. Just you don't like flap? You just like it because I hate it because it grosses me out. See? Yeah. That's what I like picture, flaps. But, I, when you said flap, I, that's not, it's fine. Nevermind. Yeah, it's fine. Nevermind. We're good. We're good. So we can, we can talk more about flaps later. Later. Sound quality on my end is not gonna be great. Apologies in advance, but, we are still glad you're here. so Thank you. Me too. I'll try to sniff off mic. Hey, manic. can I go, do y'all have a, do y'all have a run of show that doesn't allow for like curves? That doesn't allow for what? Curves or. Oh, no, no. We can just throw some stuff in. We can do whatever we want. I have not, I know that y'all are gonna be, to some degree interviewing me, but I have not interviewed in a very, very long time, probably since me and Rebecca worked together. Can I ask y'all a question as like a starter? Yeah, please do. Please that. Okay. burnout collective, like when I think about burnout in general, I think about like people who help me through burnout time. And I was wondering for you two both like when your life best curbs, like a crash out when you're burning out. who in your life pulls you, pulls you out of the burnout, crash out Rebecca. Anything. Maybe it's a thing, maybe it's not a person. I, I was gonna say, so like in the middle of a crash out, like when there's no one else around, it's the dogs. So the dogs know like when my blood pressure is high, like I'm upset and they'll all come over and lay on me. yeah, so like I get like that heavy pressure weight and that is really helpful and just coming down. But if it's like on a bigger scale over days, it's like Janie would be the one I call and just blah too. Yeah. Yeah. I guess my cats too. And also it's usually Rebecca, Rebecca's the one that like, knows everything. Knows everything. Like I've been through and understands. 'cause I think also like luckily or not, I don't know, we have been doing the same thing in our career. So we also understand it like work-wise, like work burnout. We kind of like understand. A little more closely because we do the same thing and we're in like the same kind of like sector or have been. so that's helpful. But the cats also, my friends, like I do a lot of dissociating where I'll like game, so I'll just like game to dissociate. And I have a lot of friends that like I game with and they like, we just laugh and have fun and fool around and that kind of just makes me forget, just makes me forget. I love that you, what about you have each other? Yeah. What about you? Is it, is it more pet based or people based? definitely more people based. I would say my, my immediate go-to is like journaling. I, I like to write. Yeah. So if I, if I'm starting to spiral, like I'll just start like writing shit down. but. If it's at a critical level, like I need to talk to somebody, it's my brother. It's just me and him always has been all of my life. And, I don't really know how I survive in this life without him. I do suffer from, from panic attacks occasionally. And so I know that when, if it's middle of the night, like if it's early morning, if it's middle of the day he's at work, like I can call and he will, he'll ground me either on the phone or if he's I'm on my way, I'm in. So yeah, definitely, definitely my brother for me will just tell me I know the things that I need to hear from someone and I can repeat it to someone else, but like mm-hmm. Oh, tell me I'm okay. Tell me I'm safe. Like I can hear it back, but it doesn't hit unless it's from him. Yeah. So he says it. Then I can be like. You're okay. Everything's fine. And then I'll just, I'm still crashing out a little bit, but not at the level that's like massive. That's a good older brother. Like that's a, that's a really sweet older brother. That's awesome. Learned. Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. Okay. Thanks for indulging. No, I like, I love that. I think that was really awesome. You're the first person to do that, so thank you. Thank you for caring about us and us being burnt out. that's great. But I think too, that's why we do this because we, and I think we talked about this a little bit with you Morgan, but we get to have these conversations like, I guess two on one, not one-on-one, but like two on one with a ton of really awesome people. And so far it's been badass women. and that kind of helps us to build community and hearing everybody's stories like I. Everyone's burnt out in different ways, and sometimes we're burnt out in multiple ways. But, just hearing everybody's stories and like coming together, I dunno, it makes me feel a lot less alone and that's like, why we do this, because we don't want anyone to like, feel so alone. Like they can't get out. so yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree. I think, the less, the less that we talk about it, like the more that people fit in it. and I think it took me a while to realize that certainly working in HR and working in a like tech startup space, I don't think like anybody is comfortable saying, I am uncomfortable here, or Right. I feel tired here, or I, I don't wanna, or This is too much. Yeah. I, yeah, like too much is just too much for me. And like you're potentially held with I. Golden handcuffs or like there are a lot of things that like keep you in something. So like I think the more that people at minimum talk about it, it's not gonna solve the problem in full, but it creates space and opportunity for healing some of the like, critical issues that lead to. So I think, yeah, like the conversation that y'all are starting is important. when you just said that, what's so interesting is all the tech startups I've worked at have been headed up by men who either had wives who took care of the kids at home or didn't have kids and they were able to just, give it a hundred percent and give it their all because they had a wife back home doing all this stuff. Yeah. You brought up something really critical and I, I wanna take you back to a place that we work together, Uhhuh. With a, a leader, I'll just say a leader who, when we were both there without children, and I remember us both having some sort of conversations with this person about parenthood and about what it means to leave and go to a retreat and like what the planning looks like to even be able to do things like that. hey, if you and your partner are thinking about having children, I just want you to know like things are gonna shift, your priorities are gonna shift the way that you think about the way that you build things for your company are going to shift. And, left that company maybe six to eight months later and, connected still with people that worked there and found out that that leader had a child about a year after, was like, oops. This is different. Can't do this. Yep. In the same way that we used to. And, that company is now essentially dissolved. couldn't Yeah. Way. it's very easy to burn out when you are a parent mm-hmm. And trying to be a leader in a company. And if you are not familiar with that, or at least trying to be empathetic, try to understand what's happening around you, it will crumble. Oh yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I, I don't have kids and I just, I don't understand, I don't understand how parents do it. I don't get it. if you'll Yeah. that's the same retreat went on where my child had been in the hospital two weeks prior and I still had to go, so Yep. It was like mandatory. Mm-hmm. And I was very much don't. Don't come, don't do that. No, I know. You were the only one. I know. Your manager was like, yes, her too. Yeah. Yeah. so yeah. Yeah, and it's, I say that in that I don't think that there should be like special privilege given to parents, but just like the awareness in general of people's burnout and what their specific situations are like. That's a managerial response. It's just empathy. Yes. It's literally just being an empathetic manager and to be a part of management. Yeah. You know how to do that at base level, understand your people and where they're at and what they're going through, and then help them navigate and make decisions mm-hmm. That are right for them. You should be a manager. Mm-hmm. No, you shouldn't hang it. I'm always talking about how like we, we need management training. 'cause people are becoming managers that shouldn't be fucking managers. People are becoming managers that like it. Maybe it seems like they shouldn't be a manager, but it's just that they were just thrown into this role and they just they don't know what they're doing. And I think everybody can benefit. Yeah. I think everybody can benefit. How many companies have you been at where they've done like management training, like legitimately? legitimately, so first of all, legitimate first time manager training that is dedicated to people management. Mm-hmm. I've been at one company and I've been in the HR people space for 10 years. Yeah. One company that has, that's bonkers to me. That's stupid. Two people management. I've been at two companies maybe that had if you want it. There's an outsourced opportunity for you to grab this up as part of your learning and development, but it's not forced upon you. It's not anything that you like. It's mandatory you have to do. Yeah. and then at one company where I had the beautiful opportunity to build things from scratch, I created a first time manager, training that was really founded on, as you come in to people management, understanding your team. That was really all there was to, it had nothing to do with you, like there are, delegation and like some of that stuff that's like secondary, but like, how do you just come in and understand who you're working with? How do they work? How do they like to communicate? How do they like feedback? Like all those like baseline things. Here's how to be a human being like. To some degree that we like to just skip over and just assume that everyone's on the same page. But the reality is everyone's on the same page. And the way that I found that out was like actually sharing that about myself with people. So like when I would come in as an HR leader or an HR business partner, I would share who I am. This is how I work. These are my basic hours. I have two kids and sometimes unexpectedly I'm gonna call out, here's how I like to receive feedback. I cuss occasionally. I'm gonna share all that. All of that upfront with you. Mm-hmm. And then people will be like, damn, like that really? That set the tone. Yeah. I know how to work with you now. Giving that to people up front allowed them to give it back to me. It gave them authority and permission to give it back to me. And they were like, I would love to do this in my teams. And so creating that space for that to to be an option. Yeah. Nice. I love to share, Hey, this is how I manage. Or with my manager for example, Hey, this is how I like to be managed. This is how to best manage me. And it's like sometimes, like most people don't do that. Most people don't share that. But I think it's really important. And so I also ask, if I get direct reports, I say like, how do you prefer to be managed? How do you prefer to communicate? what's your style? And because I wanna cater to that as well, if it's, if I'm, I am managing different people, like an editor and an SEO person and like a writer, maybe the writer prefers to be communicated to differently because they're so like heads down focused on getting like their writing done that they won't see Slack. So it's oh, make sure you at me or make sure, send me an email because I check my email like on my little, like Pomodoro breaks or whatever. but I think that's so important. Yeah. Like that foundational work is really key to setting the tone for an employee's overall success. And yeah, I found that I'm biased like everyone else, and I, I do have a heart for black women specifically. and I found that as an HR business partner, certainly leading product focus teams, so like sales teams that have black women on them, and that's very, very rare. I try to figure out like what their things are and like share that with their leaders. It's like mm-hmm. If you, if you wanna keep, you wanna do right by them. Yeah. Here's how they work and here's how you can get to how they work even more deeply. And it's just Trying to coach people to be able to just be more human and empathetic to what people are experiencing and like their, their differences. the neuro spicy folks like try to pull all of those things out early on and you don't have to be six months in wondering why someone is pulling back. Yeah. Yeah. They seem like they're drained. Why? They seem like they're not showing up the way that you expected when you were in the interview process with them, or you've fucking sucked them dry and here's how you could have changed that. So like showing up early on in those ways is like super helpful. Yeah. Knowing how to communicate is so important because otherwise you end up making the engineering director cry at a offer, at a retreat. 'cause you answered his question the way that you thought he wanted to answered. yeah. All. No, this, this is like a teeny bit off topic, but you said like in catering to like the neuro spicy folks and we're obviously neurodivergent, so we talk about that a lot. So I love that you said that, but I was just thinking, I went and got a haircut like a few weeks ago and I'm always late. I am late for everything. I have a DHD, I have time blindness. I'm late for everything. I know it pisses off a lot of people who, who love me. and even when I try my best, but anyway, so I'm always late for my hair appointment and I don't like that because I'm like, that's so fucking rude. this is like her time. don't do that. And I love my hairstylist. She's awesome. Shout out Ashley, I love you. but, I like. Dissolve. I like resolved to get up early and it was like a morning appointment. So I got up super early, which is not like me. So like I could get there on time. And even though I got up like an hour and a half before I had to be there, before I had to leave, I still was gonna end up being a little bit late. So I texted her to say Hey, I'm so sorry, I really tried, but I'm not gonna be there until 10, 15 after. And she was like, Jamie. And then she called me immediately and she's okay. She's Hey, let's do our consult now over the phone so that when you get here and sit down, like we can do that. And I was like, oh my God. It's like you're catering to me being neurodivergent. That's so sweet. Thank you. And like she shouldn't have to do that, but I thought that was like really sweet and that was like also a really nice way to I don't know, go about it. Yeah. It was like honor who you are as a person and to some degree like. Just say I get it. you don't have to, you don't have to feel bad about this. Yeah. We can make, we can make these adjustments and everything still be okay. Yeah. Like I feel like sometimes specifically on a management piece, people feel like if we make these adjustments then like to change the whole way I do everything. It's no, actually don't, like you can make an adjustment for something specific. Mm-hmm. Just be for that something specific and it's for that person. It doesn't, as long, as, long as it's not like iTMB balancing something, like we're not making something inequitable. Why not? You know what I mean? Yeah. So like, why not honor that person and who they are and say they see you, they understand what's difficult for you in this realm, and I'm gonna shift. Mm-hmm. Because of that and That's a lovely way to, to honor someone as a human being. Yeah. I would fire you as a client. I would fire you if you like. The third time you did that to me, I would fire your ass so hard. Yeah. She really should fire me. I like, do try though. 'cause I love her so much. I've been going to her for close to a decade. she's like the only person. I hope you tip her. Amazing. Oh, I I hope you tip her. I do. Okay, good. Now she's no, I'm just kidding. I think I do, I think I do a good job. she's the greatest. But it seems like she's legitimately made an adjustment for you. Mm-hmm. And she, she just gets it. Yeah. It's almost like when you book, she's probably already expecting to some degree. She always says she's gonna change the time and just tell me a different time. Everybody's, and I was like, you just should. She's already. She's already built it in. Yeah. And that's, that's a kind, that's just being a, a great human, in my opinion. Yeah. Alyssa in chat said little Rebecca, you meant you were firing Jamie. Yes, of course. That's what she meant. meeting people where they are is a skill and hopely can be the standard. she said, I hear a lot of trust extended in that approach. She was talking about your approach, Morgan. which can feel so vulnerable at work, but it's also great, but it's also to create a space where people get to bring their full self to work. that's awesome. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I love that. I, I, I'll also just say, I appreciate that as a, as a thought. I'll also just say, because I'm hearing this is what we're talking about, I just also don't believe in bringing your full self to work ever. Oh, no. Mm-hmm. I've done that once. It burned me greatly. Yeah. so full self in waves is the way that I would probably place it. I, I don't feel that I'm inauthentic at work, like I'm my authentic self. I also feel like I am my authentic self with boundaries in boundaries. I have deep understanding of who I am being my authentic self with. And sometimes that means I'm gonna give it to you right here and I'm gonna pull it back. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna give it to you right here and pull, I'm gonna pull it back. It's not just like this constant free flow of Morgan being her authentic self. Yeah. I think that that can burn you. And I would like to, I'm gonna call it out in the space. I know I'm talking to, to resenting white women. white. Mm-hmm. Women, you can just say white women. Are we white? I didn't know Morgan White. Listen, you could be presenting white and, and not be white. Don't be. Look at my dad. I I will show you a picture of my dad. I don't have no, look at my dad's just, I have a picture of him nearby. if it weren't for his hair, I forgot where I was going for a second. Bringing your true self, but also your boundaried self to work basically. Yeah. Just like hitting pause on showing everything specifically for minorities, specifically for minority women. Mm-hmm. because sometimes that can hold you back. and I did find specifically in the tech startup space, but the more that I showed, the more I got knocked back. So I learned to be meek. I learned to be quiet in some spaces just to elevate and then I Elevated and elevation, elevation in title, status, salary. Yeah. And the more burnt out I got. If we're talking about burnout, the more I got up here, the more burnout hit and I just got knocked back even more. So I would say, I think the idea of being your authentic self in the workplace is, man, I wish it could be. Yeah. Oh, no, no, no. I just I don't think that we're anywhere close to it. No, I don't think we're close. No. Which is unfortunate. Very unfortunate. It is. I would like to be there too. I agree with Morgan. Like I would, I would love that. But that's not, unfortunately, it's not gonna happen. Yeah, no, I am, I'm good with not showing up at a hundred percent. It's, it never ends. I don't know. Day one when I met you, I feel like you were very 100% with me. I guess maybe a little held back, but yeah, I just, it never ends well, and then you have to overexplain and then you already set a tone and it's just, yeah, with boundaries, boundaries are good. I don't know. I feel like even when you are, like, even when you are super open, it doesn't, I feel like I remember your interview, Rebecca, at the place that we worked together, and I remember to some degree in, maybe not the first interview, but like interview two being like like nonchalantly. I, I, I was like, I was open yeah, I'm not happy here, but Here are the good things and here are the bad things and and then you're just like bringing people into the sub to some degree because most of us, whether it's bad or good mm-hmm. People can be their authentic selves to you and whether it's bad or good, they'll be like, if it fits what I need in that moment, I'm gonna do. Yeah. And I think for you in that moment, it was like child in the family and let's do it. It was like no matter what I said, it wouldn't have mattered. You can be fully authentic and like still bring people into the bullshit. That part really sucked for me as a human. I think that's where my like tech startup honestly like started was with you, where I was like, I just brought this woman into trash. Listen, I can't forget myself. Hey, there's something to be said about the honesty though, I have to say. Like that alone. So at the retreat, at the retreat, like the, whatever he was director of Engineering was like, all right guys, we're gonna think bid and brainstorm. Wow. How do we make the engineering team more diverse? And my answer was, stop hiring all these white guys. 'cause they had just hired like three white guys in a row. And I made him cry. Why? He And he ran and cried, cry. 'cause he's a big pussy baby. I don't know. He ran and tackles old and I was in the, I was in the hiring process for him. He, I, he, I think that he knew Rebecca. I think that he knew he was one of three. That's our Rebecca, white male, Asian woman. Asian male, yeah. And he won. Yeah. Because he was like, I shouldn't even be. You shouldn't have. But yeah, that's, that's just the kind of bullshit that it was, it was like performative. Yeah. They didn't really mean it, but all the smart people who I know aren't, some of 'em are there, most of 'em left, which is good. I'm trying to think. so act, so what I wanted to tack on, like the showing up to your, as yourself. So the other thing that's happened is, oh, actually someone that we know showed up as their self and then asked for a DA accommodations for that and then did not get them. Which, or it was just like the company was acting like it was, that that was after, was it not? No, it was after. Yeah, it was after. It was after. but it's just so then it's okay, well now, now I've, now I've. Expose myself now. I put myself out there and ask for accommodations and now they know this about me and it's you can't, you can't win. Even though legally they have to give it. Now you kind of like put a target on your back and exposed yourself and it's just mm-hmm. I'm still job searching now, Morgan. Yeah. And that's what like Rebecca was like, don't put that you have a disability. Don't put that you have a DHD or depression. I never do. Let me be very clear about the way that I fill out applications and I hate it. I struggle with it. Tell lies. I have a very American name. It is white potentially, and unisex. My name is my name without my previously married name is Morgan Smith. Morgan could be male or female. Smith, God knows anything. So when you see an application, you truly, yeah, do not know. And so I. Live in that like boundary, like I lean Yeah. I hate to say that. I lean into that and then when I fill out the rest of the application, what is your race two or more is what I tend to fill out. That's good news. It could be, it's none their business. Let's be real. If we're talking slavery, the realistic answer is two or more. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah. Yeah. That everyone to interpret on their own. the only thing that I answer honestly is am, am I a veteran or not? Mm-hmm. Which is No, everything else y'all figure it out. I hate that. 'cause I'm such like. To a fault. I feel like I'm a very, honest person, so I struggle with that. But Rebecca was like, no, you can't put that. Especially now with the new administration, don't put, you know that you have a disability. And so I'm not now, but every time I still am like, ugh, I hate it. I know. It's, it is a moral, it's a moral conflict for me as well. I'm not going to lie. It's a moral conflict for me when I do it. But also, I gotta get, I, I gotta find a way to be seen. And I, if I fill it out, honestly, the likelihood of me not being seen is higher. Mm-hmm. And so I just try to, I try to give myself an additional chance, like that's the reality. Have you seen that they've started asking for video, like clips or just just so network and if anyone, if any company is asking for that, for me. Oh, they, they've been doing this for a while though. They've been doing this for a while. my brother specifically, who works in, he is an account executive or a senior account executive. Sometimes he'll be applying for sales roles and they'll, they will ask for a video introduction or what, and I'm like, don't do it. Yeah. Don't do it. that is so invasive. It is 100% a way to bias you out. Yeah. To introduce tons of bias. Yeah. Abso, like if, if a company is asking for that, it's not the company free. I saw a freelance writer gig that they were like, oh, and also please include a two minute intro video about yourself. And I was like, what does video have to do with writing? This isn't even a full-time job. Mm-hmm. come on. No. And I think that you, I'm not, I don't know, I'm not. Conspiracy, but I think that they like use like AI stuff too. Like just put yourself into a bank on videos and this is what you speak and this is the way people present and like they use for other stuff. Thank no, I I You're totally a hundred percent correct on that one. Yeah, no, I'm not doing any of that. And either they hire me or they don't hire me and I'm not bending over backwards. Yeah, that's just, it's like the 1950s when they wanted like secretaries to submit their head shots. It's stupid. But then it's been six months and you still don't have a job. That's the problem I'm running into. Yeah. You just start sending head shots. Yeah. See what happens. Cut. Let's see. Tell us how it turns things around. Yeah. You gotta make my intro video with the eagle, Rebecca. That's true. When you feel better. When you feel better. Yeah. No, it's, it's crazy. So you are, so you are currently exploring other options and you, you left your burnout situation unemployed. Yes. That's very nice of you. I didn't wanna just be like, that's okay. Yes. I, unemployed, happily unemployed. I, I decided that what I was doing was no longer serving me. I used to feel really good about HR work. I used to feel excited about what it brought me. I used to feel thrilled by connecting with people, even in the tech startup space. But I have not felt that way for several years. And I feel like I did have a little bit of golden handcuffs. if you're making, you are making six figures plus. Hey, like you're taking care of your family. Like you, you can make it, you feel good. And it was the only thing holding me, like there was, there was literally nothing else holding me to the job. And I had to like, put it on paper like, what? What's keeping you here? And yeah, I decided that the only thing really keeping me was the idea of making a difference, not that I actually was the idea of it and the money. Yeah. And so I had to choose can I make the idea a reality, the idea of making a difference. I make that a reality somewhere else. Make the money somewhere else. Yeah. Both of those remain to be seen. It's only been two weeks, I, I decided to leave what was draining my soul behind. Yeah. What do you, how does it feel every day to get up? What are you feeling? Oh, you're trying to make me cry. Oh, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry. I just meant I was hoping the answer was like, I'm good and I sleep in. I didn't mean make you cry, I'm sorry. Yeah. No, I don't, I don't sleep in at all. Sleep. Sleeping in would be really lovely. I think I did take like maybe three or four days where I was like, I think the sleep in was just like burn the day out. So you don't feel hyper anxious about what's next. Yeah. To some degree it was just like, sure, I did this thing and I really don't have. So let me go to sleep. Yeah. And I probably, I probably, in all honesty, I probably needed the sleep too. So like there was, there was that part as well, but like I just, in order to not think about what was next, I wake up every day. I keep it 100 like anxious. Yeah. I'm a single mom with two kids, single. I have a mortgage, I have the bills, I have things to take care of. Mm-hmm. Keep these string lights on. and beyond a couple months, I dunno how I'm gonna do in full. I don't really know how I'm going to do that. And so that sucks. But I'm also really confident in what I bring to the table. I've done it before. Yes. I a hundred percent created. Business from scratch. And so that's what I plan to do. there are so many people looking for work right now, and with my background, I know that I can help people Yes. Get to work. Even if I am not doing it for myself, I can help people get to work. So that's the service that I, I plan to, to boast. But yeah, like I, I wake up every day a little bit anxious, but also like I do feel really free. I wanna add that on top of it. Do you feel like empowered? Yeah. there's a difference between feeling burnt out, anxious, mm-hmm. And feeling like unknown, excited, anxious. Mm-hmm. Those are two totally different things. Oh yeah. And so I was feeling burnt out, anxious, I don't wanna do this anymore. I don't know where to go. I don't know what I'm doing, but I know that I'm miserable and now I'm feeling like I. I'm anxious, but like the opportunity is there and if I capitalize on it, if I wake, like I, I'm waking up early because like I feel the, feel the grind, like I feel excited by the grind. A little bit like Rebecca, like I'm doing like TikTok and there's some social media content, like push for all, like the creative juices and things are flowing. So like I'm not waking up early because I don't anything. It's just I don't know, but I have this inkling of a box of possibility. I just wanna wake up early to tap into it. that's right now. Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. It's for now, I hope it remains exciting. Like I, I, I do have the, like the pressure, there's pressure on Making what you think can work actually work? Oh, yeah. Actually come to fruition. I'm not, I'm not a hundred percent sure that it will happen. I do have my fallbacks for sure. I'm gonna start applying to shit just in case. But like my hope is that I can just ride this wave that is me. I have to tap back into that little box that like really didn't serve me. Yeah, yeah. You're putting your faith back into your, yeah. Your faith is going back into yourself instead of some douche bag at the top of a company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying to just pour it all that like different type of, when you start watching like the big dogs of these, like what are relatively actually small companies, we're not talking Fortune 500, where like you're like, like we're just talking like small companies like act They're so above you and it's you know that this can be stripped from you by any moment. you know that, you know that. Hold on. Hello? Hi. Hey. It's fine. We can hear you. Can you hear? Yeah, we can hear you just fine. Yeah. Okay, then we're just gonna do it without headphones. Okay. Does it track audio at all? Okay. No. yeah. Letting those like big dogs at the top. pretend like I'm so above you. It's like we're the ones holding this shit together. oh yeah. You who's doing the work? We're doing the work. yeah. Yeah. That's, Yeah, that's, and I, one of the things I said to you is if you were somebody else who wasn't as smart or fucking talented as you, I'd be like, but you're one of the rare people I know who I can see actually doing this because of just how good you are. So I'm crossing my fingers for you. I think it's amazing. I haven't even, I will say that I did reach out to Rebecca like a week into my, I quit and I am, and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm scared. I feel like this is a big mistake. And I think everybody has that moment and you just need a friend to be like, you're right. This is gonna be okay. Yeah, you're gonna be okay. Which I needed, and it, it catapulted me. I feel okay. I'm honest. Like I was honest. If you were a stupid friend, I would tell you don't do this. But you're not a stupid friend. if anyone deserves to be in charge of their own company, you're one of the very few people I know. So when are we starting our own company, ladies? Next week or, yeah, Monday. I just take the weekend at least. Morgan's gonna start her own podcast and oh. Yes. Yes. It'll be called the Y Men. Should we get into it? Should we get into it? Yeah. I would love Y Men. I would love to Rebecca as this. I would love to. Let's get to it. Listen, I've been married since 2009, so it's been a while for me, so I just love to, I was married in 2008, got divorced and what year is it? 25. I got divorced in 22. I left him in 2022. The divorce took much longer, but yeah. Oh, that's sweet. Yeah. Let's talk about it. What do we, what do we wanna know? Listen, I. So full disclosure, I feel like you, if you're okay with this, one of the things that I thought was interesting was just like, you'd be like, oh, can you believe the shit I'm going through? When you started online dating and it was horrific and I was like, oh my God. Having to wade through the trash pile online dating burnout is something that we had never considered before talking to Morgan and then yeah, I don't even know how to start this. So let's just give some backstory. Right? Yeah. I met my ex-husband when I was 18 years old, worked at a sprint call center together. So I'm from across the room and I was like, that's the one, an idiot married him. Three years later when I was 21, he went to war. He cheated. He did all the things. I stayed, I was a fool. Okay. We had two kids. I have not dated anyone since I was 18 years old. Let's talk about what was still live when I was 18. MySpace was still live baby. It was still live and active. Your frontal lobe wasn't even fully developed. Yeah. I don't even know how, like when I talk about this, I get tingly because I'm like, I just wanna tell all the 18 to 20 ones we snap the snap phones. There was no, there was no nothing. It was just phone. It's a flip phone. Who says snap? Phone day? Says snap phone. Okay. Phone What? Flip phone. I just wanna be clear. I didn't have a snap phone or a flip phone. I had a sidekick. Ooh. So anybody in the chat who's there, I, we flip it up and it twists. It was a very fancy at the time. Anyway, I met this man. Dated him for all of a week and was like, mom, I'm gonna marry this man. He's so fine. I love him so much. Married his ass when I was 21. You did not dated from 21 to 32, not dated. So I leave this man and I'm like, now it's time. We're gonna get back out there. Mind you, when women leave, it takes a long while. So when, by the time I left, I was ready to date. We're being honest, I had been clocked out for Yeah. Some significant period of time. So I'm like, I good to go. When you get on Bumble and Tinder and, I don't even know what the other ones are called. There's Facebook dating. What? There's there's Facebook dating that's for Republicans. Someone's aunt. Someone's aunt, and someone's uncle found their love there. One, I, there's one, I don't know if someone else who's watching them, but there's one that starts with an H that I was on, I can't remember Hinge. Sorry. Oh, hinge Coffee. Meet Bagel. Yeah. So all the things, right? I'm doing all of them at once. Mm-hmm. So fucking exhausting. You gotta keep up with chats from here, there, everywhere. And it's I'm not that cute. I know I'm cute. Oh, you are? I'm there. Listen, I know that I'm very, I'm cute, but like for this amount of attention, it's like y'all are just like clicking everywhere. And so you respond to the ones that you're interested in just based off of profile and photo, and you gotta wait for them to respond. You're like, why didn't they respond? You're like questioning your, like you clicked on me most. Yeah. If you have anxiety, it's even worse because then you're like, what does that mean? Yeah. You're like spiraling. Like, why am I not good enough for you to at least like text me back? You're like, this guy's not even hot. You're not on Bumble. I don't know if it's that way now, but on Bumble previously, the women had to reach out first. Mm-hmm. So you are doing the outreach and you have to wait for them to reach back. Yeah. Telling a woman self esteem, because the banner just like click, click clicking, giving thumbs up to everyone just to see what they get, and then you message the one that you're interested in and they never message you back and you're just like. Am I ugly? Why are you here men? Fuck microwaved fruit. I'm just gonna say that men fuck microwave fruit. Like the fact that they have the balls not to respond. I know that now insane to me. I know that now. Insane. But then it was totally different because I was used to meeting men out in the wild. Mm-hmm. Where they look at you, it's so wild. And they're like, I'm up to you. And they're like, oh my God. you're so pretty. what? And in this scenario I was like, I'm a, I'm a troll. I'm a troll doll. That's why they're not communicating with me. And I had to learn. It is so easy to get burnt out on online dating because these men. To a detective too, by the way. You turned into a detective, which is like an like an FBI level agent detective, like you were pouring over is this house occupied by, look at this, look at this picture. And then I saw this picture on the, in, on the inch of webs and you were, I 100% found a man that, like I, we had been going back and forth via chat for three days. I dunno, something felt off about the timing of his communication. So I screenshot like his main picture into the Google search, found him on Facebook. The man had a whole family, had a whole fucking family. And it's like, why are, why are we doing? And it's I don't wanna do that anymore. Why are we doing that? You're disgusting. My God. And I never, and this is I 100, burnout, 100% burnt out online dating because it's not for me. Because the way that, like my brain is set up, I'm gonna find out about you. I'm a classic Virgo. You cannot lie to my face and think, of course, she's a Virgo. No. Yeah, the FBI agent skills. I know your name, I know your mother's name. I know your, I'll pay for some detective work too. Like you want me to get a background check? Maybe $15. Got it. Boom. What's the other thing? And again, I haven't been out there for a while, but the sa I would just be anxious, will I get murdered? Like safety aspect of it. Yeah. Yeah. That would make me really nervous a lot. Which is interesting though, because we really didn't care about the safety aspect when we were meeting men out in the bars and we were like, oh, it's a frontal lobe, Morgan. It was not formal. You wanna go home? Sure. No. You're making making ramen tonight? Yeah. I'd love to. Yes. Ram Cup noodle. Yes. Let's do it. Like we didn't, let's throw some frozen veggies in there. Great. You're yeah. You're special. Yeah. We didn't give a shit, but no, I, I do worry about getting murdered often. Mm-hmm. Often, which is again, another reason to just not. But dating burnout is, is fucking real. Also, if you want to just steer yourself away from dating online, go on Reddit and just look up Bumble. All of the horror stories will just fold into you. My God. And you'll realize that it's just, it's, it's a landmine out there and there's no point in joining into what's happening. I, I tried to online date and I, like you hadn't dated in like a decade. And I was in my thirties and this was actually like pretty recently, like within the last few years. And I somehow landed on OkCupid and I love that one. I signed up, okay. I wrote this killer bio. I wrote a killer bio. Rebecca helped me with it. And it was hilarious though. 'cause after Rebecca read it, she was like, you wrote this for women. She's you wanna date women? I'm Pan. So she's yeah. She was like, you really wrote, wrote this for women? And I'm like, yeah, whoever, So I do it, and then they're like, Ooh, sorry, this phone number already had an account. And I was like, I've never had an account. And I literally had to email them kind of like pleading oh no, please, can I please go online dating? And then I was like, what the fuck am I doing? And it was basically just Nope, you can't, because someone used my number or someone who, when they had my number once used it. And so I just was rejected. And I was like, that's it. I'm done. That's it. Yeah. I really, I really, when I wanna date again, I don't know what the fuck I'm gonna do because I can go outside my house. And I'm not interested in getting burnt out again. Yeah. No. This is why. But so that's why I'm just like, I would just get another dog. I think I, I don't, it's Rebecca, you, you remember my like. End of relationship burnout. Crap. Yeah. I voice noted that shit for you where I was like, motherfucker, open your phone. What's going on? Like I sent it to Rebecca and she was like, bitch, he's lying. He is lying. Lying Marina. We're fine. We're trying not to get murdered while online dating. Yeah, that's the other thing. The, the audacity of the men out there, from what I've heard, the lying and the sneakiness is just, yeah, it's audacity. Given like the caliber in comparison and I don't wanna be rude. Be rude. It's fine. They're trash. It's okay. Hey words, but like me versus you, like the way that you're lying right now says that like you're set up above me. No, no, baby. Have you considered outside the country? Have you considered British or French? Have you considered sugar daddy? Oh, that I, that I'm more considering that I'm more on that wavelength, that feels more my, I wanna be able to like, have the fruits and benefits. Mm-hmm. I don't wanna waste my time with the idea that we could be in love and have a life, Because why would we do that to us? I don't wanna waste my time on, on love, on Love. What is, I think that's the name of the podcast. Don't wanna Waste my time on love. Obviously a lover girl. I want it, but I'm also aware that it's very, for me, yeah. Because I, I just hate the way other people do it. Love. yeah. Oh, I just hate the way other people do. Go on. I hate the way other people love. Okay. Not please elaborate. I love, like all of my friends, I love the way that they love, like Rebecca, she'll check up on me occasionally and check out if leave me alone, I'll be bothered. She will google fu any motherfucker. You need her to Google Fu and she is if I tell her like a motherfucker's messing with me, she'd be like, riding that Dawn, we're ready to, she's I hope he's ready to get like all these spam emails. Like she's let me sign him up. Very up. Very much that, but I, I don't feel that in like romantic relationships. I'm just like, you're not, you're not for me the way that I am for you. Because I like, I'm very much a lover girl. Like I am like, oh, I did that and that's very aggressive. Maybe that's my prop. Have you considered someone 20 years older? Yes. This is therapy. I, I, okay. Relax, relax. No, I'm serious. I'm, I'm serious. 20 years older. They have their kids. My dad just married a woman that's 20 years younger. I get it. I have a infant. Sibling. It's fine. No, I have not considered that recently, but maybe I will. Maybe I will. They're indoor dogs. They're indoor. They're no longer wolves. They become indoor dogs. And you hear that, Rob? It's much indoor dogs. Wow. Mm-hmm. He goes to the dentist and everything. Indoor dog. Was it, do we, should we hear from them? The indoor dog is streaming from the other room. God, he knows how to use a computer. That's amazing. Wow. God, he's did you do that? He's so well equipped. That's amazing. Amazing. I'm just saying. Good job, Rebecca. Where do we, good job. Where do we find the indoor dogs? For the ones who are burnt out on the young dogs. The pups. The pups work. Puppies. The pups. Work. Work. AA meetings or work? She doesn't work. She just quit her job. But Rebecca, no, I know. Are you not listening? I'm literally unemployed. No, I know. I know. Sorry. A hospital. You could find a nice old doctor. A nice little doctor. Insurance. What the fuck I'm gonna do in a hospital? Yeah. It's just go walk around. Just go walk around, bill. Scope them out. Yeah, so I'm never gonna find this. no one goes to bars anymore. You're who goes to bars? Everyone's hangovers at this age. That's what I mean, like everyone's had hangovers at this age. So like where do you go? Where are they? Where do you go? I'm at home. I, why are they not coming to me? Like DoorDash is, they're not at DoorDash. DoorDash, but for dating for men and you can order. That's dangerous. That's an escort though. Wait, I think, no. Wait, hold on. I think that's Grindr. I think they think that's Grindr. I think it's Grinder. What? I'm pretty sure that's Grindr grindr's for gaming. No, I know, but like they just let you know that a man is near right. So no, but I'm saying I want a delivery of men. Oh, okay. Yes. see. But then they can't come to your home because that will get murder thing. I know. Yeah. The mur, the murdery part of it is how do, maybe if they have to wear a blindfold and then like a car takes them to you. And you just see, you ask a couple of questions and then you dismiss. Yeah, that's very involved. And then you dismiss. I like how you're like already dismissing. You're like, you ask a couple questions and then you just dismiss. I gotta check, check the people off real quick, real quick. This is very involved, but there's potential elder millennials try bars. How do we get them? Just like to a singular location. It doesn't have to be your house. You pick a location. She's talking about Man Island. Remember Rebecca? What is this? Oh, oh man. All of my ideas are taken. All my ideas. No man island. No man Island is a subset of white people island. So that's the one where like all men, we just put all men on an island. All men, like Trash Island in New York, you just put all the men on there and in order to come back Island is, yeah, that sounds beautiful. Okay. Go. Go on. Yeah. In order to come back, they have to prove that they're not assholes. that's the only way they get off. Like man island. So it sounds taxy, but go on. I know. no, that that's all. It came ups all. Yeah, that's it. That's as far as, okay, so potentially we, we bring said verified men back. Rob. Rob says, that's how America started. God damnit Naomi. That wrong. There's no way to do any of this. Y'all we're fun. What about brunch? Brunch, brunch. Golf. Golf. Have you ever been to a brunch in a girls group and any sort of man around gaze? A gaze. The gaze, I know it's like they're. Either the gays, the gays, or men that are already fucking erect. We need more men who like to brunch. Like, why are you here doing, what's the dog park? Dog park? I find that men, men alone, who own dogs, just men, have ept, unruly dogs. This was my ex men who are partnered and have dogs. Dogs are well behaved. They're beautiful. They do, they're lovely. Widow widowers support group. Yes. I think you're, that is, that's it. That's it. Yeah. Just pretend your ex-husband's dead. They wanna be wiped up and there's because, but you'll never be as good. And I will, in my mind, I'm in anxious in my mind. I'm like, yeah, but she's dead. She's gone. I know she's gone, but I'll never be. I. But I do. You're onto something there though. I'm just so rich and I don't have a wife to spend money on. I don't know what to do. You're like, oh, me either. Oh, I will help you. And my wife was so rich and now I have all her money. My tires widow are bald. I don't know why this man sounds like an old lady, but he does widow. Yeah. Widower support group. So anything or there's gotta be like a, like a any, oh wait. So at your kids' school, are there dads to bring their kids? Can you suss out maybe like suss out there, start talking to, to some of the moms. Like even lightly talk into Marina and chat had a good, you literally went to an Okay. Oh, go ahead. No, no, no. I wanna hear this. Oh, marina said have you tried the meetup app? So I tried that. 'cause it's not really for dating. But it's just called Meetup. And I tried that when I first moved to LA 10 years ago because I was like wanting to find friends. Yeah. So you can search for like things you enjoy, like if you enjoy going money for hikes, if you enjoy, my thing was like, I looked for like gamers. So I looked for, I joined this like women's board game group that met like once a week. That was really cool. And you can do that and like through that, just meet more people. Yeah. Downloading it now. Nice widowers in my area. Here's the thing though, I live in hot widows in my area now. Now I live in like a, a mid-size Midwestern town, so like 180,000 people, Missouri. Oh, Missouri. Real slim baby. You can find your, I'm telling you, especially for, for people who want something that, someone that looks like me, my ex is long distance. He is from Baton Rouge. it's just, ha it's so hard. And that's why I'm just like, I think I'm burnt out on the pro because I'm gonna go off on this tangent. Yeah, please. In a small town that is largely white, you're a black girl, you will have guys that like click on you because they think they're interested in black girls or they're like izing in some way, shape, or form or I am full figured, I don't know what you wanna call it, plus size, whatever. And you have people that'll just fit that mold, that think they want to try it. Yeah. And then most of them will tap out Conversation. And that's usually like they were just using the app for comfort or entertainment or whatever they will go. But there's the few that like get beyond that bar to where like you're having an in-depth conversation to some degree and you're like, I wanna go on a date. And either you meet them or they decide if they don't want to. And it's a real like self-esteem killer. Yeah. Because it's like I was interested and I thought that I was into that, but it's no I wasn't, I actually wasn't your type. You thought that you wanted to, it's like I wanted to try you on for size to some degree and it just like sucks. Yeah. And you just get like tired of doing that. It's different in bigger cities. And that's actually how I met my was I was in New Orleans for a girls trip. I happened to, my location was on, so I was matching with all of these men in New Orleans, and I matched with him and that's how we came to be. But like I've never found here that it's worked out and yeah, I know that I'm like burnt out on the idea of dating in small town. Yeah. It just feels no, no one is truly interested in okay, hear me out a matchmaker. it's not that I'm not opposed to it, it's not something I've ever tried. I don't know. Yeah. Like I wouldn't even know like where to find a match. New New York City. Is it for like big cities and like the Jewish community has a ton of matchmakers? Yes. Yeah. Like I, I, I'm just like, I, I wouldn't even know where to start. I assume there's a fee for that as like a significant fee. Sure. Yeah, sure. But, but, but they know they're rich men and they can set you up with the Richmond. I'm still a lover girl. I don't know. Lie, despite, like all of my disdain burnout from, I am still a lover girl that just wants to, that's me. an old, an older guy. They grew up in different times. They'll still bring you flowers. They still have nice manners. They're 80. They're 80. Okay. You're going above and beyond where I'm willing, but yes, I, I see where you're tracking and I, I can be on that. I can be on that wavelength. Yes. Mm-hmm. Hundred percent. Or they have kids my age. Yeah. I'm just gonna shake that off. Rebecca, listen, some of us have stepdaughters who are five years younger than us. It's fine, it's fine. Some of us are grandmothers, some of us are grandmothers already. Wait, are, wait, are you, do I not know that? Don't tell. Wait. Okay. We'll talk about this offline. It's fine. Rob had a daughter. Rob was teen mom. He had a daughter, we're similar in age by five years. And then she had two kids. So he's grandpa. My, my stepmom's 43. Aw. I'm 35. Yeah, I'm 36. This year we met like 17. If it makes that doesn't make it any better. You know what? Nevermind. Anyone in chat have any suggestions for a no? A man for Morgan? No. Look at her. Look at how good she is. She's Joe Fucking smart. She's smart as fuck. Weight's not important. gorgeous. Great unemployed. Two kids. We're selling ourselves tonight. Great. Taste and wine. Decent. Anything 1399 and up will do. Okay. Yeah. I I genuinely, and here's the other thing. You're a whole different person now than you were when you started dating your ex. Like you're a completely, a life, you're a lifetime apart from who you were back then. I, I would argue. So I think this is the thing about what keep trying to go back to burnout. I would argue that when I met my ex, I was at the, the best that I could have been. I, so I left my ex-husband at, I knew I wanted out. I had thought about it, it was calculated. I hate to say that, but like, when you have two kids, like you have to be Yeah, I knew that I was ready to go. Here's why I like mapped it when I, I spent nine months solo, but I also knew that I was ready to date. I knew that I was ready to get back in there. I was, I had been, I physically fit, I was in the gym. I, I, I had all of my shit to get, I fought house, like I was so good. I was making the most money I'd ever made as well. I was working for I was at the top of my game. And I like found myself just decline in a relationship. Like I just, I give so much and love that everything else around it dissipates. Oh, to some degree. And I think that that was the problem in like my marriage. And I think that that is where the burnout in relationships comes from me, is that I just, I pour, pour, pour poor. So you need more boundaries and relationships. 100%. I pour until I have nothing with the expectation that person on the other side is going to pour back. Yeah. And they don't, don't, yeah. And then you're like, okay, well I'm, I'm burnt out of pouring. yeah, you're empty. duh. that's the way that it works if no one else is pouring into you. I'm just like, I've seen that so many times for myself that I, it's gonna take me a long time of figuring that part out. Yeah. See, and what, and I'm not being funny, like what you were just describing. It's oh yeah, that's what we do. that's what best friends do. that's I get that reciprocal point and I'm, then I'm like, then she needs a wife because it's you're not gonna find that with, with men. You're Morgan, you wanna get married? Maybe should we just get married? Me and you? Listen, I have li I, me and my brother went, out eat the other day. I'll take it to mine. And I was just like, I, I am bi. I'll say this, I find myself sexually attracted to women, but I don't find myself romantically attracted to women. So I find it like, wanna do some things. Women. Yes. You wanna like partnership build a life, typically women. Yeah. but I was like. I wouldn't mind at this point, like the fact that men just continue to fail in the areas that like mm-hmm. I want partnership to be, I'd love to just create a partnership with a woman and both of us just have like fun. Mm-hmm. We just have fun and other places, other people, but like our main partnership is. Mm-hmm. It feels like it's a win-win for everyone. To me personally, yes. From what I've seen, it's just like we get each other, we're both like, especially like me and the other women, we both have children, like we're just putting into the household in the same way. Then like you don't feel drained. You share a village. Yeah. You're just creating a village. Like it always comes down to that. Every episode we do. Men. that's what Jamie and I talk about, like if Rob goes, then she comes live with that. that's what I mean, just Your best friend, right? I think you would have to come here though. No, sorry. And maybe Jamie's but my niece and nephew. No, it's fine. We'll figure it out. Everyone's gonna figure it out. No, it's fine. Compromise. That's what relationships are about, mpromise. It's true. Yeah. I don't know. I, huh? Yeah. Rebecca doesn't think relationships are about compromise. She doesn't understand. That said compromise. Can't do that. Can't do that co. That's too much. Is there, are you getting, and are you getting anything out? is there a part of you that enjoys the singleness? is there a relief in not having to be with someone? And I don't mean that mean, I just mean that is there, you only get to focus on you. I feel, I do feel like I have more quiet moments. I think when you're partnered, especially with children, you work, you have to work, hours are dedicated to kids, and then the after kids hours, you feel guilty to some degree that you haven't poured into your partner at all. So you give those hours to them, it's like nothing left for you. And so I do find solace and peace and the kids go to bed, and that's just me. Yeah. And I'm not, and I've made it very, I have made a commitment to not, I'm not joining apps. I'm not dating, I'm not doing anything for at least six to nine months. So I'm not texting anyone. I'm not, I'm not consumed in anyone, but what I wanna do in those hours. Yeah. And if that's pouring into my social media because I wanna grow that, or it's pouring into my side hustle, I can do that. Or if I just wanna go the fuck to sleep, I. I can do that. So I do find peace and there's a little very small subsect of my life that used to go to someone else. I get that. For me, you're filling yourself back up. Yeah. That's really important. I would, I, and I would still like more, and I'll have to figure out how to create that more. But for right now, this little bit does feel like something really and needed. Yeah. Necessary for you. Yeah. Any of it. So that part's nice. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. It gets, it's, it's lonely too. Yeah. Oh yeah. But it's, but there's something nice, there's something nice about being lonely right now. there's something nice about being lonely. Right now. I'm sure it will, it will get heavy at some point. But right now, if there's something nice about feeling low, is it 'cause of the possibility of what's to come? Is that the nice part? Maybe I, I don't even think I'm like considering what's to come right now. I think I'm just like, it feels nice for the first time to not want comfort from anyone but myself. Oh wow. Okay. Like usually when I'm lonely and like turning to someone very specific, like knowing your child, you're lonely. Like you can be your parents like you're best friend, And I don't, in this season, I'm not doing that. Like when I'm lonely, I'm just like, I just sit and it's all I just don't want to fill the space and there's something like comforting about that. I'm not, I'm not turning to anyone. I think it's just the whole, like being comfortable with yourself and being, I know this sounds super fucking cheesy, but like being fluffy and Yeah. Yeah. Being able to sit with yourself and being able to be alone and like I had never been able to do that before. Yeah. I think that's really important. Always been uncomfortable for me and I, I fear, which is maybe why I've held on relationships for so long. Yeah. I would let myself get to burnout relationships because. The fear of, I like the comfort of having someone and I fear being by myself. Whereas now it almost feels really easy to just cut some shit off because I'm like, I actually feel okay right now. I, I'm good. I think this is good. I literally think you're healing, I think you're just healing yourself. Yeah. And that's great. I was like, I was gonna say, and you don't have to answer, and I don't mean this the way it sounds, but are you in therapy? not at the moment. I had been on a sort of two year stint of therapy. I cut my therapy off when I injured my knee that I significantly injured my knee. I had a full knee reconstruction and I financially swap, pt, PT for therapy for regular therapy, mental therapy versus physical therapy. Pricewise, I had to pick one or the other. Physical therapy, was more important at the time. Yeah. and I had not yet switched back, but, the work that we did prior to surgery encompassed everything that was happening in my life at the time, which excluded this partnership with, now X. Yeah. And that work has carried me through. Rebecca knows we broke up and got back together. Yeah. Has carried me through the US getting back together and then breaking up again. I will go back when. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I was just thinking I feel like this is definitely something that like, I know I've, I've personally worked on like with my therapist and, and also yeah, just leaning. On your village, leaning on your besties, leaning on your friends, leaning on old coworkers, and talking about it. Amazing. Like how you find the support in old coworkers. Mm-hmm. I have the majority of my, like really close friends now have all come from my relationships and toxic workplaces. Like before Rebecca, same Erica, Shanita, Rachel I have, and like Girl Gang. Mm-hmm. That all came from like toxic workplaces and you just figure out how to support each other and then you just carry that on through everything else that happens. Yeah. In your life. So like finding, finding your people through, once you figure out that you are in like potential burnout space, finding your people. That are like, tangential to that is really important. Yeah, no, that's, that's super true. I, I'm sorry you're going through this, but I, I am genuinely so excited for you. I am so excited to see what's gonna happen next. I'm so excited to see what you're doing. Like I said, you're one of the smartest, most capable, most talented people I know, and I am. I can't wait. it's gonna be amazing whatever you decide to do. Yeah. I don't know. I, I appreciate that. I think it's hard, it's almost hard to hear, that people are excited about what you could do or what's possible, because honestly, like sometimes I take leaps and I'm not really sure about what's next. I a hundred percent did this without being sure of what was next or what I could do or what I wanted to do. I saw. Yeah, go. I was just gonna say but what, what you are sure of is that like you were in a shitty situation that was burning you out, that was killing you, and that could be both work and relationship. yeah. And you got outta that and that, that's, yeah. Amazing. I know that it's, it's very scary, like to not know what's next, and that's still, of course, that's gonna be there. And you're gonna be scared and you're gonna be anxious, but you're still better for it because you got yourself away from that and out of that. Yeah. It's weird. I like, I quit everything all at once. I feel like I quit everything that like, wasn't serving me one time. if I quit a relationship, I quit a job, I quit. most habits that weren't serving me, I. While that has brought to some degree, some distress, and I think that that's normal. you're, you're breaking away from things that you're used to. Yeah. It's going distress. It's also caused like a shit ton of, so I'm excited about what's next. I'm also like fucking terrified. Mm-hmm. Maybe this shit doesn't work out. Maybe I can't mortgage in two months, but, I'm confident that me and God will work it out and it'll be fine. Somehow, some way it's better. Whatever happens. It's better than where I was at. Yeah. Yeah. That's enough for you're, you're working for you. You're not working for somebody else who doesn't deserve your work. You're working for you. Yeah. And I've done that before. that's how I started. Yeah. In the work from home space was working for myself. And that's how I like proved myself to get into the tech startup space. So I feel like just like going back to my roots to some degree. Yeah. It'll be all right. It'll be all. I'm, I'm trying to say that in a confident way. It'll be all right. I'm confident it's gonna be okay, but let's get your brother on here. Can we call your brother really quick? Have him tell you it's gonna be okay. And he would be like, that's what you need. You already know 100. He would like you. You know what it is. I got you. Regardless, you're gonna be fine. Yeah. I got, I got my people in my corner and I'm one of those people in my corner is Rebecca. I'm super grateful for that. The journey of Burnout and hardship and all of the shitty stuff that happened in my career. Like I've come out on the other side with some really phenomenal people that I get to call friends for the rest of my life. That part like makes it feel really worth it. Like the, I can't tell you that, I'm sure dam like the things that me and Rebecca have, have talked through and worked out on a late night when I'm just like, I've got no one else right now. I need you. And having those sorts of people in your corner, like that's what comes from some of these like hard moments. I'm not saying what should stay in hard moments to gain those friendships, but that's what comes out of it. Like you're, yeah, you're bonded for life and that part's pretty cool. Agree. Yeah, trauma bonded, but it's, it's fine. It's fine. It's fine. Bonded and best way to be. Best way to be. Listen, I feel like the majority of I would argue that the majority of like super close relationships are trauma bonded. Yeah. We do go to war. I would hard to find, hard to find a relationship in my life that has been like, oh, we just met and it was good. I can't really think of me. Those don't last. Yeah. No, no, I, no, we just met and it was fine. Nope. Nothing's ever fun. Do I still have No, all of the ones that have stood like the test of time have been like, no, we went through some shit. Yeah. That sucks to say, but that's the reality of like good relationships are built on you unfortunately transforms. Yeah, you're forged in hellfire and misogyny. The patriarchy. Oh, that's horrible. And the way that you just put it, sorry. Makes me cringe for everyone involved. But I, I do think that's why women tend to like group up together like that because stop like that. Yeah. We have to, it just makes sense. No one else. Mm-hmm. It survive. It's a survival instinct, I think, to just, and we all just see each other looking like this, about to lose our shit. We can see it not in our eyes. I think, think, have y'all listen when you're in like a Zoom. I've worked remotely for 10 years, but when you're in like a Zoom call with a bunch of women, you can just see it on their faces. When everyone is just the cameras go, the cameras start going off. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Everybody's thinking what I'm thinking. Yep. Bitch are on it. They're all on. My friend messaged me on a, the other day it was just all caps, FACE face, and I was like, oh, shit on, because I forgot myself. But shit, place, face. That is so fu Yeah, no, it's so real. Like you can just, you can point it out with the women in the room and when the cameras start going off, you're like, Ooh, some shit is popping off right now. It's literally just like, just like looking off and just typing Yeah. Yeah. they're over there. Yeah. Yeah. They're like slacking their friends. I love, I love those moments, honestly. Unless you are on the receiving end of it. Have you ever been on the receiving end of it? No. 'cause my meetings are seven minutes. We're in, we're out. There's no lingering. So you, I've been like, I. The voice of the company before, Where I'm, oh yeah. Ugh. I am, posting the all hands. I'm delivering a message and I haven't really, it's not my message, but I'm delivering the message, but I'm always watching the faces and you see the like people and you're like, it's not, I knew it wasn't gonna land. I told y'all it wasn't gonna land. Mm-hmm. And it, you just see it. That's a different feeling where you're like, it's going badly. But that's also like you're just the messenger, And you're like, the me I be, yeah. but they literally shoot the messenger. There's a whole saying about that. They hate the messenger and being, being the messenger, and you have to deliver what you have to deliver. And sometimes that means you're in a zoom and you're witnessing people being mad about what you're delivering and they're talking about it and you're like. I knew this was gonna happen, but I can't smoke food. So Oh, that's a different feeling. That's a different feeling. I don't think I've ever had that. I, that would, that would, that would destroy my, that my anxiety would be at a thousand. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I, it's hard to keep on, you just have to block everything. You have to block everyth, no, you have to because it won't stop, but, oh my God, I didn't think about that, Morgan. That's terrible. Yeah, no, thank you. It's always like a good one in the room that knows that you're just, you're delivering the message at a, like I said, you privately girl, you're okay. You're okay. Just keep going. Yeah. And like those people, they, they save you in those long times. Yeah. It, it sucks. I like it. I especially like it because I have played the long game and all the connections I've made at the terrible companies I've been at, I've just kept, and now we have hired two of them, specifically from my team and I sold them from their companies and then, stole another one from another company for a different team. But it's just like nice. You just hold onto 'em until it's time to call due and then you just bring them in. Mm-hmm. You have like my kids and collecting damn working on cards, yep. You got a good one. You hold on, take them with you somewhere. yes. And when they decide it's fine for, yeah. I try to, I try to pull people with me only if I know it's a good place to be though. Now I've learned that I only pull people with me if I know. It's a solid place to be because I've pulled people with me in places that were off shift. Yeah, yeah. Which, which also sucks. damn, I didn't even pull you into the shift though. But here we're, yeah, but it's not, and no, it's not you. And you hope with the people there that things would turn around. Sometimes it just doesn't. Yeah. But it, it, yeah. Sometimes the leadership, it's always the leadership. It's always leadership. When we were talking at the very beginning about like management and management training and leadership training, I was gonna say I know it wouldn't solve all of the problems, but I think even just like that being mandatory at all companies would help a lot. But it, it would have to be legitimate. It's not just like going through the motions and Like you said, sometimes oh, we have a program you can choose to go off and do it on your own. that's not gonna fucking work. First of all, people aren't gonna do that. Yeah, but they're, or they're gonna do it and like they're gonna phone it in. Oh, I did it. I, the problem is, but they're at the top though. The prob, that's the problem. They're at the top and no one's gonna make 'em do it. That's just why they make the middle managers do it. Like the middle managers. That's what I'm saying. Managers like the top needs to do it, but they won't 'cause they don't have to. Who's going to make them? It's really, it is incredibly hard to enforce the top to do it, because they always have a reason why they They always have a higher priority, a higher strategy. there's something else I read a book that keeps them from doing this training that you are making. People need to be a lot more fucking humble. I tell you. That's the, and I, I think. I would love that to be a part of the hiring process. Like how humble is this person? Yeah. How much do they know that they're replaceable? That's incredibly important. Yeah. Leadership is no, nobody can touch me. So that's, I can fucking fire you and I'll find another Joe tomorrow. like that's incredibly important for leaders to know. And the ones who don't know it, don't ever hire them because if they feel like they're expendable, they're not going to join you in the mission of serving people. If that's what you want to do. And if your company is not about the mission of serving people, then this doesn't even apply. But if you would like for that to be a part of your mission, Rebecca goes, no, you need to hire people who have, you need to hire people who have a fucking ego that says, I'm not that great. That's what. I was gonna say, all the people at the top who places I've worked, it has not been about serving people. It's been about hoovering up as much money as possible. Yeah. It's about money, making money, patriarchy and consumerism. and the problem is you wanna start your own company, but if it is about serving people, you can't show a profit, then you can't get investors. And it's just, It's it, it's, it's gonna be, it has to, I'm just saying that's the problem is that people are more willing to bet on evil 'cause it's profitable. Mm-hmm. this is depressing. Yeah, this is, I'm sorry. That's where we landed. We just lived at a, this is a good time to end, I guess now that we're all, sorry. Oh, I love it. It's literally just the reality of life. Yeah. I think it's, we can, yeah, we can end, I'll say we. I found in my, how old am I? 35? Like 20 years of working. That's weird. Anyway, I don't know that like burnout is avoidable. I think it's just if you live in America and you wanna make a living, like not be broke and scrounging, like burnout is just a part of your day to day. It's just a part of the way that you live and the way that you operate and trying to skirt around it is almost more burnout inducing than just accepting it. Like trying to avoid being burnt out probably is going to lead you to more burnout. So I found like taking breaks potentially like rejoining status quo, like mm-hmm. What just inevitably needs to happen in all areas of your life almost. That includes work dating. We've, we've attempted to find a solution to dating even, and it's just not there. you're gonna get fucking tired. You're gonna get tired of this shit because there's no easy entertaining of it, and that sucks. There's no thanks for joining us, Morgan. Yeah, thanks. So thanks so much. This is, I figured I'd wrap it up on that. No, you're a hundred percent correct to me. Do we wanna wrap it up on something positive? Do we have We don't have to. No. What's a positive question that we've got? Burnout puts the blame on us. Exploitation gives the blame back to the people really at fault. We refuse to be complicit in our own exploitation. Own exploitation. That's what it was. That's what you're doing too. You're refusing to be complicit in your own exploitation and you are leaving that we refuse to be complicit in our own exploitation. Said the two per people were looking, two people who what I just for the two people who are employed. But then I remembered you weren't, but you're looking for a job. And I'm employed, so like I am a little complicit. 'cause I have to, have insurance. I'm gonna be, we gotta fire her from the podcast. She's complicit. So we gotta complicit we outta here. She is. Done. It'll be Morgan and Jamie from now on. I love you all for giving me, some dating ideas for when I'm ready. Yeah, I'm fine rush. No rush, dude. Enjoy it a night. Oh, I know where you need to go if anyone comes to town. So like Iron Maiden, any of the old heads, like any, any of those old concerts, that's where the cool old dudes are most likely with money. That's where they're gonna be. Sorry, where did you meet your old, where'd you meet your old man at work? I, he, yeah, I ran it. Yeah. Yeah. But that's where they go is they go to those concerts. They're not going back to an office, so that'll matter. Also a concert. Yes. They're at those concerts. So all the iron maidens, all like the old school guys who come around and do those tours, that's where they're gonna be at. Or go to concerts that you like. They're not gonna be there. I am to the concert by my myself. They're not gonna be there at all. This is gonna be all women. I'm very excited about it. I'm going to a concert by myself for the first time ever. Yay. On, June 10th, I think the 10th. Nice. Yeah, we're under 30 days. June 10th. Look up Jesse Reyes if you don't know who she is. Jessica. I am, yeah. so Jessie, J-E-S-S-I-E. And then Reyes with a Z at the end. She's phenomenal. she happens to write really great breakup music. Nice says to be in the audience, just like screaming and crying at the top of my lungs by myself. Fuck. Yeah. I hope you have such a good time. Never been to a concert by myself, so I'm like, I did a three day festival by myself and I had never done it. Oh my God. And I was So did you love it? Terrified. And then I was like, I'm so glad I did it. I'm so glad I did it. You did? Okay. Yes, because I, I, I love doing other things. Take yourself out. I'll go to movies. I'll go out to eat. Yeah. like I'll do all the other things by myself, but I'm like, oh, it's like me in a crowd. I don't, but I'm excited. I, I think it's gonna be fun. You'll make so many friends just with people around you too, yeah, seriously. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go and enjoy myself and use it for my, TikTok and Instagram content. You get to pick out a concert outfit. Oh, that's gonna be so exciting. I'm, I've already started thinking about it, but I'm on like a weight loss journey, so I'm like, I need to wait two weeks out because I, some of the stuff that I, I'm already starting to lose weight. Some of the stuff that I wanted to wear doesn't fit already. That's great. But I think I'm gonna try to match her style a little bit. Like comfortable boots, longer socks. I think I'm gonna do like a tennis skirt style. Mm-hmm. Yes. And then a crop top kind of jersey. She's like tomboy, girly, which is very much my style, which is great. Just because I think I'm gonna try to, I'm gonna try to mimic, get one of those like long line like sports bras that you can just wear as a crop top. Ooh. Because they look really fucking cute. You can get 'em at Old Navy. Ooh, okay. This is a good idea. Built in support. You don't have to wear a real bra, but you're comfortable and you look like super cute 'cause it looks like a little crop. That would look really cute with a tennis skirt. We also do fashion advice. Okay. We. I'm gonna, when we do it, I'm gonna send picture. Yeah, please. Maybe I'll meet a girl. Honestly, like the other day, not the other day, it was like a few months ago, we were driving home and Emily was like, mom, are you bi? And I was like, I never even consider it 'cause I married your dad when I was 23. But she was like, if dad dies, would you date a woman? I was like, woman, you wouldn't date anybody way. You wouldn't date. You're right. I would, I wouldn't. You would just be like, Jamie, come live here. Jamie. Like a companionship partnership. Yeah. A white, not necessarily like I would wanna watch. I would honestly, I would like, I would want, do you know how much shit we would get done if we had wives? Oh my God. So much. So much. You know how long it took me to fold three loads of laundry by myself. You know how quickly I can knock that out with some girl talk and put something on the TV and we just body doubling, go. Yes. I, I need that in my life. And that's why I'm like, maybe I'm just not meant for men. Double the products. Double the makeup. Double the clothes. double the help. Double the wavelength. You're not gonna let any beef, your makeup. Get outta here, Rebecca. You won't share your makeup. Jamie, I show up trying to be not a terrible person to you. Show up. Not as my authentic self. Just let me have this, you have to find someone who doesn't do the, you gotta find your right partner. they don't do makeup. I don't really, I don't really do makeup much. see, perfect. We're perfect there. You guys, y'all are a match made and have match made. It's gonna work out perfectly when the time comes. Yeah. Shot. Oh my God. We are planning Rob's demise though. You Yeah. You can't, you don't need someone to cook. I'm a great, I'm a great cook. Yes, please. Yes. Oh my God, I make food. You wouldn't, no one would ever ask you again. What's for dinner? No one. Oh, whatever. You don't need to ask me. It's gonna be beautiful. I'm gonna plate it lovely. You're gonna feel like you're in a gourmet restaurant and it's gonna be delicious. I love that. You would never run out of things. No one would ever not tell you that they're out of toothpaste until it's too late. There'd be no empty rolls of toilet paper. None. Or the ones that are just sitting on the empty roll or the milk that has like this much left in it that's just put back in the fridge. Little enough to jiggle. Yeah. Oh, I hate that. Yeah. The drop never again. No. Never done. Fully stocked. Fully organized. It'd be beautiful. So gorgeous. And Morgan, by the way, we do body doubling and discord where we get in, we get on a call and talk to each other while like sometimes Rebecca will be working, I'll be like cleaning the house sometimes. Just to like Just to be over around. Yeah. Just to have somebody there to chit chat with or just Be there as like a support. Yeah, that sounds lovely. I love that. Join us at, the only thing that I will miss is someone like mowing my lawn. 'cause I'll have to do that by myself. We can, we'll all be paid women. There has to be, 'cause we'll all be paid women. Sorry. There has to be a high school child somewhere who is willing to, no one will be jealous about the fact that we're more paid than them. Yeah. It'll just be, yeah. Good for you. Yeah. Yes. Good for you. I'm so proud of you. End of sentence. Great. Yeah. This sounds wonderful. And I, I think that we've talked me into Yeah. I honestly, so good luck at that concert, finding your wife. Yeah. I hope she's wonderful. I will update you. I'm excited. I need to be updated too, so lemme, I'll update everyone. Okay. Okay. Yeah. thank you guys so much for joining us. We are so glad that you're here. Thank you for the great conversation. Morgan, this is delightful. No, this was great. Was wonderful. Morgan. Yeah, thank you. Tell us, tell everybody where to find you. Yes, where can we find you? That's fine. so on just about everything, it's at Morgan's tribe. there's not a ton going on right now. I am working on beefing up my TikTok. you can also look at, at remote work Morgan, that's also TikTok. my stand store is located there. If you are in need of resume services, you're in need, help finding a remote job, which I have some expertise in, you can hit me up there and work out what you're looking for, what price range, what. Area of work. I can get you in there. and yeah, I, I don't really know what's next for me, but keep following and ideally something exciting is gonna pop up next. Yeah, three, six months. But also you're only two weeks in, so try to two weeks a little rest too maybe. Yeah. Rest, fill yourself up a little bit. Find the things that fill you up, like going to a concert on your own. yes, anyways, we'll see you guys next. Thank you so much, Morgan. Next week, we're gonna have, pre is going to join us. Dr. Pree is going to join us. she's a psychologist who specializes in Neurodivergence, A DHD and autism. So next Thursday, join us for that and, yeah. I think that's it. Subscribe, follow on all the things. Anne. Thank you guys for being here. We'll talk to you guys soon. Love it. Bye all. Bye guys. Bye. See you.