Jamie: 0:00

Well, he didn't say who it was.

Rebecca: 0:02

they knew

Jamie: 0:02

not the golf girl at Christian school with fishnets on her arms.

Rebecca: 0:06

the blue haired girl. No, not her.

0:11

I am Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

Rebecca: 0:19

Welcome.

Jamie: 0:21

Welcome. Hi, nice to meet you. Do you have religious trauma? That's how it, that's how it starts. Anyway, do we have housekeeping

Rebecca: 0:28

follow us. Please listen, rate and review on your podcast app. and join our discord, our dis, god damn it. Every time

Jamie: 0:35

card.

Rebecca: 0:35

our discard

Jamie: 0:37

do you wanna talk about what we just partook in part

Rebecca: 0:42

Yes. So before we talk about our religious trauma, which by the way, I was telling Jamie about 87% of the people in my life, after they hear this podcast, everything will suddenly click for them. People who have known me for years, they'll go, oh, that

Jamie: 0:57

this episode in particular, you

Rebecca: 0:58

Yes, this episode in particular. So that being said, while we were talking about the good things of which there are almost none, veggie tails did come up and out of all Christian propaganda, I will not stand for veggie tail slander. I love veggie tails. it can do no wrong. It is a joy and a delight. And as a warmup to this, we decided to watch some silly songs with Larry and if you don't know what that is, please google it. It's wonderful. Anyway. Religious trauma. Let's fucking jump into this. I have been sweating about

Jamie: 1:34

ready? Yeah.

Rebecca: 1:36

I'm sweaty.

Jamie: 1:37

Rebecca's. Ready. Ready. Also, I didn't realize until we decided we were gonna do this episode. Let, hang on. Let's back up. Let's talk about how we decided to do this episode.

Rebecca: 1:48

Go for it.

Jamie: 1:48

decided, because I don't even know who it was, it was somebody that Rebecca recently met and I think went out to dinner with, and you were immediately like, so what's your religious trauma? And she was telling me about it and we realized Rebecca and I do that a lot and we were trying to figure out, to people that we just met. Even I think it's because we've maybe like the person. And so we're like, okay, I kind of vibe with you. I kinda like you. You've gotta have some religious trauma. and I don't think that's failed me yet. I think every single person I've been like, so did you

Rebecca: 2:28

from a mile away. Just

Jamie: 2:31

Yeah.

Rebecca: 2:32

a mile away.

Jamie: 2:34

It's like too. Me too.

Rebecca: 2:38

Yeah.

Jamie: 2:39

but I realized that her like, Rebecca's religious trauma, honestly, is so much worse than mine. and one of the things about me that some of, you know, I'm sure, but not all of you, is my father's a pastor, so I also grew up a pastor's kid, which had its own set of gestures. Vaguely. but damn. But damn, has Rebecca won, won this award.

Rebecca: 3:11

Like I said, 87% of people who've ever met me are just gonna Oh, yep. It ha

Jamie: 3:17

did you invite all your closest friends and family to the show today?

Rebecca: 3:20

Now that my parents know about this podcast, I'm delighted. yeah, it has. I will say that all of this has culminated in me having a constant pot of rage just simmering in the background in all aspects of my life. Just on the back burner waiting to go, just a deeply angry, constantly. It has also been a lot of therapy. A lot of therapy, a lot of working through a lot of deconstructing and working with a therapist who specializes in religious trauma and deconstructing from religious trauma.

Jamie: 3:55

I actually didn't know you worked with a therapist who specialized in that. That's great.

Rebecca: 3:58

I didn't know she thera she the, she specialized in that. I didn't know

Jamie: 4:02

she theorized

Rebecca: 4:03

I thought she was just a therapist, but she al and she grew up very similar. So that's helpful because a lot of times I talk about this and I,

Jamie: 4:15

Religious trauma?

Rebecca: 4:16

it's gonna be very similar. A lot of, when I talk about this to people, I feel crazy and I feel like I am lying or making it up or exaggerating, because it sounds fucking nuts and I'm afraid people aren't gonna believe me or they're gonna think I'm just like, you know?

Jamie: 4:34

because that's probably what it was like growing up.

Rebecca: 4:37

Oh, yeah.

Jamie: 4:37

you spoke about these things, nobody would believe you

Rebecca: 4:40

Yeah.

Jamie: 4:40

you were exaggerating,

Rebecca: 4:42

And there's a lot of lessons that you're taught in the church that have ripple effects through the years into adulthood, that you don't realize are still doing harm until it's pointed out to you. just as an example, when I, when I was, when I'm working with my therapist, I was just going over, it's like, you know, I, there's all this, but I still have this and this. And so I'd be like, I'm having this trouble here, but things are still good. And she's you don't have to do that. You can just say things are bad. You don't have to constantly being, showing gratitude all the time. It's okay. Things can just be bad and it's just an automatic reflex. Just be like, but also so you know, you don't get sent to hell. anxiety started at the church. Anxiety and OCD started in the church and again, has ripple effects, through to today. being told that God only gives you as much as you can handle has had ripple effects, because when things get really hard, I don't ask for help and I don't let people know I'm struggling because if I do, then clearly I haven't been able to do it myself. and or I shouldn't be overwhelmed because the rule is you can have as much as you can handle when really, no, you can be completely overwhelmed and things can be super fucking bad.

Jamie: 5:59

It was meant to be, it was meant to happen like this. Just wait for the good to come out of the situation. And it's like sometimes there is no good that comes out of the situation.

Rebecca: 6:11

yes.

Jamie: 6:11

don't tell somebody who was, who was abused that like, well, you know, that made you who you are today and made you stronger. if they believe that, that's fine. Like I can respect that. But it's not your place. I. As a person, as a friend, as a religion, as a church, as a pastor, to tell somebody that the shitty thing that happened to them

Rebecca: 6:36

Part of God's plan. Yep.

Jamie: 6:37

was part of God's plan. Exactly.

Rebecca: 6:40

And that's the kind of, that's where the rage pot comes in, because it's like all those children in Gaza, that's part of God's plan. Go fuck yourself. No, it's not. there, oh, prosperity gospel is another big thing where it's like you're struggling or you don't do quite as well, and again, has had ripples.'cause it's well, I'm not, I am not working hard enough or I'm not doing enough. And

Jamie: 7:02

You're not giving enough money to the church.

Rebecca: 7:05

no, sometimes life just fucking sucks. Sometimes things are hard, sometimes you don't get what you want, or sometimes you're just really struggling and it's not because of you, you didn't do anything bad or good. It just sucks. And you're not pissing off Sky Daddy. You're just in the middle of a unfortunate, difficult situation.

Jamie: 7:25

Yeah.

Rebecca: 7:26

And the people who have the most are like, these are blessings. No, they're not. It's capitalism and greed and probably crime

Jamie: 7:36

hate and a lot of hate, honestly. Yeah.

Rebecca: 7:39

A hundred percent. A hundred percent. so yeah. So, oh, the other thing when, just an example, someone in a meeting the other day was like, oh, this great spreadsheet that, who created that? I created it. I didn't speak up and be like, I did it. Because that would be vain and prideful. And you must be humble.

Jamie: 8:03

you know what the funny thing is too? It's not funny at all, but, the funny thing is that all of these things like us. Not wanting to speak up, not wanting to be too prideful, not like wanting to stay humble. A lot of that I always attributed to, it's because that's how women were taught.

Rebecca: 8:28

That's also part of it.

Jamie: 8:29

that is true, but I think that stems greatly from the church, from religion. And I know not all religions and sects are this way, but like the church I grew up in, were not allowed to be pastors, were not allowed to be leaders.

Rebecca: 8:49

Same.

Jamie: 8:50

and

Rebecca: 8:52

No. Your lead, your leader's in your home. That's the only place you're allowed to be a leader is in your

Jamie: 8:56

Yeah, a leader of like your children and

Rebecca: 8:58

The children. Yep.

Jamie: 9:00

and cooking, and I was just telling Rebecca that I think I just attributed it to that and didn't realize at the time that was like affecting me and causing me to have like certain views. But later on in life when I've had struggles as an adult with speaking up or, being a leader, like I do think, I think I'm a great fucking leader, but that took a lot, for me to get there. And yeah. And just like anytime I worked at a place where I was beaten down for speak, for speaking up, or, somebody was like, oh.

Rebecca: 9:37

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 9:38

new, like, how dare she speak out? Or she's like under me, like she's not a manager. Like how dare she speak up? She's not part of the executive team. How dare she speak up? I just think that has affect affected me later on in life. And back then I didn't even think about it. Like I, it wasn't like they weren't telling us that all the time, but it was still all around me.

Rebecca: 9:58

Yes. In that same vein,

Jamie: 10:00

a woman's place. Yeah,

Rebecca: 10:03

in that same vein with women, body image is dog shit because you were taught if your husband cheats on you or is unfaithful, it's because you're ugly or too overweight, or you're not taking care of yourself or you don't look right. And he clearly had a wandering eye. But also at the same time, if you are raped, it's because of something you wore or something you did and you encouraged it. So it's this horrible dichotomy of you must keep it hot, but not too hot, but all and the clothes you have to wear, it's just crazy. And so you're constantly like worried about how you look because the guy's got no, A guy cheats on you'cause he's a piece of shit, not because of how you look.

Jamie: 10:51

That's him. That's yeah.

Rebecca: 10:53

So, and that's led to some fucked up relationships.

Jamie: 10:58

Yeah. That's very true.

Rebecca: 11:01

I mean sex, like I don't wanna have sex right now, but I'm not talking about this with Rob, this is like previous relationships. Like I don't wanna have sex. But we are taught that it is your partner or your husband's Right. I mean, not partner, they don't say that it's your husband's. Right. But you know what I mean. It's your husband's right to have sex with you when he wants to. And it is your job as the wife to let him, which is called marital rape. And so having sex when you don't really want to because, well, I have to, right? that's my quote unquote duty. Again, this is not referred to Rob. He will, he never, ever, ever, ever. but it took a while. It took a while for me to be like, I don't want to.

Jamie: 11:47

And then it also takes a while to, men too, but especially women like who grew up in the church with religion. I think it takes a while to like understand sexuality and understand sex and like, I feel like that, I think that's one of the biggest reasons we have all of these, you know, they call'em like late bloomer queers, you know what I mean? Like

Rebecca: 12:13

Well, it's the purity Purity culture.

Jamie: 12:15

Yeah, it was just like, you don't have sex. I, to be candid, this is probably more than anybody needs to hear. But,

Rebecca: 12:23

I

Jamie: 12:24

I, when I was very young, I learned what masturbation was and not from my parents. Oh, I guess it was from my parents, but it, or from my mother. But it was after a cousin had said something. I was like, oh, what is that? And then my mother later explained it to me and I was like, oh my God, I do that. And so I was so traumatized and I was so much like, oh my God, I'm doing this thing and it's so awful and I shouldn't be doing it. That I was like, bawling. And I went to my mom and I was like, I think I masturbate. And we can laugh about it, but like, I was so upset Back then I still believed or thought I believed, you know? And so I was like, oh my God, like this is one of the worst sins. And it was horrible and like traumatic for me. It just, it doesn't, it, it doesn't give kids, and yes, as kids, we need to have, we need to be comfortable, in our bodies and we need to know these things and know them early and

Rebecca: 13:27

and know that, know that our bodies could feel good. That's really important because they don't teach you. I never learned what orgasm was. I didn't know that sex was to make your body feel good. I never learned any of that.

Jamie: 13:39

If it weren't for this thing that came up. Yeah. If it weren't for this thing that came up with my cousin, I don't think if, I don't think my mom would've ever told me and like I could be wrong, but I don't think my mother would've ever told me like, oh, and this is masturbation and like this is, this is okay, or this is not okay. You know? It was just like,

Rebecca: 13:58

Your own pleasure. your, that your body is for your own, like your own pleasure. Again, ripple effects, body issues today. Uncomfortable with. I, I mean, again, stuff that's being worked on back then and is worked on now in therapy, but it's just like being comfortable with your own sexuality, which is a totally natural thing. But for so many years you've been told, Nope. Dirty and bad. So we had abstinence only, I believe sex education. The kind where it's like you will get pregnant aids and die. I'm shocked we didn't have more, uh, more teen pregnancies. But I waited until I was almost 18 to lose my virginity. And like, I was careful. I was with a boyfriend. I got grounded instead of, I got grounded and my, and my dad cried, I think'cause I was used up. Did you get the cake metaphor?'cause I got that too. Like

Jamie: 14:48

used up No,

Rebecca: 14:50

your body is like a cake and if you give away slices, all that's left for your husband is gonna be crumbs. Yay. Oh, I was that.

Jamie: 14:59

told. That's fucked up.

Rebecca: 15:01

Yeah.

Jamie: 15:02

and then I think that's the thing too.'cause I don't know about you, but I was eager to learn about things and I think I like went about it as learning from my friends, I guess basically.

Rebecca: 15:16

I gotta eat something. I gotta eat my feelings on this one. I'm sorry. You keep talking. I'm gonna have a couple m and ms.

Jamie: 15:21

yeah. please. always be eating. but yeah, I just think, and I don't know about you, but I think that fucked me up going into my first sexual experience and even some after that,

Rebecca: 15:32

I cried after'cause I thought that's what you were supposed to do. I thought you were supposed to feel guilty after and cried. I actually didn't really feel guilty, but then I was like, then I felt guilty that I didn't feel guilty. Then I felt guilty that I liked it and then I cried and made

Jamie: 15:46

not like my first time. My first time was like, it's not like, oh, it hurt. It was just like, eh.

Rebecca: 15:53

And also your daughter on her own decides to wait until she's with somebody who she feels strongly about and loves and uses protection. To me, that indicates you have a smart fucking kid with a good head on her shoulders who's being careful on making careful choices about her own body.

Jamie: 16:10

I think so too.

Rebecca: 16:12

But no,

Jamie: 16:13

oh, my parents didn't know. Like they didn't know when I had sex. I didn't

Rebecca: 16:18

I

Jamie: 16:19

did they find out?

Rebecca: 16:20

I emailed my best friend about, and my mom read my email.

Jamie: 16:25

Was it like detailed?

Rebecca: 16:27

No, it was just like I lost my virginity. Like Bryant and I slept together, but, and um, my mom read my email and was like, do you have something to tell me? I was like, no,

Jamie: 16:37

Absolutely not. I had something to tell my best, my best friend. I emailed,

Rebecca: 16:41

uhhuh I have nothing to tell you.

Jamie: 16:45

oh my God.

Rebecca: 16:46

but yeah, that's what I mean. It's like I just, I, it's the constant unlearning of all the shit that has been taught to you for years at almost 40 is exhausting.

Jamie: 17:00

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca: 17:01

It's exhausting to feel abnormal all the time.

Jamie: 17:05

And then that, and then it's even, it can be even worse, like when you have your own kids, right? Like

Rebecca: 17:12

Oh my God, she has no idea. She, so the kids at her school told her that if you're gay, you're going to hell. Which pin in that?'cause I have a lot to fucking say about that. Kids at her school told her, oh, you're a lesbian. You're gonna go to hell. You're bi, you're gonna go to hell. Gay kids are gonna go to hell. And she's like, what is hell? What, what, what? And so it's these piece of shit kids today, we're not talking like 1980s, 1990s piece of shit. Kids today, when

Jamie: 17:39

Yeah.

Rebecca: 17:40

Drag queens read to kids in libraries, like telling kids the kids, telling her that she's going to hell. And she comes home and she's upset and like, should we go to church? And like, no, you're not. Fuck those kids one. But number two, it's like little kids shouldn't even know. I'm sorry. They shouldn't know about hell. They shouldn't know. It's just, that's such a moral weight on them that they're too little for and they can't fucking handle.

Jamie: 18:04

And then that just goes to then it just opens up the whole thing of things are good and bad. And even with we've talked about food, like certain foods being good and bad and like that stems from that as well. ugh. I remember though when you first told me that was happening with m because because you grew up in the church and

Rebecca: 18:23

Yeah.

Jamie: 18:24

horrible experiences. Of course. You know, she was not raised in the church or religious or anything. and then she all these kids at school are like Christian and talking about God all the time. And so she's interested, which I get like, of course you're gonna be interested. And so she like came to you and you called me and you were like, M wants a Bible.

Rebecca: 18:45

Oh,

Jamie: 18:45

like, what? And you were

Rebecca: 18:46

not in this house, young lady. Not in

Jamie: 18:49

Well, you considered it at first because you were like, I don't wanna like shut that down. You were like, do I get her a Bible? And then by like the end of the like 15 minute phone call, you were like, I'm not getting her a fucking

Rebecca: 19:00

I told her she can check it out. At the library. But I was like, not in this house, I did get her a book written by atheists, specifically for children, talking about different religions, why people believe what they believe. just explaining things and then talking about life science, and here's why this is not really true, but here's why it makes sense that people. Believed it. And so she's had that book for a long time since she was younger. And so I was like, Hey, let's go back to this again. Oh God. Oh, I was, I remember my pin, that was when I first started thinking like something's fucking hinky with church was I had made all these friends, I had gay friends and the pastor did a sermon where he's like,"I got some bad news folks. You're not gonna wanna hear it. You're not gonna like what? I have to say, you're gay, you're going to hell. I know it's people we love, but it's just a sad fact. People we love who are gay, they're going to hell. You don't believe in God going to hell. You don't know about God going to hell. All those tribes in Africa don't know about God going to hell."

Jamie: 19:58

don't repent. You don't say enough Hail Marys, you're going to hell.

Rebecca: 20:02

He's like"Jews going out." Like he just made a list of people going to hell. Gays were at the top, but, and I sat

Jamie: 20:09

like, you just have to believe and have faith and you'll go to heaven. So there's not like all these things about being like a good fucking person. It's just like,

Rebecca: 20:18

you better get out there and fucking tell'em. If you don't tell'em they go to help, that's your fault.

Jamie: 20:23

Oh God,

Rebecca: 20:24

Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but that's the other, it's just like, and I remember sitting and be like, how much trouble am I going to get him if I fucking walk out of church right now? I was. I was like 15, 16. And I had never done that, but I was like, oh, and my brain just went done. And then we found out later that he was stealing from the church.

Jamie: 20:43

I thought you were gonna say that he was gay.

Rebecca: 20:45

No, but then the

Jamie: 20:46

would be even better.

Rebecca: 20:48

the drummer had an affair with the youth group leader and he divorced his wife of a million years and then married the youth group leader and it was crazy. Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 20:57

much of that.

Rebecca: 20:58

But the biggest fucking hypocrites is my point.

Jamie: 21:01

Yeah.

Rebecca: 21:02

Telling you. Fuck you. You're going to hell or telling you how to be fuck you,

Jamie: 21:07

Yeah.

Rebecca: 21:08

fuck you.

Jamie: 21:09

think, yeah,

Rebecca: 21:11

I, um, there's one more little purity culture story. Went to Jesus camp. I held hands with a boy. He was so hot. So hot. He was very tall and very hot, and I held hands with him. And two male youth group leaders took me aside and away from everyone, which as an adult now, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Bad problems, bad problems. Got it. Didn't know that Then. And they took me aside and sat me down and were basically like giving me a whole fucking lecture on the importance of keeping my purity intact and how I'm sending the wrong signals

Jamie: 21:52

holding hands.

Rebecca: 21:54

what kind of girl I am and my virtues. And then see this is a thing that I'm going to say right now where when I say it out loud, it sounds crazy and like I'm lying, but it's not. One of the youth group leaders said,"I mean, my wife wasn't a virgin before we were married. She was raped, but I forgave her and I married her anyway." And I wish I was making it up. But the fact that this man a thought that he had any say in quote, forgiving his wife for being raped and B didn't see that the woman he's supposedly loved was hideously abused and was in no way her fault.

Jamie: 22:37

Yeah.

Rebecca: 22:37

Yet he made it her fault. And she was the one to blame.

Jamie: 22:40

fucked up.

Rebecca: 22:42

And he did a solid by marrying this used up. And I got the whole like, used up piece of trash thing. Like if you two gum, would you want? Yeah. And then I'm like, okay, go back to the group. And then I made out in the rain so hard with the boy I was holding him. Don't fucking tell me what not to do.

Jamie: 23:00

Yeah. Yeah. I think that kind of, yeah, that's awful. I, that's what I'm saying is nothing like that to me. Nothing like that was like, said to me. I mean, like, but that's what I think, that's what I think about, growing up in the church I grew up in, I feel like they just more, they're, they're very traditional

Rebecca: 23:24

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 23:25

they're like, I always like to say that they're boring. Like anytime someone's like, oh, like, um, I mean, I grew up Lutheran and like any, whenever somebody is like, oh, like what's Lutheran what do they believe? And I'm like, they're Christian. I was like, they're very traditional, like very boring. I've even had like actual Lutherans, like who are Christians? Say that about

Rebecca: 23:49

My, my grandma's Lutheran, she's always said, we're Catholics with half the guilt. like Catholics with half the guilt. And I was like, honestly fair,

Jamie: 23:58

Yeah. I feel like it's like less, less strict and Everything like that. Ooh, that's a good question, pat, because I have a story on that. Pat said. How did your schools handle teaching about religion? Did they teach about all the different ones?

Rebecca: 24:14

you take this one.'cause I went to public school, they didn't.

Jamie: 24:16

yeah. Well, I guess that's me. That's something I can talk about. I went to private Lutheran school my entire life. My first school was kindergarten through eighth grade, all one school. from there I went to a high school that the majority of people from this, elementary slash middle school went to. and so then I went to high school, also Lutheran, and I think it's just like my biggest thing. So it was like being a pastor's kid. I don't know if that gave me more of a rebellious streak or because people always expected like me to be perfect and like also be the perfect Christian and like be the perfect daughter and perfect student and perfect whatever. so I don't know if that's what made me rebellious or if that's just my personality.'cause that's definitely my personality. But that could have been like, learned through that. I don't know. but I was always rebellious. Like I always liked to dress differently. I liked to be friends with the weirdos and the freaks that everyone else thought, you know? I don't know, they just like. Didn't pay attention to or didn't wanna hang out with.'cause those are my people, like those are still my people today. And like, like look, I have Rebecca, you know, she's my weirdo freak. but in, this is a story I wanted to tell. So like, yes. So we had religion class. also there was a confirmation. So once you're in eighth grade as a Lutheran, you take confirmation class, you have to take this class where you like, basically you're just memorizing the C cat cataclysm.

Rebecca: 25:57

Mm-hmm. No

Jamie: 26:00

so

Rebecca: 26:00

cataclysm. Is that, doesn't that mean bad? That means a bad event. Like a cla

Jamie: 26:06

I, as I said that, I was like, wait, is that the, what? What was it? The catechism.

Rebecca: 26:11

catechism. See, again, I

Jamie: 26:13

So not cataclysm. Catechism. Sorry. Catechism. Catholicism. Catholicism. So bad. We're fine. Thank you everybody for your help. My dad is just there oh god. but. So catechism. So you had to like, yeah, so we always had religion class. there was always like, I think K through eight, it was like religion where we just talked about different things. Eighth grade was mostly studying the catechism and yeah, you were basically memorizing it. And I remember, so the pastors, so the school was connected to the church, not connected physically, but they were like the same. It was like this specific church and this the school. And so the pastors from the church, which one being my father, would come over and teach religion class to us in eighth grade and teach us the catechism. And I remember my father made the mistake of telling us all, you know, oh,'cause we had to answer these questions in front of God and our families and our like, grandparents that were in from out of town, like in front of the church. And my dad was like, well, I think he was trying to be nice. And he's if you can't remember something when you're asked, just say, I do not recall, and I'll go on to the next person. we can come back. So that became a joke to all of us. Like my entire class was like, oh, okay. So especially when we were up there, like my dad was just like, why did I do that? like it's my daughter and her friends, they're all unhinged. so we, we would just be like, I do not recall and say it in such like a proper way and we said it for most everything. so that was embarrassing. But anyway, not to me. but the story I wanted to talk about was when I was in high school. So in high school I had theology class. It was my freshman year. I'm at high school with like half kids that I've been going to school with four, eight years already, eight, nine years already. And then half like new kids that. I'm not familiar with in one of our first theology assignments from Pastor Mack. So Pastor Mack, he was a pastor that I believe was retired.

Rebecca: 28:28

he is not like the other pastors. He's the cool pastor

Jamie: 28:31

yeah. No, it's exactly that. It's exactly that. But I do really, you'll understand why, but I do really respect him. I have two stories about him. One is the first assignment we got from him in ninth grade was, I want you all to write one to two pages about your faith and like, why you believe in God.

Rebecca: 28:56

Oh shit.

Jamie: 28:58

And at that point I was like, I don't believe in God. And so I sat there wanting to write this paper, and I was like, do I just give lip service so that like I tell them what they want to hear, so I'm not bothered. But I couldn't do that. I just felt so strongly about no, I have to like, speak my truth or whatever, So I wrote I think three pages about why,

Rebecca: 29:28

One to two, you're like, fuck you, I'll do three.

Jamie: 29:31

I did. I wrote more, about why I didn't believe, but also why I didn't know what I believed. it was basically like, this is why I'm agnostic, was like, I think the thing. And so I was, after I wrote it, I like reread it a couple times. I did. They try to push the dumbass purity ring things on you. I never had to get one.

Rebecca: 29:57

I had one. I had one. I had two. Actually. Guess what? Guess what?

Jamie: 30:05

They don't work. They don't work.

Rebecca: 30:07

at work. That work?

Jamie: 30:08

No, I never had one. But so after I read it over a couple times, I was like, I don't know if, I was like, I don't, pastor Max seems really cool. I was like, but I don't know if like he'll take offense to this or be like, pissed off because that was like, that was usually what I got for speaking my mind.'cause I had even told my parents, like when I was young, when I was that age, that I'm like, I don't know what I believe and I don't think this is it. And I stopped taking communion.'cause I read on the back of a bulletin one day in church with my mom, like it was toward visitors of the church. And it was like, if you're visiting, like this is what we believe and if you don't believe this, please don't take communion with us. But if you do, like you're welcome to take communion with us, basically. And I read that and I was like, I don't believe that. And so at that moment I was like 13 or 14 and I was like probably 14. And I was like, well, I can't go to communion anymore. I was like,'cause that's not my truth, I don't believe that. And I remember the first time I didn't go to communion, my mom was like, and she was like upset with me and can you imagine like pastor's daughter?

Rebecca: 31:13

she can't yell at you in church. So she's just going

Jamie: 31:15

Yeah. I think, well I think she was like, and I was just like, no picture like 14-year-old Jamie. I was like, no thank you.

Rebecca: 31:24

and she's we're gonna talk about this in the car.

Jamie: 31:26

But I told them why I was like, but this is what it says. So like I, I'm not gonna go up'cause that's a lie. And anyway, so I was feeling weird about it. So I wrote Pastor Mack this like little note on top and I was just like, Hey, I hope this doesn't offend you in any way. I'm not trying to be offensive or like facetious.'cause it was a very serious paper and like I thought it was well done, but it was just against everything the church and the school stood for. So I come in, I think it was like we turned it in on a Friday and then he like graded him over the weekend and he came in and so his was the first class I had every morning freshman year. And I would always show up late and I would bring him a coffee from where I got a coffee so that he didn't mark me absent. And this was before that though,'cause I didn't know him that well yet. So I went in, I was kinda like leaning on my desk, okay, getting ready to go to sleep in class. And then he starts talking about these papers and he's oh, a lot of these papers were really good. And he goes, there was one that was actually like, I think the best of the bunch. And I don't know why, but there was for some reason our, this person thought I might be offended and it's I'm not offended, whatever. And he was like, but I'm gon, and so when he said that, then I knew it was me. I had an inkling and then I knew it was me and I was like, the best paper. And I was like, what? And then he is I'm just gonna read it for you. And I was like, oh no. So he read my paper in front of class. You should have seen how distraught and just pissed off all these kids were that I was surrounded by. like they were like, oh, but that person isn't Christian. They don't believe in God. And that's horrible. Why would you say that this is the best, my paper is about how I believe in God because that's how my parents raised me. And I think I wrote that in my paper too. I was like, I think a lot of people my age that I've been to school with. Maybe they do believe, but I don't think they've found that yet on their own right now. They just believe because their parents believe,

Rebecca: 33:33

Yeah. Isn't it weird? Those, you know how Jesus was like, love one another, and they're like, fuck her. She's not C

Jamie: 33:40

I know. Well, he didn't say who it was.

Rebecca: 33:43

they knew

Jamie: 33:44

no, not the golf girl at Christian school with fishnets on her arms.

Rebecca: 33:50

the blue haired girl. No, not her.

Jamie: 33:53

no. I couldn't dye my hair.

Rebecca: 33:56

Oh, that's right. You just shaved it off.

Jamie: 33:57

yeah. And then I shaved my head in eighth grade and it was a whole thing and everybody hated it. And I was treated like a, like a fucking leper.

Rebecca: 34:06

I have to ask. He read it'cause he genuinely meant it. Right. He didn't read it as he's fucking shaming

Jamie: 34:11

no, no, no, no, no, no. He genuinely meant it. And then after class, he like passed out the papers or whatever. And then after class I kinda waited for everybody to leave. And I went up to him, I was like, I can't believe you did that. And he's it was really well thought out. It was really well written. And he's and this is a time for you to question. So with him in theology class in high school, we, he made a point. We would, we would learn about all different religions, which I thought was really cool. I think a lot of parents actually had problems with him sometimes because he was like, just a little more open. and the other thing with him was I was just an average student. Oh, go ahead.

Rebecca: 34:52

no, I say was he the kind of open where he just sits on the front of his desk instead of in his chair and leans back? He just,

Jamie: 35:00

No,

Rebecca: 35:01

We're gonna just gonna chat today. Kids.

Jamie: 35:03

he walked around a lot and had a little like tiny podium thing that he would just lean on. sometimes he would walk around class too. And just he was goofy. He was totally the teacher who was like, I'm not a tea normal adult. I'm like the cool adult. I'm your friend,

Rebecca: 35:18

of you guys?

Jamie: 35:20

yeah, exactly. But the other thing with him is, I was reading this book, I can't believe I remember the author's name. It's by James Morrow and it's called Towing Jehovah. And I read so much in high school. oh, hey, welcome in. Not, no, not t I have lot of respect for the ones who retain open-mindedness in a space like that. Me too. Yeah. No, totally. And, oh, but I was reading this book and he would do this thing where he would walk around and instead of being like, Jamie, you're in trouble. you need to put your book away and pay attention. he would walk around and you'd sometimes he'd be like, oh, what are you reading? And I'd be like, oh. And the book was about God dying and his massive like giant fucking body falling, like physical body falling from the sky somewhere in Florida, I believe.

Rebecca: 36:25

There's a

Jamie: 36:26

Have you ever told you this? Have I ever told you?

Rebecca: 36:29

No, but there's a God who, same thing happens. That's a marble storyline. Sorry, go ahead.

Jamie: 36:35

Falls from the sky. It gets better. And they, Made him and the surrounding area a theme park,

Rebecca: 36:43

Yeah.

Jamie: 36:44

and I think they had to, it was called Towing Jehovah, because I, it's been a long time, but I think they had to tow him to a certain spot or something like

Rebecca: 36:52

Oh my God.

Jamie: 36:53

theme park. So they were like towing God's body a theme park. Yeah. It was any, anyway, so that's what the book was about. And so he is oh, what are you reading? So I was like, hesitant and I was like, oh, it's called to Jehovah. And then he's oh, what's it about? And I was like, I don't know. And he's no, come on Jamie. What's it about? And so I told him, and again, all the kids in my class were like, oh my God, that's sacrilegious. That's sacrilegious.

Rebecca: 37:19

no,

Jamie: 37:20

what a heathen. She is a heathen. Stop giving her a voice.

Rebecca: 37:23

it sounds really familiar, pat, because that was literally a Wolverine and Deadpool. What it was is they just built the whole city in ant man's skull. That's why. Sorry, go ahead.

Jamie: 37:36

You may have read that, pat. I can picture you reading that. but yeah, that was my other story from that, so yeah, I did absolutely respect that. He, and honestly, my, my father as well, being a pastor, if I had asked my father about different religions, he wouldn't be closed off about it. he would be like, oh, well this is like what they believe and whatever. So I learned a lot from my father and from, pastor me, my theology teacher in high school, like about other religions, which I think helped me too. And I think that's really important. I think that's, I don't think it should be forced on kids, but, I think that's, I great to it's like learning about anything, here are the facts here. What's this about? Here is what.

Rebecca: 38:21

Yeah.

Jamie: 38:22

This group of people

Rebecca: 38:24

Well'cause theology is the study of all religions, not just one. that's staying true to what it actually is.

Jamie: 38:31

Yeah. but yeah, that was my, those are my two good Pastor Mac stories.

Rebecca: 38:37

My turn learning religion. You say learning out different religions, you say First Jesus camp I went to was in the Poconos Mount Gilead summer camp for girls

Jamie: 38:49

Of course, it's Gilead.

Rebecca: 38:51

and they're still in business. I will see you bitches in hell.

Jamie: 38:54

no.

Rebecca: 38:56

We're in the middle of the woods. No electricity, nothing. No media. We are asleep one night. It is still freezing ass cold. We are in a cabin, no electricity, no walls, and they burst in and they say, girls get up. We just heard on the radio that the president has made religion and practicing religion illegal. We are going to march up the hill. They're out looking for religious prac practitioners. Practitioners. I don't know. But we are going to defy him and we are going to march up this giant hill. They're out looking for people who are practicing religion. They're rounding them up and we are going to show how deep our faith is and how much we love God and how much he'll protect us by going up and like singing, I know. Singing some bullshit song in the middle of the field, in the middle of the night. So then you have a group of adult women leading a group of sobbing little girls who, by the way, a side note, this is when Bill Clinton was president and we were dumb girls who didn't know the constitution or the fact that Bill Clinton had a nice blow job from an intern. We had no clue. And so had we had any critical thinking skills, we would've been like, well that doesn't seem right. But we were 11, so we march up this hill, we're all sobbing. It's dark as shit except for the flashlights because again, no electricity in anywhere. Middle of woods in the Poconos. We get up to the hill, we are all convinced that the helicopters are coming and we are going to be round up and shot

Jamie: 40:26

Jesus fucking Christ, dude.

Rebecca: 40:28

and we get up there. Ah, they say girls, LOL. This is just a test of your faith to see like how much you actually believed in God. And the fact that you came up here shows that you really do believe in him. Good job. And I told you this, Jamie, but looking back now, there is a spark of me today that there was, that exists today. That was in there back then. Because I went, I want to call my mother right now. And I went and I called my mother and

Jamie: 41:01

You are like, this is fucked up.

Rebecca: 41:03

It was, and they didn't come get me. And as an adult it's'cause they had another little kid at home and it was like three hours away. I did not forgive them for a very long time for not coming to get me. I get it now. But I did learn that my mother wrote multiple scathing letters to them, I don't know if she threatened legal action. I would almost guarantee it. but Mount Gilead. Christian camper girls,

Jamie: 41:28

it still

Rebecca: 41:29

fuck you. Still exists.

Jamie: 41:32

That's so

Rebecca: 41:33

you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you, fuck you. And again, now the 87% of people, it's like a light bulb. They all get it now. Simmering pot of rage.

Jamie: 41:46

Well, and it just makes you like also not trust

Rebecca: 41:49

Nope.

Jamie: 41:50

Like you're just lied to. what is that Lying is a sin. Why are you lying to these like young, impressionable girls who like don't know any better and are like depending on you, the adults to Jesus?

Rebecca: 42:06

And again, that story is one of those things you didn't even know about. And you're my best friend because when I

Jamie: 42:12

I just heard about this today.

Rebecca: 42:15

it sounds crazy and none of it is exaggerated. It is all exactly as it happened. And I'm probably underselling it because we were sobbing

Jamie: 42:28

It's not lying. It's a test of faith

Rebecca: 42:30

and I, we put in the, we put in the outline, how is the church not an abusive relationship? How is religion and the church not your abuser? It makes you feel bad about yourself all the time. It talks down you. It tells you what a piece. There's literally a worship song talking about he died on the cross for a worm. Such as I. So you feel like shit all the time. It tells you're bad. Look what I did for you. Aren't you fucking glad everything you have is because of me?

Jamie: 42:58

Listen, I know exactly where you're going with this, Rebecca, and yes, I would still love you if you were a worm.

Rebecca: 43:06

Thank you.

Jamie: 43:07

I would take care of you.

Rebecca: 43:08

Oh my God. Thank you so much. You can live in my garden. I'd let you live in my garden.

Jamie: 43:13

no. I'm not a worm. You're a worm.

Rebecca: 43:14

Oh, okay. Thank you. I will live in your garden anyway. My point is, it is fucking abusive as fuck. And I will take everything away if you go against me. How is that not abuse? It is abuse. And while we're on that fucking topic, going back to my rage pot, I can see my face and I'm just like getting pink. James Dobson, a focus on the family also. Fuck you. Because my parents followed along with your whole spare the rod, spoil the child and boil. Boy, we were not spoiled at all. And I blame you for a lot of my upbringing. Go fuck yourself. Go fuck yourself. And again, you wanna talk about fucking ripples. I am in therapy because I don't know how to parent. I wanted to parent without screaming or hitting. And I didn't know how to do that because we didn't get that. But I am doing that because we're stopping the fucking cycle. But the fact that was given to parents under the guise of religion. And so the parents are going, well, we're doing, we're doing what religious leaders are telling you. And then us today are going, we were in abusive households and abused, and the parents are like, no, this was not abusive. We loved you. And then we get the whole, we're doing this because we love you.

Jamie: 44:33

Yeah.

Rebecca: 44:34

Oh, the worst part was they would apologize to us after and then make us hug them to show that they still loved us. It's an abusive relationship.

Jamie: 44:45

horrible.

Rebecca: 44:46

Relationship. And that's, but that's what they told the parents to do. Sorry.

Jamie: 44:50

Yeah, no, I know. Pat said it's like military bootcamp where they break you down so they can build you up how they want

Rebecca: 44:58

Except they don't build you up. They keep holding you down. They keep telling you that you're not worthy. Everything bad that happens is because of

Jamie: 45:04

believe them.

Rebecca: 45:06

Until you, you, whatever you fucking did was not good enough. Here's the thing. My parents told me that, my mom told me. She was like, oh, you were great at arguing and making arguments. You were so smart. And asked so many questions. They beat that outta me because it was bad, it was disobedient. And I know I'm not, it's not just me. this is how kids were raised in evangelical households. Right? so you have a whole generation of people out there who are now recovering from that.

Jamie: 45:35

Yeah. And who knows if it'll ever be a full recovery, honestly.

Rebecca: 45:39

It's never gonna be,

Jamie: 45:40

there's a lot. Paper says you're worthy, paper says you're worthy.

Rebecca: 45:45

of being a worm.

Jamie: 45:47

Yeah. That's probably what she meant.

Rebecca: 45:48

Yeah. Thank you. and it's, and the kids who aren't in therapy, the kids of yesterday who are parents now who aren't in therapy, are now fucking up the next fucking generation of kids because they don't know any better.

Jamie: 46:00

I'm telling you, it's like we go to therapy'cause our parents didn't go to therapy. You know what I mean?

Rebecca: 46:05

and how is Jesus love? How is that, how are you show Jesus was love. Fuck. He was like, you're gonna stone this hooker. I don't think so. Like you go for, you hated capitalism.

Jamie: 46:18

Yes.

Rebecca: 46:20

He literally hung out with prostitutes and the blind and the disabled. Those were his people. He loved everyone. He gave, he had snacks. He had good snacks. He made sure everyone had snacks. Like he brought the booze like he was a good guy. And you are telling me that you think he would approve of all the shit you're doing.

Jamie: 46:40

That's what gets me to,

Rebecca: 46:42

What?

Jamie: 46:44

yeah.

Rebecca: 46:45

No. Fuck you.

Jamie: 46:48

oh my God.

Rebecca: 46:50

And yet, here's the other thing you and I were talking about. We are raised with this with, and we turned out the way we did, and we're liberals. We try to be open-minded. We try to be empathetic. We try to have good emotional intelligence because that's how we were raised. Like in talking about Jesus, not not, but like in the, in, in the, how Jesus was, we were told how Jesus

Jamie: 47:16

Yeah.

Rebecca: 47:17

And so trying to, as non-religious people, just trying to take those lessons and emulate them. And then our parents was like,

Jamie: 47:24

Be a good person and try to love, not everyone, but try to love, most everybody. and then our parents are like, I don't know how you got like this, I don't know how like you became so liberal and like blah, blah. And it's it's not even that I'm so liberal, it's just that like you raised me to be a good fucking person. And that's what I'm trying to do is be a good fucking person because that's what I think is important.

Rebecca: 47:49

Correct.

Jamie: 47:50

And that blows my mind when they're like, I don't know how, you're like this now. And it's what?

Rebecca: 47:56

Right. What do you mean you didn't vote for Trump? he's the, he's exactly an example of

Jamie: 48:01

Oh my God.

Rebecca: 48:02

person.

Jamie: 48:03

Jesus was alive today, like Jesus would be like,

Rebecca: 48:06

He would flip the table. He would flip his shit so hard.

Jamie: 48:10

yeah. There's just that, that all that man is hate and greed and selfishness

Rebecca: 48:18

Everything. Jesus hated everything we were

Jamie: 48:21

it's I don't understand it, man.

Rebecca: 48:23

no.

Jamie: 48:23

it.

Rebecca: 48:24

and here's the thing. Oh, you really wanna talk about some shit. Okay. I. Church leaders are telling everyone, in churches that are doing this, that while Trump, he's an imperfect leader, but he's still there because Christ, we wanna have a Christlike America and he's gonna help us. Christian nationalism is a whole thing, which is a whole other podcast.'cause that's that's too much to get into. But everything Jamie and I are talking about is rooted in Christian nationalism, which is the belief that this religion is the only religion, the right religion. And it is our job as Christians to go out across the nation and make everyone else conform to our beliefs, because that's what Christ would fucking want.

Jamie: 49:09

Mm-hmm.

Rebecca: 49:11

And so they're saying that even though Trump is an imperfect leader, he's there to help the spread of, to make this nation Christian,

Jamie: 49:22

all part of God's plan.

Rebecca: 49:23

it's all part of God's plan. And I'm stuttering. I'm stuttering because I think I'm going to have a stroke. And I'm trying not to throw up and cry.

Jamie: 49:32

Should we take a break?

Rebecca: 49:34

I'm okay, but I just, the, again, the rage, the flames, the flames.

Jamie: 49:41

I know. Yeah.

Rebecca: 49:44

My face

Jamie: 49:44

a lot.

Rebecca: 49:45

it's so hot. but that's what it is. And it just, it baffles me. It baffles me, how they think that someone who literally sexually assaulted women, prob I'm gonna go with raped. who hates everyone who's not white or male? and who is. Surrounding himself with other people who also hate those people, how they can say, who would love that guy? Fucking Jesus. He and Jesus would hang, they make paintings of him in the office with Jesus standing behind him on his shoulder, being like, great job, dude.

Jamie: 50:18

Yeah.

Rebecca: 50:19

What? What?

Jamie: 50:22

Yeah.

Rebecca: 50:23

Sorry. I'm sorry. I know. I just

Jamie: 50:25

No, no, no, no, no. Don't be sorry. That's what, that's why we're talking about this. That's why we're doing this. That's,

Rebecca: 50:31

ripples. Just, and you wanna talk about burnout? Every time someone says, I pray for you, I wanna slap'em across the fucking face.

Jamie: 50:39

yeah.

Rebecca: 50:39

Please don't. No thank you. Mm-hmm. No.

Jamie: 50:43

Everything happens for a reason. It's all part of God's plan.

Rebecca: 50:48

If someone said to me, oh, when my grandpa died, but at least he's with Jesus now or in a better place.

Jamie: 50:56

Yeah.

Rebecca: 50:58

No.

Jamie: 50:58

I had such a hard time when my grandma died and when my grandpa died, when all of my grandparents died, but in particular my mother's parents, because we were closest to them, we lived near them. Most of my life. And I remember family coming up to me because I was like inconsolable, like at the funerals and after hanging out with family. And I remember family coming up to me that knew that I didn't believe in God and they would come up to me and say, do you think you're having such a hard time with this because you don't believe in God and you don't believe they're in heaven? Kinda like

Rebecca: 51:46

you

Jamie: 51:46

doing so much better with this if you believed in God and heaven. And that's how I think of it. Like I think of it as just I don't know. like I get it to a certain extent, like wanting to have this thing to make you feel comfort

Rebecca: 52:01

They're hiding though.

Jamie: 52:03

shit. Like

Rebecca: 52:04

dealing, though. They're not. They're not processing emotions. They're hiding behind Christianity. And then it comes out as beating the shit outta your kids later.'cause you can't deal with your fucking trauma.

Jamie: 52:14

Yeah.

Rebecca: 52:15

You are processing it in real time. You're feeling grief, you're sad. You're not trying, because that's the other thing you're learning is that you better be goddamn tap dancing. Fucking happy at all the things that Jesus has given you. Why are you crying? He's what? You're not allowed to feel anything but gratitude and happiness and the fact that you, they were trying to talk you out of grief.

Jamie: 52:38

Yeah.

Rebecca: 52:39

I am sorry that

Jamie: 52:40

at my grand, yeah, it's okay. I remember at my grandma's funeral too, like just sitting in the very back of the church and just I couldn't stop crying and like I wouldn't go see. Same with my grandpa. Like I won't look at people in coffins. Like I won't do that. And I just remember looking around at everyone that was like visiting basically with each other. I get it too. You're seeing a lot of people you haven't seen in a while and fine, great. But like I was just so distraught and just bawling and I could not stop. I was practically hyperventilating and I was just looking around at all these people just like talking to each other. And I like, I just remember thinking like, how no one else like this upset right now?

Rebecca: 53:28

Yes.

Jamie: 53:30

am I the one, and sorry, not to say yes, a lot of people were very upset,

Rebecca: 53:35

You were feeling your feelings though. You weren't adding the addendum of but he's in heaven. You were Actually, I get exactly what you mean.

Jamie: 53:41

yeah. Whew.

Rebecca: 53:44

I, this just popped into my head. as a real world example, like that happened last month. I have a lot of clothes that don't fit anymore, and I have a different body and now than I did with a lot of my clothes. And, one of my friends was like, well, why don't you get something sexy? Don't you have anything sexy to wear? And I was like, oh, no. no. I, which again, I'm 40, but I don't think about dressing that way because it was hammered into me for so fucking long that's not how you dress.

Jamie: 54:12

Yeah.

Rebecca: 54:13

and that's just

Jamie: 54:14

dressing how I wasn't supposed to dress though. I

Rebecca: 54:17

I'm so proud of you though, like

Jamie: 54:19

made it a point that was like the only thing I could do.

Rebecca: 54:22

it's so brave.

Jamie: 54:23

convenient and emotionally simple to live blind, but it's A weird self snitch to suggest that there's nothing twisted about believing as an act of cope.

Rebecca: 54:35

Yep, exactly.

Jamie: 54:37

Yeah. I get it. I think I actually think about that a lot. Like I've even have had people that love me, that I love cry to me and literally say just so sad like that you won't be with me in heaven. Or something like that, which is like a fucked up thing to say to somebody. but at the same time, and this is probably just me, but like one, I get it because if I believe something so strongly and it was this great thing and this person that I also love so very much wasn't going to have that and was instead gonna have something that I believe is so terrible, I would be really upset about that and crying. So I understand it from that aspect, but it's also not really a great thing to be like, I'm so sorry that you're just gonna go to hell. whatever. But yeah, I do that. That's how I see religion and I don't fault religion or believing in a higher being.

Rebecca: 55:32

Oh no, it's the people.

Jamie: 55:33

for, yeah. I don't fault that for, but that's how I see it. I see it as a cope. I just see it as this is a nice thing to believe, like this is a nice story to believe. and I don't know by the way, like that's why I am I agnostic as fuck because I don't know, could something be sure, maybe, probably not, but I don't know, like I believe Jesus was a dude that sounds really fucking cool to me. And,

Rebecca: 56:04

But so is Buddha. So is Mohammed. They're,

Jamie: 56:06

I don't believe like he is God like or the son of God.

Rebecca: 56:12

I think being autistic, and undiagnosed little, but still, like growing up in the church, being autistic, it's really hard because there's a lot of things that don't make sense. And you're like, and they're like, just believe. And you're like, no. You have to explain to me how that actually works. For example, a man cannot sit in a whale's, digestive juices and not die. How does, well, God saved him. No, because it's acid. Acid and acid. Like I really struggled because I was like,

Jamie: 56:45

Yeah. I think that's it too, is like both of us are like big question askers

Rebecca: 56:50

oh God. Yes.

Jamie: 56:51

and I think that just

Rebecca: 56:53

What do you mean he had a boat big enough for all animals?

Jamie: 56:57

Yeah. what

Rebecca: 56:59

It was just a big boat. no. Also, how did all the animals cross the ocean to get to him? Did all the animals live on one continent? No, they didn't.'cause if you, I don't know, let's say we were in Egypt. How did he get like kangaroos from Australia?

Jamie: 57:13

you guys, Rebecca has really thought about this,

Rebecca: 57:16

No, those are the questions I'm, that's what I mean though. Like those are the questions and it was like it didn't make sense and it never made sense, but just being told to believe.

Jamie: 57:26

Yeah.

Rebecca: 57:27

See, Nope. This goes back to my, that's how you get Nazis. If you just listen and follow orders and believe that's how you get Nazis. And I think that's just, I was like,

Jamie: 57:34

That's very true. That's very true.

Rebecca: 57:37

that's my thesis in life is like you don't follow'cause that's how Nazis happen. but that's what I mean, like questioning and not believing and wanting a kid and parents wanting a kid who's,'cause kids are exhausting, but wanting a kid who is complacent and follows the rules but doesn't like,

Jamie: 57:53

Yeah,

Rebecca: 57:55

I dunno, man, I don't know.

Jamie: 57:58

I'm trying to think if there was any other,

Rebecca: 58:00

I wanna talk about commun communion real quick. I was

Jamie: 58:03

yeah. Yeah. We

Rebecca: 58:04

'cause church was at like 10 10 to 11 AKA prime snack time. Prime snack time. oh, two things actually. and one, I was so excited when I finally got commun communion because hell yeah, snack time. I was always hungry in church and I was so disappointed by how gross it was.

Jamie: 58:22

Yeah,

Rebecca: 58:24

oh, yuck. And at my grandma's church, they all drank out of the same cup. I'm like, I'm not fucking doing that. That's disgusting.

Jamie: 58:31

we could all go visit the giant ark in Kentucky. Wait, there's a giant ark in Kentucky. I don't know about this.

Rebecca: 58:37

there is actually, Fundie Fridays is a YouTube channel that I follow and like they, they deconstruct a lot of evangelical people and movements and beliefs. they're great. I think they went to that, or was it the Creationism Museum? They also went to the Precious Moments Museum. So,

Jamie: 58:54

I looked it up and all I see is like children on zip lines. Like they have like zip lines that maybe go from the arc, I don't know. a creation museum.

Rebecca: 59:07

Yep. Where dinosaurs are just 6,000 years old or something. Bullshit

Jamie: 59:12

didn't have that problem. My old church had bombass food. Oh dude. We would have what were they called? Potlucks. Potlucks and shit all the time where like people would like cook and make good food. That food was good, however. my coffee addiction started when I was like 10, 11, and my dad would just give me coffee sometimes, but it was always church coffee and it was not good, but that is what started it. oh yeah. But communion, no, it was never good.

Rebecca: 59:40

you guys didn't have, oh, sorry. no. You go. you?

Jamie: 59:44

I was just, this is just a stupid funny story. It's like me and my friend, I was telling you Jackie, who like, we would watch Veggie Tails all the time. We knew all the veggie tails songs and like always fooled around and we would, sometimes we'd go up to communion together and our favorite thing to do is we always took the little, plastic cup of like communion wine as like a shot. So we would take it really fast as a shot. Yeah. And then, this one time I was just fooling around and so I think I even looked up at my dad,'cause my dad's like giving communion, right? My dad's oh my God. but I was like shoving my tongue in the glass and then I was like looking over at Jackie and then it broke. I was like, that looked bad. we're gonna cut that. and like my tongue broke it and it, it broke apart. So then I had to take it and they have a tray because even though they're supposed to be disposable plastic cups, they would still have you return them to them.

Rebecca: 1:00:44

they washed and reused them.

Jamie: 1:00:45

would wash them and reuse them, of course. And I know that they weren't gonna reuse this or whatever, but I had to put that like on the tray for the elders or like church people to be like, what'd you do?

Rebecca: 1:00:58

That's gonna cost us 5 cents. Damn it.

Jamie: 1:01:01

And also at the church that I really grew up in, for 14 years of my life, we lived there and went there from when I was four till 18. after communion, after church was over and everything, like the elder or the pastor, whoever would go out and if they had a bottle of wine that only had a little left in it, they would just go outside and dump it and not even look, they just opened the store and dump it in the it was like a bush or something like, just like the whatever. And then all of a

Rebecca: 1:01:31

a waste

Jamie: 1:01:32

they started noticing that the bush started getting a hole in it. So they were killing this bush

Rebecca: 1:01:40

church wine is. Acid

Jamie: 1:01:44

it was so bad. It was just a normal healthy bush. And then all of a sudden this hole, it started getting bearer and bearer in the middle and then there was like a hole in it because they would just dump the leftover

Rebecca: 1:01:55

church wine. No, I was gonna tell you, you didn't do altar calls. I don't think you did, but altar calls in church are when, I think it's during communion. but if you feel moved to go up, because you, your faith in Christ has been renewed or you're feeling extra slutty, sinful that day, I don't fucking know. You can go up

Jamie: 1:02:15

feeling extra slutty, sinful.

Rebecca: 1:02:17

correct, you can walk up your little walk to the front of the church and just stand up there and be like, I am a sinner, but I am repenting and I'm renewing my faith to God. I, Rachel if I'm wrong on this, I think you did one. I was embarrassed for you if it was you. I know someone in You did. But I remember my mom one time was just looking at me like,

Jamie: 1:02:37

You gonna go? Was it after she found out you lost your virginity?

Rebecca: 1:02:41

no, thankfully no. But she was just like, is that something that interests you? And she will also be like, I never did that. You 100%

Jamie: 1:02:49

Isn't that so funny? I'll tell my mom things that she didn't, she'll be like, I never did that. And I'll be like, you did too. You a hundred percent did too.

Rebecca: 1:02:58

don't tell the autistic with receipts that you didn't because bitch, you did. You did

Jamie: 1:03:03

that you didn't do it. We remember

Rebecca: 1:03:06

you remember? But

Jamie: 1:03:07

we hold grudges, we are pepperidge farming, all of that shit. we got it. We got notes.

Rebecca: 1:03:13

But I never took, I never got confirmed. I never did the alt alter calls. Like I pretty much was like, nah,

Jamie: 1:03:20

I thought it was gonna be like you had to go.'cause like we also had, what did they call them? Oh, I wish I could remember what they called them. We basically had to do like service hours, like volunteer hours. But they called them like, they called them something stupid and we would have to do it for like our school.

Rebecca: 1:03:42

Choice for Christ.

Jamie: 1:03:44

it was something dumb. It wasn't that dumb, but it was like something very stupid. I'll think of it later maybe, or when I do the show notes for this, but so one of the ways that I would do that is I, again, a lot with my friend Jackie, we would schedule our, aco. So we would do ACO where we like put on the robes and were, we like lit the candles and then put the candles out at the end and then I just remember doing that as Service hours to get that out of the way. And it was like, so bad because Jackie and I would just just be like whispering and like giggling, like all the time. And we had, would have to sit, so not only did we have to go up in these robes and like light candles, but like for the service you would have the pastors are on this side sitting here and you would have to sit here Hey, trash

Rebecca: 1:04:28

did your dad

Jamie: 1:04:29

trash pals.

Rebecca: 1:04:31

did your dad just ever look at you like, I will fucking kill you?

Jamie: 1:04:35

No, I think there were even some things like my father did that were just like, like silly and like to be funny. And so I think stuff like that. And also like we were kids, like I think like my dad got that a little bit, but, I don't know. I'm sure there were tons of times where my father was like, shouldn't have done that or should have seen this coming,

Rebecca: 1:04:57

Oh yeah.

Jamie: 1:04:57

like that I do not recall for example.

Rebecca: 1:05:00

Pat said the last time we went to church back when I was in middle school, they called out the new people up to the front to come kneel and quote, except the Lord is your savior and have the cracker thing. I remember when they came to me, they asked me and I told them that I didn't accept, and they were so stunned and moved on. I went for the, I had went for the girl I liked at the time because she wanted me to go. We didn't hang out anymore after that. That I remember

Jamie: 1:05:21

for you.

Rebecca: 1:05:22

with someone, you had to be like, are you Christian? And then try to get them to, because you couldn't really date them if they weren't Christians. You'd be like, you gotta be a Christian now, or at least go to church.

Jamie: 1:05:30

Yeah.

Rebecca: 1:05:30

Just why, just fucking date him?

Jamie: 1:05:33

When I shaved my head in eighth grade like that too was just like how everyone reacted and like how I was so like othered and I get it. Like it was the nineties, so like it was the nineties and I was a girl, so it was shocking. I get that. But just like the way my parents and everyone at school and church reacted. Like one of my friend's dads would always be like, oh, hey GI Jane to me, like every time. And I just hated it. And yeah. And

Rebecca: 1:06:01

you

Jamie: 1:06:02

I think I told him that once, like as a teenager. He said it so many times that I think I was finally like, that's not really funny. I don't like it when you say that. it's oh. But, what else was I gonna say? I don't remember.

Rebecca: 1:06:15

GI Jane. Fuck it.

Jamie: 1:06:18

I was talking about shaving my head. No, I

Rebecca: 1:06:21

Chores for Christ.

Jamie: 1:06:23

don't remember. Oh, well.

Rebecca: 1:06:27

again, I could go on about this four hours, four hours, and I'm, I won't, but I really want to because there's just so

Jamie: 1:06:35

We can. We can still go

Rebecca: 1:06:37

no, no, no. I have, I have a list of grievances against a lot of people. All right. Do you wanna share the favorite, your favorite thing that ever happened to you at church? Just so we can end a good note.'cause I got in a Camaro in my church parking lot. That was the best thing that ever happened to me at church.

Jamie: 1:06:57

I made out in what they called the cry room. It was where they literally had a little, like soundproofed room, you know what I mean? In the back of the church with some toys where like you could take your kid if your kid was screaming, or if you had a baby and the baby was crying, you needed, or you needed to breastfeed because that has to be in this dark room in the back,

Rebecca: 1:07:17

Cover up your sinning titties.

Jamie: 1:07:19

and people really weren't in there too much. And if they did, if a mom came in, we would leave, but like me and my friends would just go in there and hang out because no one could hear us. And so we could just like, like fool around and like laugh and stuff. But I totally made out with a handful of people in the cry room.

Rebecca: 1:07:39

I love that for you.

Jamie: 1:07:41

at the same time. It's not like we didn't have, yeah, they called it the cry room. I know. I don't know.

Rebecca: 1:07:46

do they do lock-ins ever? Where it was like, let's take a bunch of horny fucking teenagers and lock'em in a church and play games, and then they're also gonna turn not to finger each other in different rooms the whole time.

Jamie: 1:07:57

My, my church didn't do many of those when I was there, but I had a friend's church who did, and I would always go with her to her church and I would always get in trouble at her church lock-ins.

Rebecca: 1:08:10

I'm so proud of you.

Jamie: 1:08:12

Thank you. It's,

Rebecca: 1:08:14

You know what's really fun is having cousins in the same family circle and now being adults and you're like, how is your church? And then just comparing notes because again, sometimes you feel crazy and when you compare notes you're like, oh no. Okay. Not us. We're not crazy.

Jamie: 1:08:33

I would actually love to talk to some people I went to high school with or middle school with about this stuff. But I don't really talk to anybody I went to school with really.

Rebecca: 1:08:43

That's for the best probably. I don't either.

Jamie: 1:08:45

I've also been, but I like, since I keep bringing up Jackie, I kinda wanna reach out to Jackie. She, she was, she was good fun.

Rebecca: 1:08:53

Yeah. I think I talked to one pers, one to two people from high school still, and that's about it. That's fine.

Jamie: 1:09:00

Most of my friends were like, outside of my school. They went to other schools. Oh, that's what I was gonna say. It was back to shaving my head is that my best friend, like we had been best friends for a long time. I went on family vacation with her. Like her mother loved me, her sister loved me. I would spend the night there all the time. She would be at my place all the time. we had been best friends for years. And I shaved my head and her mom contacted my mom and said she didn't feel comfortable with her daughter hanging out with me anymore. And my mom thought that was fucked up. And so my mom talked to her about it, but she couldn't change her mind and she just felt differently. And I think it was just basically,

Rebecca: 1:09:47

I don't like that. Jamie. Girl. She's a bad influence.

Jamie: 1:09:50

I don't even think it was like bad influence. I think she thought that I was like, insane or something, or

Rebecca: 1:09:56

Oh

Jamie: 1:09:57

yeah, because I did that, which is dumb, but I remember that was like, that was so hurtful and that was like so

Rebecca: 1:10:05

God.

Jamie: 1:10:06

up to me. But I think we weren't allowed to see each other or talk to each other for

Rebecca: 1:10:11

Oh.

Jamie: 1:10:11

yeah, for three months or something. Two or three months. And then her mother finally allowed us to see each other again. once my hair grew out. No, I'm just kidding. I don't know. But.

Rebecca: 1:10:21

I have to tell you this real quick. So in college, it was a Sunday and one of my, one of my people on my dorm floor was like, Hey, I'm gonna go to our church. Do you wanna come? And I was like, fuck it. What? Hell, I don't care. Let's go.'cause breakfast is promised. After I went, now the church I went to was PCA Presbyterian, which is evangelical. And there would be a lot of, like, when we did praise songs, there'd be a lot of like hands and worship sometimes falling to our knees. Not a lot, but there, there would be a lot of

Jamie: 1:10:51

in tongues,

Rebecca: 1:10:52

no, this church, however we went to. And they did. And I was so shocked that I actually start and like nervous. I started laughing out loud and then I got like the nervous giggles because I didn't know what was happening and I didn't know what this was. And I was like, and they're just like, Hamal, shaham, shamala. And I'm like, oh. And I couldn't stop because they kept going and it sounded so fucking stupid. And I was like, what is happening? And no one had prepared me. And so I had to invite myself to leave because it was,

Jamie: 1:11:30

that was like, kind of my experience. It's so uncomfortable.'cause I told you, a guy I was with was Pentecostal and so it would take me to church and then also like after church, all these like middle aged ladies. And I was like 18, 19 probably at this time. All these like middle aged ladies would come up to me after and like surely because of how I dressed, because I was still in goth punk Jamie stage, which I'm still in. I'm still in my goth punk era. But I just put on this dress for church. I just put on this dress for church. he then, and they all would come up to me like all sweet and be like, oh, we just. God has called us, or God has compelled us to come, pray over you. May we pray over you. And I would be like,

Rebecca: 1:12:17

We're gonna lay, anoint you with oil and lay

Jamie: 1:12:19

no.

Rebecca: 1:12:19

you. No, you may not.

Jamie: 1:12:22

I was like, I don't even believe in God. I'm just doing this because I'm fucking that guy. I'm like,

Rebecca: 1:12:29

Yeah.

Jamie: 1:12:29

yeah, but people would get up and speak in tongues and I was just like, yep.

Rebecca: 1:12:33

Hamal, shamala. Get the snakes. It's time. I,

Jamie: 1:12:38

Now is the time to worship.

Rebecca: 1:12:42

Anyways, thanks for joining us today. We're, we're gonna play a game and not talk about this anymore, and

Jamie: 1:12:49

Last week we talked about all the things that we, like. This week we just talked about a bunch of things that we hate that are very traumatic.

Rebecca: 1:12:57

all of our trauma. All of our

Jamie: 1:12:59

to the Burnout Collective, where we trauma bond every week, Thursdays 5:00 PM Pacific.

Rebecca: 1:13:06

we have to stress eat m and ms. Thank you for everyone for coming to listen to talk to us or to listen to us talk about, childhood trauma and our super fun religious upbringing. we might have to do a part two.

Jamie: 1:13:22

Yeah. Oh yeah, we definitely will. Vacation burnout school. We

Rebecca: 1:13:26

Mm-hmm.

Jamie: 1:13:27

We'll do it. But yeah, thank you guys so much for hanging out. Thanks for your support. Thanks for staying. We really appreciate you, even if you're just lurking. Like we really appreciate you being here and supporting us in that way.

Rebecca: 1:13:38

Yeah,

Jamie: 1:13:40

lurking chatting, but also if you have not yet, please join our discord.

Rebecca: 1:13:47

It's so much fun.

Jamie: 1:13:49

So please join our Discord one and two, wherever you get your podcasts. It doesn't matter. Follow us, subscribe. It's usually a follow button. And then rate s five stars. We would love actual reviews too. I don't know if every app allows you to do reviews, but, we have no reviews so far and we would love it. We have five stars and we appreciate it, but it'd just be

Rebecca: 1:14:11

That's from me though. Yeah. I, someone else needs to give us five stars. It can't just be me.

Jamie: 1:14:16

It's not

Rebecca: 1:14:17

if we don't wanna review us

Jamie: 1:14:18

I think there's seven, I think there's seven people

Rebecca: 1:14:21

Ooh.

Jamie: 1:14:22

that have rated us.

Rebecca: 1:14:24

All right.

Jamie: 1:14:25

you if you're one of those seven people. Thank you. Only if you're one of those seven people. Do we appreciate you. Just kidding.

Rebecca: 1:14:33

But yeah, we do not have anyone on the slate for next week, but if things change, we will let you know. But we will be here at the very least.

Jamie: 1:14:40

we'll be here. love you guys. Take your med meds. Go get something to eat, drink some water and take care of yourself. Tomorrow's Friday. Have a good weekend.

Rebecca: 1:14:51

God bless.

Jamie: 1:14:51

Alright, I will, we will check you guys next week and see you on Discord.

Rebecca: 1:14:58

bye.