0:00

You're very good at it though. it just seems like it comes 2nd nature to you. You are excellent at talking to people and I am. Not that's why we make a good team,

Jamie: 0:13

I'm Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

0:21

Hey, everybody. Hello. Welcome. Hi. It's Robin. Hey, hey, it's Robin. I don't know why I'm doing this. You're supposed to do this. You can do it. Oh, look, it's Robin. Today we have Robin Sachs Frankel here, who I, that's right, who I have been lucky enough to work with, when I was at, wait, can we say names? Sure. It doesn't exist anymore. I guess it exists, but not without us. So it hardly exists. Yeah. I was just going to say Forbes, but. I guess that works. That works. at my last job, we worked together and definitely whether she meant to or likes it or not, definitely like a very awesome mentor and like leader for me to look up to. I totally meant to totally meant to be all of those things and more. I meant to be a mentor. but. She's also just, and that's kind of a little bit of what we want to talk about today, but my first experience with Robin was when she kind of just told people how it is in a Slack work chat when that was my first week. And I was like, I was like somebody else who like speaks up for what's right. Or asks the right questions that nobody is asking. I wish I remember what it was or that you remembered. It was, it was really something really insightful. It was, it was something that I think was pretty unhinged if I, if I, but it was great nonetheless. And that's when I was like, I like her. mutual back at you. do you want to go ahead and maybe just share with everybody like a little bit about yourself and like your career and where you were, where you at, where you're at now? Sure. clearly I'm a mentor at least to Jamie. That's really the most important thing about just to me because I'm very high maintenance. yeah. Yes, to Jamie, I have no time for other mentees. no, I'm a personal finance writer and editor, been doing it for about a decade and I'm a mom of 2 teen boys. I know we went over this, but I don't know what else to say about myself. I, I'm very happy to be here. And happy to talk about all the things. Yeah, all of them. We're yeah, we're happy for you to be here too. I was going to pull up our doc because I did not have that up. But yeah, we talked yesterday just about, just about kind of just like our outline and what we're going to go over today with Robin. And like I said, the first thing was, when I had talked with her about being on the show, I was like, I don't know, I kind of. Want you to talk about maybe being the person I was probably projecting a lot because it's also me because I'm like you in this aspect but it was very much just kind of like being burnt out like being Being the only one a lot of the time to speak up and especially like the only woman at like in different teams at different companies to ask questions and But yeah, one of the things we had Discuss that we're going to talk about now is that I am a huge question asker. I don't think it's because I'm trained as a journalist. I think it's just I used to asking questions. Right? I think it is crazy. This is exactly what we spoke yesterday. If someone has the answer, why not just ask the question? Like I'm not, I know there's a lot to be said for figuring things out on your own. And that's fine. And you're like, okay, I have to figure out how to get on this podcast. And I did have a little outside help, but like just certain things like that, You know, or figuring out how to work something new or how to put something together or whatever. But when someone has the answer, literally, do I put a hyphen here? there's so many different rules, for example, on a copy desk. And then the rules change because AP style changes, just little things like that. If someone has the answer, why wouldn't you ask? And I think a lot of people just don't ask. And they're more reactive than proactive. And I'm really not saying I'm proactive in every area of my life. But in work, I certainly Try my best to just get an answer. I think that's more efficient. You know, I'm kind of, I have a lot of like mental energy at work and I might call it hyper, but I just, I just don't see the issue with speaking up. I'm not afraid to speak up. I'm going to ask the question. I ask a lot of questions, even if there's not answers. I've learned to. For better for worse camp it down a little bit because a lot of people do not respond well to that energy. I have learned. I feel like they're either threatened or I don't go ahead. I think Rebecca was. It wasn't a men men have weaponized question asking place where it's like, they don't want to do any of the work. And so they just ask them, they know what the answer is, but with Robin, it sounds like you're asking questions to, like, have a collaboration or to, to, have a conversation versus just oh, I don't want to look it up. It's you know, I would like to talk to you about that. You are the knowledge expert. I, I don't know why people get so nonplussed by that. I think sometimes I ask so, so many questions that people don't have the time for it, or they just. Feel like annoyed by all the questions. I'm just guessing. I don't know what every single person I fire questions at, how they're with, how they're responding. I think sometimes people just deflect'cause they don't wanna do the work answer or they just don't have the answer, you know, or ask so many questions. They're like, you know, slow your roll. Just why don't you try to do something on your own and get the answer? I don't know. I don't really know. you know, as we had spoken about before, I went to All Girls School for 13 years where there was not one iota of being taught to be quiet. It was like it was very cool to speak up the people who spoke up the most that was like super encouraged and wonderful and That's cool. I skew extroverted anyway yeah, I mean for introverts it was amazing because they could speak up and not So weird about it as extroverts like me, it's great. I just assumed that I could speak up anywhere I went. And then I remember I went to college and freshman year. It was the first time I'd ever been in class with boys. Obviously I'd been around boys. I didn't live this weird female only world or anything just at school, but, the girls did not speak up in class. It was the weirdest thing. nobody raised their hand. No one was enthusiastic. Everyone just kind of like head down. it was really eyeopening. Yeah, it was about just about, I don't like muffled voices. People don't want to stand out, which I think is, they're afraid to speak up because they don't want to stand out. And I think that's not just a teenage thing, although it's pretty common among teenagers. And I think that's age appropriate, but adults don't want to be the squeaky wheel. They don't want to, you know, they don't want to be the, yeah, that's the troublemaker. The annoying 1 or the 1 asking too many questions or call too much attention to themselves or, you know, all the things that. Yeah. I do without thinking, I do the exact same thing. and I'm an introvert too, but I definitely can be, I still think I'm probably like a. 70, 30 or 80, 20 or something like that. But, you're not an introvert at work, but at work we're all remote and we're all just screen based like this. There was no like small talk. It was like purposeful talk. and it was in brief bursts, you know, if it was once or twice a week, that was it. you know, it was a, it's a unique scenario. I wonder too, if it's from pretty early on, women are taught to, you know, not speak out, not make a lot of noise or we're annoying or we're asking too many questions. Yeah. Like without being encouraged, which is amazing. Sorry. I interrupted you. Yeah, no, but I was going to say what, what you were describing, I think bucks, the trend of what, you know, we usually see. And so. I don't know. Have you noticed like when, when you get to a workplace and you start doing that, have you noticed that you kind of encourage that I think I'm usually the loudest person wherever I've worked or go in the most. Outspoken and it's not a compliment. Sometimes I should shut my pie hole. but I definitely feel you should never shut your pie hole. Never. I'm serious. I'm not okay. sometimes it's just not appropriate to speak up all the time. Sometimes I need to have a little patience and wait and listen, because someone might have been about to say the question. I was I just asked. I have a little bit of a patience problem, I think, but, I just, I don't know. I don't know some of its nature and some of its nurture, I think. but I never, yeah, I think if I had gone to school with boys growing up, I might have had a little bit of that, outspokenness hampered down a little bit just because of, you know, gender norms and, and all, you know, all the things. That's really interesting. The way you grew up without being tamped down. that's experienced. Most people I know don't have. Yeah. I don't, I didn't realize how weird it was until I tell people I went to all girls school for 13 years and they're like, really? I'm like, yeah, I wore a uniform for 12 of those years. Just not kindergarten. I loved it. I had a great time. I loved uniforms. It was so easy not to have to think about what to wear. I would wear a uniform now if I could. if you want to go change, like, we'll wait if you want to go change. Oh, yeah. I don't have the uniforms anymore. I don't think they'd fit me either. I am certainly not a gender studies expert. I, you know, and I don't, I don't even know that I have super strong feelings about all that stuff. I just know how I was raised and how it is. What the path that I have taken and it is a very loud 1 well, but unconsciously we, when we were talking yesterday, you said, 1 of the things that drive to do is, you want to know how to balance a check, but you want to know where things and for you, it almost seems like this is. I don't want to say knowledge is power because that's so gross, but maybe, in power, I think, you know, anything. Super empowering to work in personal finance, don't you? you feel you know, so much more about personal finance than, than even, than even people who have been like, maybe, I don't know, managing their personal finances since a very, very young age or whose parents taught them well, because I know a heck of a lot about just from being in this industry, I didn't know that I would know the ins and outs of balance transfer cards, or I don't know, even just a high yield. Even like high yield CDs or just things that like you don't usually talk about or care But most people know the very basics and I feel like I have very empowering You know the difference if someone starts talking to me about refinancing their mortgage I could actually have an intelligent conversation with them about it because I follow these things as opposed to alright, that's cool Good luck. I hope you get a good rate. I know what a good rate is And I know, I don't know, the difference between an arm and a, you know, jumbo mortgage and a, you know, just all the, all the boring adulting things. I find it very empowering. I don't like to feel left, I don't want to say it makes me feel smarter, but it's definitely nice to know the things, right? The things that make you do better at life financially. Yeah, you're not passive about it. Yeah, I know nothing about sports and I don't care to know a lot about sports, but when I'm around a bunch of people watching sports, like my kids and my husband and they make talk about these plays and that, I'm like, that must be very empowering for my kids as they've grown up to be able to talk so deeply and intelligently about something that they enjoy and with their peers and with their father. And, you know, so that's kind of how I feel about personal finance, but it's more useful. Yeah, I always say that yeah, I just, I stumbled into it because like when my first personal finance job recruited me and I literally told them, I don't know anything about finance. I don't have any, I was doing like tech and app stuff, and games and stuff like that. And I was like, I don't know anything about finance. And they're like, Oh no, no, no, you can learn, you know? And I had to learn very quickly and I did. And then I feel like, Yeah. After a few years, all of a sudden, I'm like, I'm kind of a personal finance expert, you know, like I'm quoted by people as being a personal finance expert. It's amazing. I didn't know. I didn't know anything about credit card. I started Bankrate and they were like, we're going to start credit cards vertical. And I started writing about credit cards, Bankrate, and I became. They're a credit cards person and here I am, you know, 8 years later, I'm the credit cards expert and, it makes me wonder what else could I be an expert in if I were to dedicate a lot of time to learning about it? who has that kind of time? Twitch, you'd be streaming on Twitch every week. I could be. I could have multiple Twitch channels. Yeah, I applied myself. You sure could. You sure could. I don't know what I would do with them. I don't know why you would have multiple. I think you should just have one. Oh, but Robin's like, I can have a ton. I could be on Twitch all day long, switching away, putting up all kinds of artwork of little raccoons and trash cans and coming soon. I could do that, but I could pick my own animal. Yeah. Definitely good. I reached out to me and was like, Hey, there's a job at Student Loan Hero, and I was like, eh, no, no, I don't do money. And she's no, it's a great company. You have to join. I blew her off two to three times, and finally she was just like, get a fucking Suze Orman book, Sue Orman. Wait, who told you to apply for it? Cat. Oh, okay. That sense? Yeah. Yeah. I've met her. Yeah. Card con. I think I know who she is. Yeah, she's a longtime freelancer. I don't do money, but things and because I didn't, I don't know anything about it. I didn't know student loan. Hero was your 1st finance job, but I guess maybe I did know that. It's awesome. Oh, that's okay. Yeah, so here we are, we just kind of fell into it. I guess here we are personal finance experts. This is how it's done. We just fell in there. I'm just kidding years of careful study and application has gotten us to where we are. But obviously you have an affinity for it, or you don't stay with it, right? you wouldn't, you wouldn't work in something that you were super bored by and couldn't stand, or I mean you would, but then you would be actively seeking to make a pivot and find a topic you enjoyed. I, I love Rebecca's face right now. I don't know if it's like the oppositional defiance disorder in me, but I really like finding the, the scammy stuff or like the loopholes and like trying to pick apart oh. I actually mean this, this, and this. It's not really oppositional disorder, but a lot of credit card, quote unquote, hackers, they are engineers, or they have engineer like minds, and they, Approach everything with how can I extract the maximum value and they're really into geeking out on the spreadsheets and the, and it's, I think the reward of getting more than what that card was intended to give them is more satisfying than the trips. For some people, just the idea of, it's no different. Look, when you find something you really like on sale at a store and you feel like you've got such a great deal, it's the same thing. It's just multiplied by multiple cards and understanding these complex travel rewards and all that stuff. Like the finance world also has felt really gated or just maybe not like we're inclusive and I like being a part of it because the more I've worked here, the more women I've known have joined here. Is it used to feel like, Oh, it's just for men. But Being in the middle of it and actually almost Rebecca, you keep cutting out a lot. God, I'm so sorry. you don't need it in your mouth, but you definitely need to be closer to it. This is better so much better. Thank you. Okay. Okay. No, dear God. No, I'm going to stick with being loud and talking. Is that better? Perfect. I do see a much larger number of women getting into personal finance. I can. Okay. I thought, first of all, my team is half women. I think if not more, I don't even, I'm not a minority being female working where I work, which is absolutely glorious, but also, I can probably name half a dozen personal finance experts that are women, you know, on TV and with books and all those other things, and I would so much rather take financial advice. From a woman than a man. Well, that was kind of a blanket statement Let me walk that back a little bit. But as a woman, I typically find advice from other women more relatable than and reliable For personal finance, I don't know if it's more reliable because someone's a woman. I just think Yes, definitely more reliable when it's coming from the 3 of us in particular 3 of us. It's been fact checked. nothing has ever been fact checked and vetted and verified and not by freelancers. The opposite of whatever the meta is doing. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. It is nothing like an AI overview. Not 1 bit. I feel like that's a kind of like a good segue. And I know you were talking about this a little bit, but, yesterday you were mentioning to us about like how some of your friends, you were even saying like some of my divorced friends kind of don't know what to do and. You, have this knowledge and it is so empowering and so you, want your friends and, people around you and other women in general to be, like, empowered and to kind of know more. I, I answer a lot of credit card questions from friends. People will text me, should I get this card? Or they'll ask me, like, we go out to dinner and I pass judgment on everybody when the bill comes. I see what they put. I can't help it. Is it like a ritual? Is it like a thing where they're like, okay, Robin, judge our cards? No, but I do have a neighbor who thinks it is the funniest thing that he can show, talk, ask me about a credit card and I know the rewards rate and the annual fee on the card. Robin, listen. Okay. it's different than baseball cards and stats, right? if you're dealing with something all the time, you just know it. Robin is, she was known as the credit card, encyclopedia. I don't know about that. It's a lot of pressure. Oh, no, that's what we called you. No, that's what we called you. We're not going to quiz you. That's terrible. We would never. Okay, cool. But, you can, I don't know how well. She's at the top of her head. it's insane. Grace and I were always like, let's ask Robin. She just knows. We know she just knows. Because I have been writing about credit cards for her. A little over eight years. Yeah. it's, you know, it's, that's all I do all day professionally is think about credit. sometimes I cover other topics, tangent, you know, personal finance topics, but primarily, you know, it's Anything that you follow, you probably could name a bunch of stats about a bunch of video games that you play or something, or like characters in your favorite book, and you wouldn't even think twice about it. You could go on and on about fucking Lord of the Rings for forever. I don't know a thing about Lord of the Rings. I've never read it. Me either. I don't know anything about Harry Potter, and I just smile and laugh at everyone else when someone makes some Harry Potter joke. I'm like, oh Quidditch, oh yeah. I don't, I'm not even sure, I think that's the game with the brooms, but I don't know. You know, so I'm saying, so it's, it may, I don't know, to me it's just part of my job. So I'm glad, it's a good party trick. Marina, Marina in the chat is already, feeling empowered. She said, I felt like such a badass when I made a bitchy comment at my mom's bank about the interest on her savings account And the dude was like, Oh, we have a better account. And so she got 100 times more in interest because of my bitchy comment. Yes. Speak up. Yeah. She went from like a 0. 05 to a, well, nothing as a 5 percent APY right now. I don't. I don't think the highest yield encyclopedia and this, this isn't even credit cards. I like this stuff. I feel very empowered. I wish I had been like this at 18, you know, when I was opening accounts and things like that. When I took out student loans and had no idea what that meant, you know. They fucking give loans to children all the time. That was my right. let me thank goodness. You can't open credit cards as a college to these to go around and give out the t shirt. yes, I would go to the campus and be like, hey, he wants a pizza or a t shirt. I had so many, like, college shirts and my credit scores in the 800s just because I would open credit cards so when I was in college, they, some kind of American express that doesn't even exist anymore had a deal. Everyone signed up. You got a free companion ticket when you sign up for the card. it was like, here, have a free airline ticket or maybe it's just a free ticket. Cause I feel like I would use it to fly home. And it was crazy with the stuff they used to give away to get people to sign up. But back to what you're saying is I do have, yeah, Friends who really don't know anything about personal finance. And then if God forbid something happens, their husband or they get divorced, they just, I can't even imagine how overwhelming that would be to have to start your life without even really knowing what you need to know just to live, you know, not, not to even talk about the emotional, you know, there's the emotional component to that. But then there's just I don't even know how, like a budget. I don't even know what I can afford. I don't even know. I don't have any credit, you know, like stuff like that. Like you're in your forties, you don't have any credit, you know, or maybe you have a little bit of credit cause you're an authorized user and your husband's credit card. And I just, you don't know what you don't know. And now that I know what I know, I I'm like scared for people who don't know. There's a lot of no's in one sentence. That's, that's how I feel too. Possibly. I just feel like people are too, too intimidated to ask because they realize I don't, they don't know what they don't know. And then people get scared to ask and they get intimidated. If I. Not me, but, if you sound like you're too smart about something to somebody who knows nothing. They get too scared to ask. Yeah, because then they're like, it's a stupid question or they're going to like, or it's the wrong question or I'm not going to word it. Right? That's 1 thing. I always would tell my. Direct reports as a manager too. It's such like a stupid cliche saying, but like literally for me like, oh, this is probably a stupid question. I'm like, no, no question is a fucking stupid question. Ask the question, whatever it is. I'm not going to judge you. I agree with that philosophy. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I, I, I wish I could empower all the women I know to just know something. You know, about themselves. you know, a generation ago, like my parents generation, women knew nothing, very few women knew anything. And the ones who did were really stand out. So then if their husbands passed before them, they wouldn't barely even knew how to write a check. My dad's like always bringing that up, like to my mom. So he's, he's trying to get her to learn more. Cause she's like, Oh, I wouldn't know what to do. if your dad dies before me, I won't know. What to do with this or this or this. but I also think she's more capable than she realizes because she was, she, she's the executor of my grandfather's estate. And so she had to do a lot for that. And like he, he passed away a couple years ago, but even before that, there was like so much that she did for that and dealt with finances. And my grandfather had the same. stockbroker very into stock. Same stockbroker as, charlie Munger. Charlie Munger. I think that was it. They had the same broker, almost as well known. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Mm-hmm And they both died actually within the same like month, same year. Oh, wow. Okay. Charlie Munger died not so long ago, maybe two years ago, a couple years ago. Yeah. Yeah. recent enough that I remember he was all over the news and they kept airing like talks on CNBC that, anyway, Becky Quick had with Charlie Munger. I got really lucky because my grandpa was a bank manager. And yeah, he took me to buy my first car. He taught me how to go through the contract and figure out what I was paying what I wasn't paying. Is it going out Jamie? Yeah, like bad. Fuck me Is that our yeah talk I'll let you know so anyway, so Yeah, find the car But then he was the one who told me just open a credit card use it pay it off Hold on to it and when it was time to buy our first house or whatever we needed the my credit score was great because he taught me that and That that power. Yeah, I have my kids. My kids have had authorized user cards since they were 13. Yeah, same My dad did that for us and I think yeah, I think that that's one thing that a parent can do That's like such a great thing. that's still on my account, you know Yeah, do it and and even if you do don't give the card to your kids. Yeah Do it. So they had it and then they piggyback and then, yeah, so empowerment. Yeah. Wonderful thing. This is so off the rails from what we had. I thought we were going to talk about. It's fine. No. Yeah. We just talk about what comes up is fine too. yeah, we make an outline just to kind of like have some stuff in there, but we do whatever we do whatever on this show. Oh, I was gonna say, along with, you know, we're talking about, empowering women, but you were talking about, even just empowering your kids, that's something that people have been yelling from the rooftops forever, is that, in middle school and high school, especially, we, we need courses, personal finance courses, financial independence courses, something, especially as these kids are about to go to College and maybe take out what is a law in several states that, the personal, personal finance class is required. I don't know if it actually is kicked in everywhere. I believe in Florida starts next year. Like, a lot was passed 2 years ago or 3 years ago. and then it, but when it's passed, it doesn't necessarily kick in right away. I actually, I didn't do this. This past fall, but the previous 2 falls, I taught personal finance to high school kids. At a small private school one of my my kids used to go So I taught intro to personal finance to high schoolers and it was yeah, it was I loved it I didn't like balancing it with a regular full time job because I had to leave work and go do this thing for 45 minutes to an hour and then come back and do my regular work and it was It was just a little jarring, which is why I didn't do it this past fall, but, it was so cool. these kids literally went from zero. I was like, even if you only know the difference between checking in a savings account and that a credit score is important, that's more than 90 percent of your peers. Yeah, you know, so it was just, and obviously they learned a little more than that. I don't know how much they retained, but that was really fun for me. That's awesome. I didn't know you did that. That's really cool. Yeah, I wish I could. Unfortunately, the class was at 2. 30. So it's just a terror. If it was first thing in the morning, I would have done it again. Or maybe at the end of the day where you, I was just, it's so stressful. Were you working remotely then? Or yeah, I was working at Forbes and you sat and, it was just too crazy. Cause I had to be at the class in person. Yeah, so it was just it was, it was nuts. I talk about burnout. It was like Nuts, like when that semester is over. I was like, huh? Yeah, thank God not because the teaching was hard It was like literally the the making sure I was dressed for school because I'm always just shirts at home and then driving there and traffic and then Finding a parking spot and then doing the class and then coming home and then jumping back and whatever work I had and then thinking about my lessons ahead and then grading the papers, but also doing my regular work. It was. Madness. It does sound like madness. Ban running the household and managing two kids. That's, yeah. it really was like, like my friends were like, after I did it the first year, my friends were like, please don't ever do it again. And then I did do it again. What can I, let's say, just to spite them, first of all. You said I could, said I couldn't survive, I'll show you, I'll explode. they paid me. It's hard to, it's hard to say no to something you like where you get paid. Yeah. It's just everything that's swirled around those 45 minutes was like. Not was like nuts. It was no way to live too bad. I really liked it Maybe I'll go back to it at some point. I like that for you. Yeah, I wish you could find find a place where It's not stressful and it won't burn you out. Yeah, if I could do it at 8 in the morning It would be great or 9 in the morning even but to do it like in the middle of the workday It was it was just nuts you should reach out to them and tell them that be like, hey, I will do this But it has to be at 9. yeah, there It was the period that they had it open for electives, but, and I loved that school. That's where my school K through eight. So I had a special place in my heart for the school and community friends of that community. I don't know. I just, I miss it. But that was like, you know, sometimes I do very few mature things and choosing not to do that was a mature thing, not to do it anymore because it was making me too crazy. And the money wasn't worth the crazy. Yeah, you have to a lot of a point. Yeah, I know it makes me sound so mature. I can't believe it I'm so glad we could be here for Robins for my reckoning maturing. Yeah, Robins reckoning my mature moment. Ooh Robins reckoning the alliteration. There's something about it I like it Robins reckoning. That's gonna be the title of my first album What I think we talked about with you working Is that only a twitch you've moved from, a management position and you're not managing anymore. And so can you kind of talk about sort of that switch and how it feels to not have to be on anymore? And moving up and just being able to to be at work. Have you noticed a difference? Do you feel calmer in your life? What's that? so our industry, you know, it's. Including both you and our industry was absolute madness in the last quarter of 2024 and I got moved right before really start to get get nuts So I, I have very mixed feelings about it, but I was so busy as a lead editor, for this project I was working on where I worked with Jamie. it was like nuts and you, and you adjust to that, that becomes your new normal to juggle 30 balls in the air and that it stops feeling crazy. It just feels like normal at work. And then that was very rap that very rapidly changed when I was transitioned back to a writing role. I hadn't been in a writing role in like over three years because I was a writer and then I was a deputy editor, then I was a lead editor, then I got moved to a lead editor somewhere else. So it was really like, almost like tire screeching. We're used to like chugging along and then all of a sudden you're in a school zone and you gotta go really slow. And it was, it was really hard for me for a lot of reasons. There was just a lot of emotion around what was going on in the industry and the abject fear of getting laid off. that's a very and that was Very scary for a long time and it's very stressful to live in that kind of fear. Yeah I mean it always exists. I'm not i'm not layoff proof, but when the industry is totally I don't want to say destroyed by google, but it kind of was affiliate person. Anyway, So now I'm in, I'm in a much better place than I was, in terms of having much less madness. Instead of juggling 20 balls at work, I'm juggling maybe 2, which isn't hard at all. Anyone can juggle 2 balls. Sometimes that, that's a big relief too, to go from that to that. No, it wasn't a relief. it was, I like to be busy and I like to be stimulated and I trend towards add a little bit. it was really hard for me to just dial it back like that. But what it is allowed me to do, like now I'm on the other side of it. And what I've realized is I have all this opportunity to take the headspace. That's not. Exhausted after the work day and expand and try other things. Look at me, I'm on Twitch, you know, like I started, I joined a women's networking group and I'm trying to work on building a personal platform. I have no idea what that's going to look like or what that means, but that's part of the process of trying these new things. And I'm doing, I'm trying to make posts on LinkedIn and all, you know, all the social things about various things and see how that feels to be more, more of a video person and not just like typing away at the keyboard. so that was a very long winded way of answering, but isn't this what a podcast is for just talking, talking, yeah. I didn't like it and now I have grown to embrace it. So I'm still really, really busy, but instead of busy doing the things I have to do now, I have more time to do the things I want to do, which is awesome. Do you feel like, do you feel like you have a, like a weird sense of what work actually is like working this high paced and so I came from startups and so I, I didn't really understand like what actual work was versus startup work or remote work. do you, did you find like you kind of have to that work basic? Once I came to Forbes advisor, I've been in like, start, I feel like I've been in startup mode for five years. Forbes was there like just six months after it launched. So it was me, I was the only writer and I had two editors and there were maybe 10 of us in total on the editorial team. And it was like that for a long time. And then after I think three ish years, I got moved to this startup. White label project. And then I came along. That was Matt, that's when you came along and everything changed for the better. But that was, that was more of a startup than Forbes Advisor was. That was a startup, a crazy frantic pace where if we had been in an office we would have been sleeping under our desks. I mean it was like nuts. Like desk hammocks. Have you seen them? That's true, your feet, not your head, right? No, they have little hammocks that you can actually like sleep in. Like string under your desk? If you're tiny. But you met oh. I don't know, I think of George Costanza on Seinfeld when he made a like desk, a nook under his desk when he worked for the Yankees. That's what I think. Or there's a picture circulating of one of the guys who founded Yahoo sleeping under his desk. I don't know if it was Philo or Yang or whatever. And I'm like, but that's what it would have been like, Jamie, if we had had an office. it was that intense. I was doing that just at home, sleeping under my desk. Yeah, I. Like really I'm loving that I have this much. I didn't love it. And now I'm at a place where I love it I really love having the mental headspace to pursue things that I enjoy because I don't think I had it for five years Oh, yeah, I was just like head down work I'm still I still working hard, but I don't I'm not juggling multiple things Yeah, and I didn't realize how much that had burned me out. I just didn't Learn anything. I wasn't really learning much new outside or being like creative that's what we talk about a lot on the show is oh, yeah until rebecca and I started meeting About doing this. it was about doing something else, but then we did this It like unlocked something in me because like I was always like i'm not a creative person I'm, just like i'm a writer. Okay, and i'm an editor. Great. Like i'm just not creative and it's just flipped a switch in my brain and like creativity just started pouring out of me and I was doing things that like I was really enjoying doing like doing like some design work and making graphics and stuff for social and it was great so it's just so cool nice to yeah and I was just appalled because I was like oh I just thought I wasn't a creative person no I was just burnt out as fuck and That's all I had time for, was just that, and keeping myself and my cats alive, you know? There's not, as a working mom, there's not a lot left over between work and family, and what, generally what little is left over, I also try to like, maintain connections with friends. You know, like that's important to me too. I, I wouldn't, I don't know where I'd be without some of my friends. they've been there, you know, some of my closest friends are absolutely part of my support system, but friendships don't exist in a vacuum. You have to give them love and life too. and usually as a working mom, it's like work and family or take most of my energy. And then what little is left over is your friends. So like, where's the, where's the time for me. and now I have a little mental bandwidth for me and, But it took me a really long time to get here. you know, I switched to being a writer in July and it's now March and now I'm like, you know, you have to, it takes a long time to unwind when you're used to running at a hundred miles an hour. And I think I'm starting to unwind. Yeah. Yeah, I, I get that. I worked at a creation, a creative agency before where I am now, and for 2 years, anything creative that was that came from me. Either a was it was wrong told it was wrong or be it wasn't actually for me. It was for someone else. So to back you up, I just I'm not really. But the amount of freedom I've had working with you and not having someone behind. Shit. It's amazing, like, how much freer you actually feel, but, oh, I am, I am creative, it's just when you figure out, you don't have anyone, you guys can say whatever you, whatever you want. I mean, that's, that's a freedom you don't have at work. You can't say whatever you want. I mean, I can say a card sucks, or I wouldn't say sucks. I can say this card is terrible for just about everybody. That's not really freedom. That's my job to give an honest review, right? I can't. there's plenty that I can't say, you can't say it because it's inappropriate or it's, I don't know, you know, like you just, you have the freedom to do whatever you want with this. there are very few places, very few outlets in life where you have the freedom to do whatever you want without reprisal. obviously, you can't offend somebody on purpose or you know, I mean, you can, within the, within the confines of normal society, you have freedom. No, no one's telling you it has to be written or said or spoken or designed or look a certain way. That's cool. I do want to twitch now. Yeah. Yeah, no, and, and, again, without this, I don't think I ever would have recovered any of that creativity back, or, or anything. this has been super healing, and I think as far as competence goes has been like, oh, I can do a thing and I do know how it's been great for that. Yeah, for sure. yes, anytime you try something out of your comfort zone and you don't fail, I think it's super empowering. That's, I'm, I'm enjoying making these videos, even though I look at them, I'm like, why did I just make that? I don't have anything to say. I'm just talking. Tell us about your video journey. tell us how that kind of came about. I literally just started. my, my boss, she's my boss, I don't know, my, my friend at work who also happens to be two pay grades above me on my team, who I consider a friend outside of work. she started doing this video challenge and she was maybe a week or two into it. I'm like, that's cool. And I keep seeing other people in our personal finance space. They're all making videos. And I'm like, why don't I do this? It seems so easy. I have so much to say. And then I sat, started doing it. I'm like. I know that I have that much to say, like it gets really weird, it's very different for me to have a live conversation with you guys than it is to stare into a camera and talk uninterrupted, like back and forth is much easier than talking basically to yourself. and so it's been very challenging because I say stuff and I record it and then I re record it and then I do it like 10 times and I think it's right because people, you only, people are gonna watch, you know, you want to make a good impression and you want to make sure you're being effective and then you look at it like, I don't have anything to say. You know, I don't have a message. I don't have a platform that I'm trying to get people to go visit or a product I'm trying to sell, or I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing. And I realized, that's part of my challenge, right? I'm making videos. I'm trying to include some information kind of about credit cards, but I'm not just part of my journey is I'm not just a one trick pony. I'm not just a credit card writer and editor. Like I have other skills and in this economy, I think it's important to. Not rely to have multiple streams of income, so I'm not sure what that looks like for me yet, but that's my video journey That's my why and you're learning new skills. Yeah, you're learning new skills skills. I'm learning to ask my son for help and Hopefully by osmosis some of these skills I will pick up, but I, I'm starting to have yeah, it doesn't seem that hard when he's doing it. I don't know, but I realize it's sparking creativity in me. I'm getting an idea for a video and what I want it to look like. An idea will come to me like, oh, this is how I want it to look and whether or not I execute it isn't even necessarily the point. It's just that I'm getting ideas for ways to express myself. In different ways, and I'm like, this is fun, even if only my friends are liking it and they're like, yeah, you go make those videos. We love them. That's cool. That's enough for me. You know, like I'm not. You know, it's, I'm certainly not doing anything unique. There's a lot of people that make videos, but I have not made videos before. And I find it exciting and empowering and cool. And it makes me laugh most of the time. And that's, that's why we do this because we, it makes us laugh. If you enjoy it, as long as you enjoy it, you should do it. And if it's not hurting anybody, it's not hurting anybody for me to make videos. And it makes me laugh and feel good. hopefully I'm imparting some wisdom in there. Hopefully I'm adding something to the conversation. If not, I will be at some point because I'll get better. You said yesterday, all the time you spend with making stuff or doing stuff for other people like dinner, laundry, that kind of thing, you're doing something just for you, which is so cool. you don't have to give it to anyone. It's for you. You're totally right. The same comment I just gave you guys about the podcast. I guess that applies to me. You're right. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for that. That's important. Yeah, it's just for me. so I'm enjoying that and also follow her on TikTok and Instagram. Yeah. And LinkedIn and yeah, follow me on Facebook, but I post the same video everywhere. I'm not at a place where I can make multiple videos, but, it's really interesting because now. And again, I've only been doing this for maybe two or three weeks, and maybe one video week, sometimes two, but it is, now everything is inspiration for me. I could make a video about this. today's International Women's Day. I was like, I could make a video about this. And I did. And, but there's a lot of thought in there. what's the background going to be? How am I going to make it? What am I going to say? What am I, I don't want to just say happy international women's day. What's my point. Yeah, that's cool. I'd like slowing down. See, I'm not, I got really hyper talking about something. I was interested. Yeah, I can hear it. Yes. And this is how I am at work talking about credit cards. I know I missed a blah. I missed you too. I miss you in the workplace. You know, I have to say, even though work is not your family and because your family won't fire you and work. Here we go. I have made, I have made, but I have made so, met so many fabulous, wonderful people through my jobs over the years, like people that I truly consider friends outside of work. and it's just. You know, it's been such a nice benefit of my jobs that no one could have predicted or expected. Obviously, not everybody is my friend, but I've been very lucky that I've never been on it. I shouldn't say never, ever, ever, but since I've been in the last 5 years, I've never had to work closely with someone or I'm just like, you know, and that's just been a gift. I have so many. Personal phone numbers, like Jamie, you know, like people in my phone from work. I'm sorry, you don't have my number? Yes. No, but I'm saying like for a remote team, I don't think that happens a lot where everybody can, you know, we have all these WhatsApp groups where we can talk freely outside of work and connect and share. And it's really, I'm very grateful for it, you know, cause it's very easy to work remotely, zero work friends. And I feel like. That's like how I know both of you and also women, especially coming over to Forbes, that was one thing I really loved about the prospect of working there was there were so many women in like manager and leadership roles, more than normal, and I was like, Oh, thank God, mom. Might have been more because of that. Patrick did say, even if you fail at something, at least you have the experience. And, and I think, yeah, I think that's like big, even Pat, for both you and I who are looking for jobs right now, I even think about that for, jobs. Cause even if you learn more about the job and you find out that Oh, I actually don't think this is going to work for me or for whatever reason, but maybe you have an interview instead of canceling it, just do the interview anyway, because it's like, The experience and it's not going to like harm anything you learned from it, you know, yeah I was in between I was interviewing for when I was interviewing for Forbes adviser I was also interviewing for a similar position somewhere else, but that somewhere else was much more Corporatey and this was more like a startup and I was I was like, this corporate thing is just not for me. I don't want to have to put on makeup to get on a zoom call. I don't want to have to, you know, I want to just be able to sit at home with my t shirt and yoga pants with my hair in a bun. And so I went through the process with them. I was very lucky. I had the choice between two jobs, but, yeah, I was like, okay, it's important to know what you don't want and what you don't like, because how else do you know what you do like? And interview them is like a big one that I'm always reminding people of, you want to interview them to make sure that, that company is going to be a good fit for you. Yeah, although you don't ever really know until you're in it. Very true. I actually, that's one reason I almost didn't want to apply to the position with Forbes because, so it's Forbes advisor, which is like baby Forbes, But, all I thought of was Forbes. It's Forbes. It's a big corporation. So like, all I thought was just like stodgy. White then, honestly, that's all I thought about and I was like, I don't know what they're known to be. Yeah. I'm like, is it like, is it going to be like that? I don't know. but then after interviewing with Karina and like other people there, they stressed that they stress that no, this is different. This is more of like a startup feel. And I was like, okay. And I was kind of put at ease. But that was one reason I kind of was thinking maybe I didn't want to go there, but I didn't even meet you until. The side project because we were on a different team. Yeah, I wasn't there that long Okay. Yeah, and it gets a little siloed too. I don't know Oh, yeah I don't know many people on the other teams only the people that have been there for a really long time who we used to Work closely together, you know, yeah and then me trying to do little like happy hour gossip chit chats with All the lead editors and then me not showing up Because I forgot I would do that all the time. Robin would be like, Jamie, come to the chat today. And I was like, oh, no, but Rob, you ask questions all the time. I ask questions to people who I kind of want to know, but I'm not on their team and it's just kind of like a little in. They know thing, you know, they're sending you pictures of their kids Halloween costume. I don't know. It just kind of happens. That's so very specific. That is so specific. it's amazing. You came up with that. I think at one point there was an initiative to try to have a virtual coffee with people in different teams, but everything was just paused for like four months, everything was just not normal for a long time. I don't think anyone had the mental energy to like connect with a person who they might not ever be working with again. I think I should resurrect that. Can we please tell you about our coffee dates with the Russian engineers at student loan here? Yes, please, please, because they were the funniest and worst thing I've ever gone to because not only are they Russian, they're engineers. when you ask them questions, because, oh, also, they're trying to learn English. So they're practicing questions. what's your favorite color? And they go gray. Oh, what's your favorite food? Whatever my wife makes. And it was just excruciating. Like talking to a robot. Yeah. Yeah, so for my favorite color is gray, whatever my wife, what are your hobbies, gray? What do you like to do? He goes, I don't know. Russia. Everything is gray. I like to do these awkward coffee chats. Obviously he was forced to do it. That's so yeah. that's 1 thing is that's what I was going to say about those is every time I've had that and the company has been like, let's do this. You know, it's always very forced and awkward, Yeah. It's a nice idea. Yeah, but you guys do like the credit card, like the credit card chat, you know? Yeah, we have, we have a meeting once a week, but, yeah, there's a lot of chat there. We have, we have another chance. it's been kind of quiet lately, but yes, we can, I can easily reach if I'm talking to someone for work purposes, it easily also includes some personal chit chat and banter. You know, I've met everyone on the team in person. More than once at this point, I think, which is cool, but, you know, I love remote work and I don't understand all the uproar about, you know, oh, you miss so much when you're not in the office. I'm like, I look at all know who these people are. I don't know who these people are though. they must be people. I don't know. They're not people in our industry because our industry is all about staring at a screen. Right And I just, I know when I used to work, when I used to work at Bankrate, I would drive very far every day to go to an office and it was great because it was me back at work and I'm not working for the office at Bankrate. I went to the office at Bankrate in Palm Beach Gardens, not New York, and it was 45 minutes there and an hour home. Oh God. And my kids were little and it was just such dead time for me in the car. And I was like, these are two hours of my life. I could be, you know, like my kids are eating chicken nuggets every single night or hot dogs because I wasn't home in time to make dinner. And my husband doesn't know how to cook, whatever. It was just, it was, it was a great experience to have that job because then it led to me getting my next job, which is remote. And, and I learned about credit card, but working from home, I'm so much more productive. I'm just more productive, you know, same, you know, and I don't feel like I'm missing out on the personal connection part because I'm making connections. how many people in that office? I think I made 2 friends at since I've been at Forbes advisor. I've made maybe 20 friends, you know, it just because you're around people doesn't mean you're going to connect with them. But yeah, but Jamie, it's not, I got rid of their best people ever. It's not'cause of that. See, Robin was even there longer than me and, but anytime we ended a meeting like people or like our manager would be like, Jamie, you have anything else? it was always me. They would always be like, Jamie, do you have anything? And I sometimes I was like, Robin asked more questions than me Like, why is it always me questions? I do, but it was always me, man. My, my favorite thing to do. Yeah. My favorite thing to do in those meetings is just like, when they're like, okay, got you a little time back, everybody like leave early. And I'd be like, wait, everybody and everyone would be like, you know, and I'd be like, I just want to say I love you guys. Bye. They're like, you stop it. I have a couple screenshots of when you were working there and I remember when you told me about Robin the first time. And she had popped off and you sent me a screenshot or you like of the slack. Oh, do you have it? I think so. It's amazing. The 1 you were talking about, she said the, she said something, something, something who the F knows, but. It was like, someone else asked a question today and then you popped off and slack and I remember. so that was my I was like, look, there's another person here who speaks up You did you're like someone else asked the question today. Some of them some of our peers were even telling me like Oh, yeah, Jamie bring that up at the you know They'd say something they'd say Jamie bring it up at the next and I finally snapped Robin and I was like I don't even know if you were in the chat for this or not, but I was like I'm sick of being the only one. I'm like, you guys have to speak up too. I was there for that. Yeah. I was there for that. And Robin's like, oh yeah, we remember. We all had a private chat after that. No, there was no private chat after. I just, I was like, other people have to speak up too. And, but then other people that never spoke up started speaking up and I was like, that's great. And I felt, I think they felt more empowered. Yeah. And I think over time as we got more comfortable with each other and with our, we had an awesome manager so that I think so that made it a lot easier to speak up. you know, I felt heard and seen the amount of appropriate bullshit. You and I send each other is truly blowing my mind. And now I can't find it. I know. Sure. From two years ago, we can find three years ago, right? Three years. I think it. Yeah, probably you were like, who the F even knows is what it said. And Jamie was like, look at her. Maybe that's why I was also so shocked is because she was like. She said, fuck or F or something and I was like, yeah, how many screenshots of slack were you taking? I don't know if I've ever taken a screenshot of slack. It's so funny because No, it was specifically because you were like, someone else because, I. I'm not trying to speak for you, but I know you were struggling with, like, feeling. Either punished or I got beat down a lot, and and by for a while before, I was beaten down by other women in leadership roles, like above me and my managers who were like other women that were like making the Ikea. Yeah, making me feel like shit for speaking up or like, it was awful. And so it was, yeah, I'm not mashing. I'm really wondering what our experience would have been like, if we hadn't had, 2 women who were in charge of us. When we work together, I wonder if we would have been, I just wonder if it would have been different. I guess I am. I don't mean to man bash. I like men. I have two young men that i've given birth to i'm married to a man. I just but I don't work with them So man bash all the time. Yeah Trying to make a blanket statement like all men are Inferior managers to women. I don't believe that to be true. I'm, just wondering what the dynamic would have been because most of my managers have been Women in the last couple years Yeah, I think it stood out so much for her because you were the first one to make her feel not shitty and you were leading by example by asking questions and I remember because you and I've been talking about it and you've been so down and I remember you telling me like, so excited you were, you were the light at the end of the tunnel for me, Robert. I just, it's so funny to me because I can't, I just can't, I don't know what it's like to be shy. And I'm not making fun of people. I just, I don't ever feel like not speaking up. And so to hear that, you felt weird about speaking up or that other people don't feel comfortable speaking up. It's as foreign to me as, Anything that's foreign. I tend to, it just, yeah, I tend to manage a lot of introverts, which is fine. I'm an introvert. And I think It was harder for some of my direct reports like at different stages to speak up because they were shy and they were so introverted so they didn't want to speak up because they didn't want to call attention to themselves. And I, I told every one of them at some point, Hey, I want you to be comfortable. If you're not comfortable speaking up, you can always ask me and I will be happy to for you. But I also want to empower you to speak up. because what you have to say or ask is, is, is valid and fine. And so I, I do want you guys to like branch out and start speaking up for yourselves a little bit, but I also understand being an introvert and a little shy and maybe, you know, in a role where you feel like you shouldn't that nobody cares what you think, but it's I care what you think. Everyone else cares what you think. You're shy, but you have a very quick wit and you are quick to share it. Which is like not common in someone who's shy. You don't seem afraid to speak your mind. I'm not shy. Yeah, I was. I guess I don't understand being introverted. I don't know. Jamie's not shy. Please. So what's the difference? An introvert? You, okay, so I will tell you, we went on vacation together and this bitch every time a waiter. Oh my. how are you doing? No, it's so great. And she would just talk. To people we were at a store. She's like, oh, these pants are great. Have you tried these pants? I'm like, Jamie, we don't even know them. And you were telling the lady about the soft, fuzzy fleece pants. You're like, these are so soft. This we're nicely talking to her about it. That's the difference. That's the Midwest in me. I think that's because I grew up in the Midwest. That's very Midwest. You're you're very good at it though. if you're. it just seems like it comes 2nd nature to you. You are excellent at talking to people and I am. Not that's why we make a good team, but that's the difference. I don't talk to people and I don't want Jamie's very, there are a lot of people to be clear. There are a lot of people. I don't want to talk to, but so what makes you an introvert? You just get, tired of talking to people after a long period of time. I think the biggest different and this is what I heard that I think makes the most sense to me is like extroverts. are like filling their cup when they're like around people. Introverts. Yeah. They're being drained when they're around people. Even if it's, it's this, like after this, like I'm going to need a little bit by myself because I love this. I love doing this. I love you guys. This is fun. But, it's still like a lot, like even if you know how many meetings we were in sometimes, like I would be in like four and a half hours of meetings. One day and like I would literally just have to go lie down in my bed for 15 20 minutes Not sleep and just lie there in the a little bit of darkness and like silence Because I needed to recharge Understood understood. I mean there's lots of other things, but I think that's like the main Completely my husband's more like that. Yeah, he is fine to chat chat chat, but like at the end of the night he's he just He wants his alone time. and I get, you know, like sad if I'm not around people. I don't know. It's just so interesting how, you know, people are wired so differently with that stuff. Yeah, I literally cannot even imagine. I feel like I miss so much of the chat here. What's happening? Oh, Rob's getting ready to tell his boss that she's being I don't know. Talk to my new manager about how she's coming off. How's she coming off? Rob? you know what? She really loves is if he just looks a little tired or ask if it's like, she has her period. She's really good. Oh, my God. Women love that. I hate that. Love that. Oh, you look tired today. Have you had a man say that to you before in the workplace? Robin? Oh, God, I don't think so. Oh, man. Oh, or if you're not wearing makeup and they go, are you sick? No, because I never wear makeup. When I went to work, I wear a little makeup, but no, I always look like complete crap at home. And in fact, I've gotten so comfortable looking like crap, like I don't even try for the Zoom meetings. This is me trying right now. I have my hair down. You look beautiful. Mascara on. Yeah. you're very kind, but, I, you know, there are plenty of people who wouldn't even dream of being in a Zoom work meeting without looking semi professional. Yeah. Rebecca. Oh, that's great. That's a what I, I wish I had that Jean. I, I, I am like missing that gene. I love like the jean that likes to get dressed up and put on lots of makeup and always look fancy. And I don't have that jean. I think I'm the same. I know, love that. Holy shit, I love it. Rebecca, you're an introvert and not chatty? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, I have select. I have it's like a cat. Like, I have people and that's it. And I don't know, she never shuts up to me. I have to say, or 1 year involved where you've committed once a week to talking to a new person. We fought a lot about that, but having a guest each week. You know, about this, I really did not want to do this. I did not want to be. Perceived. I wanted to be behind a microphone. I didn't want to be seen. Oh, I know. And Jamie made me and now I have a new skill. She keeps saying skill. She keeps saying that I made her, but it was definitely, a business partner decision. yeah, it was, I know, but if you weren't comfortable, you're so made up and you're doing great. You asked really good questions. Yeah. What if he told me we could make more money this way? that's, you've made 65. You said, that's incredible. Don't share our finances. Robin. We want to keep up from this. Sorry. I meant just from this call, just from this call, just from this, just from this call, 65. and that's what much more than I've made from my videos. Much more. Yeah, but you're not on Twitch yet. See, great. True. I'm true. Gotta get to cheap. You're right. Or substack for any of those things. Yeah. I'm telling you. Listen to you Substack. Yes. You could do this Jamie. You can be a consultant to get people set up on their Twitch, like stream labs. Yeah. Telling you you'd be amazing at this. Marina says it's funny if I next week had you guys as a guest on my tweet. Yeah. Yeah. Next week. Oh my God. Set up for me and make you talk to strangers on it the entire call with no input from me. How would that go? You're really winning points with Rebecca right now. You're doing a great job. Edibles. I'll be there. Don't worry. It's your cycling frog too. Everybody has cycling frog now. Yeah, don't know what they're cycling. It's a brand. It's fine. It's for CBD for pain, but Jamie was like, try them. Yeah, it's I recognize that label. Oh, it calms you down too. Yeah. It makes you chill. Yes. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. So I feel like. This is that time, Robin. I said, that's the feeling. Oh, you guys have the feeling. When you were asking, that's the feeling. Yeah. We were. Robin's like, when do we end? And I told her the same thing I told Rebecca on our first episode. I said. I feel like it'll just be a feeling. And then Rebecca just said to like. Wash her hands of us. And I know once you pulled out the CBD like Robin's I need to go take some on my own and have a good night. So I'm a mother. I don't talk about these things. I don't talk about these. Oh no, she's like spinning in her chair. I see you. I see you over there. Yeah. this was awesome. Thank you for having me. Oh, my God. Thank you for hanging on. I heard so much about you. I've heard so much. I'm so glad to meet you in person. It's been so much fun. Glad to meet you too. I know. And I love knowing someone else in my industry because you know, all the madness. but I really enjoyed talking and I enjoyed this much FaceTime with you, Jamie. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it not on Twitch. Let's do it again soon, though. You know, like on a less structured way. On your podcast. on my Twitch next week. Yeah. Next week on Robyn's Twitch, you guys. Thank you so much, Robin. Thank you for being here. Follow Robin, watch her videos,. I just wanted to say thank you, everybody. Was great. we love Robin. Robin's amazing. but please, please, please, podcast feeds give us five stars. If like a reviews will help too. I don't think we have any reviews yet. We may have one somewhere. I don't think we have any reviews. It helps us a ton if you just Like, follow us. That's like subscribe. So follow us on Spotify, Apple, Amazon, wherever you get your podcasts. With your support, we have become the number one mental health podcast in Norway, yeah. Thank you, Tora. Thank you, Tora, for that. Thank you so much for your support. Want to tell them what we're going to get into next week? Yes. It's my sister. She is coming. We are going to ask her all the questions she went from working in a museum to working as an electrician's apprentice thank you all so much for tuning in. Thank you for showing Robin. Oh, you can ask her about stabbing me in the leg with a pencil. All right. Love you guys. Thank you all for being here. Thank you for being here. Bye.

Jamie: 1:04:13

The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie Young.

Rebecca: 1:04:16

And me, Rebecca McCracken. You can find all our episodes, plus show notes, at burnoutcollective. com.

Jamie: 1:04:22

Follow the discord link on our website to join the burnout community. You can also find us on TikTok and Instagram.

Rebecca: 1:04:29

If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode or have questions or feedback. You can email us at podcast at burnout collective. com.