Here's the thing, I don't pay attention to men. That's gonna be our, that's, that's it. That's the bit at the beginning of the podcast or that's just, or that's just the title of the episode now. Here's the thing, I don't pay attention to men. I don't. Or your life mantra. I'm Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective. Hey, everybody. Hello. this is Madeline. We're so excited. Madeline, welcome. This is Madeline Shores. She is here. episode 14. Can't believe it. And yeah, we get to talk to her about what she's been doing for the past year after she decided to quit working full time and focus on herself. What a dream. What a dream. Yeah, thanks so much for having me and giving me a chance to talk about burning out and quitting your jobs with no real plan. I'm Madeline Shores. worked as an editorial and comms leader for about a decade, at a financial services institution and, had a career before that and always been an editorial and comms. and quite frankly, I think, being an older millennial and being in the workforce. young like everyone and just going through my career, I knew at some point that I would probably snap and quit my job and take time off. That was something I did not And then it happened. It did happen. it's amazing. I just, I used to wake up every day and I enjoyed my work. I had a job that I loved. It was in my field. It's exactly what I wanted to be doing. There was no other job that I wanted that would have fulfilled me like, the one that I had. However, I also woke up every day like, man, when am I going to get a break from this? And I felt like That, more and more was like, Oh, it'll just be, you have PTO coming up in a month and you're taking a week off and I was like, Oh, great. And that did not do anything to help that, like for a while, PTO helps in the beginning and then I got to the point where I would go on PTO and I almost didn't want to because it was so much work just to get there. Like I'd have to do all the work for that week. the week before and then I get on vacation and I'm so stressed out and I haven't slept in a week. And it wouldn't do anything. I would spend my vacation, like, catching up on sleep. And then I'd go back to the office and I'd be like, Oh my gosh, I have to do this again today for another, month until we have that vacation day. It's the biggest crime right now are people being like, Ooh, we're not gonna have another day off till May. Fuck you guys. I don't need to be reminded. Fuck all y'all. I hate that. Companies do love to do that, right? It's always the HR people. They're like, Okay guys, just a heads up, here are the holidays. The next one's not for four months, and it's like, oh jeez. I lived and died by my holiday calendar. That was a wake up call for me when I was like, I rate one year because we didn't get one of the days off we normally got, and it was like a long story with that. Like stock market calendars, but I was like, Oh, we need this day. I'm not going to be able to do this year if I don't have this one extra day. And I will say too, I worked in a company that had a very liberal PTO policy. I had a ton of it. And it wasn't like I was being run into the ground by no days off or no PTO or no time to do things like I had so much freedom to go to a doctor's appointment or whatever I needed to do. At the end of the day, it was still that, just crushing, like, my company owns my life because I have to be here five days a week and it felt, it got to the point where it felt like my entire life. and I just always wondered, like, when am I going to start living? Like, when am I going to, live? Or, like, when am I going to get the chance to just live for me for a little while? And I always advocated for, sabbatical options. They're not very popular, and I don't really know why. Four day work week. I, every company I've worked at, not everyone, but the last three, I kept trying to bring that up, and so many people are behind it, but, it's the CEO and the HR that like, look at me. I think they actually stopped responding to me at my last company when I like, would ask and check in with them about it. Oh, did you guys consider this? Did you read my email with all of these sources as to how this is a really great idea for employees? And they just started ignoring me. So that felt great. Yeah. And. I think that's common, unfortunately, I really, I wrote in surveys that were taken pretty seriously, that everyone has a company culture survey and sometimes nobody listens, but these were taken pretty seriously and I remember writing in there, I could spend the rest of my career here, which would have been like 20 more years after this, if you would give me a sabbatical. But without that, I do not know if I'm going to be able to work here long term, because I have all of these things that I would like to do, not just have time to focus on myself, but I've always wanted to go like travel for a month. And there was never a way to do that with a full time corporate job. With no sabbatical option or like even if you have all your PTO, you don't want to spend it all in one month because you have like kids who get sick, I mean you do want to, but you want to do that every month, right? Yeah, you want to do it every month and like I can't risk like what if I use all my whole bank of PTO in February and then I have to spend the rest of the year without any that's not tenable. and something that always, don't wanna say bothered me, but, in my late 30s, I watched, majority of my friends have kids, and they were all getting time off. Now, not, I want to be really careful with this, I support parents 100%, and I think parents need more time off, way more time off of work than what they currently have, and I hope everybody. but I saw, oh, all of my friends have had these few months where they're focusing on their family. Of course, it's not like they're just on vacation, not doing anything, taking care of a baby and your family. that's really hard work, but they spent a few months working on their family and they're able to focus on their personal lives. And I was like, huh, this doesn't feel great, that I don't have an option for that, even if I want to go work on my, myself, or focus on my mental health, which like, Or your family, which could not include children, or could not include a partner. I do, I actually do. I have a dog who is post op, well, eight weeks post op, sleeping next to me right now, who just went through something, and, it's, it just really, got to me that there was no way for me to take any leave from my job or my career, no matter where that was without deciding to have a baby or something drastic happening where I would qualify for some other type of leave, which I wasn't wanting that, I didn't want to actually get pushed to the point of having a mental breakdown and having to, take a few months off to, to handle that, so yeah, I, honestly, there was something, big that happened in my personal life, and, not a lot of big things happening at work, but a lot of bullshit happening at work. Always. And I thought about it for one day, which was, I thought, I showed incredible restraint not quitting on the spot, but I thought about it for one whole day. I said, don't quit today, but maybe we'll just think about it till tomorrow, and I thought about it till tomorrow, and then I was like, nope, goodbye. this is I have to ask, are you a Virgo? Obviously, I go. That's the biggest Virgo energy I've ever heard in my entire It's like a blessing I love it. But it's also a curse because it's You're just done. one day you're just fucking done. No matter what the thing is, your job, a friendship, just done, and you just don't look back. which isn't always the best, but for this, it really worked out. Oh, you put yourself first for once. I did. And I, it took, it took some, me saying some things in a different way, and just be like, I'm out of here. And I had You know, because I had known that I always wanted to, take time off and not work for a little while. there were financial things that I had done in advance of that, where I had, emergency savings that would Help out if I was ever in the situation, of job loss or of job loss because I snapped, You're like, mostly because, mostly if I snapped, isn't it? Mostly if I snapped, I knew I wasn't really gonna lose my job. I like how you're like, ever since I was five years old, I knew one day. I knew it would happen. I didn't even like going to school because I didn't like having to go somewhere every day, like school owned my life. Yeah. The same. The same principle. so it like wasn't really easy and it was actually terrifying because I woke up that next day after I quit and I had these thoughts of I'm finally free, like I'm gonna be free. I gave like notice, so I worked for a few weeks. yeah, like I'm going to be free. And then I was like, holy shit, you don't have a paycheck. What the fuck are you gonna do? And How long did that take to kick in between I need to do this, goodbye, I'm leaving? And oh, this is great. I'm so free until wait, holy shit. What did I just do? What a day. I don't have a page. Oh wow. Oh wow. That's quick. That's quick Madeline. No, I was like, holy shit, but I just didn't I like didn't care like I cared but I was like, I am leaving this job and I am taking time off and I'm not getting another job right away. And I'm just gonna see how long the money lasts. I'm just gonna see how long I can do this. It's interesting because a lot of people, when I first told them, like my close friends who were my peers and they knew what I was going through, were like, good for you, we're so happy, right? Yeah. And most people who I meet and, they say, oh, what do you do? And I'm like, well, nothing right now. I'm taking a professional break. And most people, especially if they're older than me, Or good for you. That is so important. And I'm like, oh, that's shocking. That's not, I did not expect you to say that. I thought you were gonna, yeah, I was ready to fight. I didn't think you were gonna say that. I know. my parents were like, oh, you're ruining your life, what are you doing? But that's my parents. They're always gonna do that. You're like other old people, besides my parents. But people who I don't know are strangers, and I expected a lot of oh, really, you're not working? But it was like, wow, that's so important. and, there are people who I don't know super well who see me not working and just assume that it's like this insane privilege that I have. I don't have a trust fund. I don't have anyone else paying i'd probably be a shittier person, but I do wish I had one. it was this whole mindset shift of, okay, we're just not gonna go out for dinner anymore. We're not gonna spend money on, we're not gonna buy anything. And it was it really took me back to when I first graduated college right after 2008. And I, had to live off ramen and whatever. and it felt like that, but it also, I was really happy that I had that experience of living with very little and not being able to find a job, so I could then do this and feel more comfortable with it. cause it's like, it's hard. It's really hard to like, turn off the little voice that's you're ruining your life and your savings and your whole life because Your job gives you so much financial freedom in every single way. for sure. Yeah. Well, yeah, well, you're, you have to live here. if you are employed, you are living for your job and to get that. And you, you took a radical choice and went, no, I'm going to live for me. And we were saying yesterday. We'll both die, but like you will have died knowing that you spent your time living for yourself versus living for a company. And that's huge. For a period of time. so you're better than us, is what we're saying. Exactly. I'm still much better because I just, snapped. Yeah. and that's how I think of it, though. Like I think about how, we all want to get to 65 retirement. I, you work for over 40 years at that point if you don't take any time off. And I looked at my life and I thought, okay, this seems like a really big deal right now because you're not working, you're not contributing to your savings. I'm not saving any money right now. I'm using it. like a faux retirement in a weird way. but I never wanted to look back and be like, I wish I did that. And also thinking about it, if I have a 45 year career and I take one or two years off, that's nothing. People do that for fucking kids. Yeah, true. Yeah. I took two years off for a kid and all I got was a kid who writes me awful letters. You get to do cool things like hiking and concerts. Ash says, it would be so nice to have leave options as a non parent besides like FMLA. And Elyssa said, workers have a lot of personal care responsibilities besides parenthood. Yeah, there are. A lot of support for Virgos. Love a Virgo with a fuck off fund. I support all Virgo energies everywhere, Oh yeah, taking care of sick parents. your Dog, got really sick and you probably, I think we were saying yesterday, you wouldn't have had a chance to devote that time and energy to her like you would now and she's still here and doing so well. Yeah, and I was, I felt so lucky almost. So my dog had, she tore her, dog ACL. I like how you always say dog ACL, by the way. Well, it's not called an ACL in dogs. oh, okay. People are like, well, actually, and I'm like, I fucking know what it is, but not everybody knows what a CCL is. So it's a dog ACL. I was just schooled. I was trying to be funny and Madden's like, actually, you're wrong. Actually, it's because people are always like, well, actually, it's something else. Okay, fuck off. My dog's leg is broken. It doesn't work. It doesn't matter. Anyway, I think. But yeah, that, she did that. She basically had to have reconstructive surgery of her knee. And needed, like, kind of insane care. we had to monitor her, 24 7 because they basically, cut her leg in half, reattached it with a plate. And you have to, make sure she doesn't, run too hard and snap that plate in between the time, the surgery and when it heals. And it was, like, a full time job. It was, like, taking care of a baby almost. Almost. Except dogs have to go outside to pee, which is bullshit. But anyway. Pet ternity leave. Pet ternity leave. Okay, I'll stop. Or just fucking leave. just leave for anything that's important in your life that you have to do. Like, why is that? Not an option at this point. And I'm not saying your mental health, yeah, like I, I would still be working there if I had leave and I could have taken it. And that's what I always said It's and they got you super young like they got you right out of school. I didn't say yeah I actually started there when I was 24 So they had someone like you working there and instead of saying fuck. Yes, take a month off You are one of our most valued people they went So that no bigger picture thinking from them no, which again just goes to prove my point of if you were hit by a bus tomorrow they would not fucking care, but like they didn't nurture you, they, they just drained as much blood as you could give them. And then we're like, okay, bye. That's awful. Exactly. And it's as a, I would have literally devoted the rest of my career to that company because that's how much I actually did enjoy. Working there and there were a lot of situations that I was in that I had to get out of but that was like not the company that was more like people that just were people like too hard for me, but people always people too hard for me man like I get it and I almost felt okay like you're just gonna let me walk away because I need some time not to mention there are no career people anymore Like it's every two years people our age like having to go from job to job So the fact that you are willing to be like I am here and you have me and that no I literally told me I will spend the rest of my career here If I have these things. And I wasn't even trying to like, threaten them at the time. Because I, I think when I said that, I was two years out. but yeah, that's all you need to give me. And I, it's not all, of course, that's a big deal to a company. But if I could get pregnant tomorrow, and have a baby in 40 weeks, you would have no problem giving me three months off. But if it's just because I want to, it's not doable. And that's what really gets me. And nobody would, there were people who I worked with who took six months off when they had babies, because they had just worked out their leave, and then, parental leave, and everything to back up that way, and that's great. I love that for them. But you can't fucking tell me because I don't have a baby. I can't be away for six months. Yeah. your time is treated as infinitely less value if you don't have kids, by the way. Oh, well, she can fill in. I'm with my family right now or, well, she can do it. It's so gross. it's so gross and wasteful. Yeah, it is. And I definitely felt that a lot from like leaders. A lot of, unfortunately, women. or like really big perpetrators of that, or were for that. I was like very lucky to work with very supportive men, always. in a weird way, like I don't know why, and I don't know why this happened, but the worst people I've ever worked with are women, who have treated me the worst. My career? probably because women are threatened by other women in like a stupid way that they shouldn't be and men aren't. so that's because they can kill us. When they should be. Yeah, exactly. men should be threatened by us all the time. A hundred percent, but for different reasons. I'm not trying to take your job, but I am going to actually kill you. No, yeah, like I was, I always found the most supportive people to be men. Who, saw me as a whole person, not just, whatever other women would treat me as. It was like, oh, well, I'm, like, with my kids, you have to do this thing. Or, oh, I'm doing this. Or, oh, I have kids to, do this. And it was like, why are the men here the ones defending me? Why are they saying, the dads were the ones who I wanted to support at work? Not because they were dads taking care of kids, and that's amazing. It's not. It's just parenting. But, yeah, they were the ones who were, like, really respectful of my time. I would check in, and, Hey, we're doing this project. Like, all night, bedtime is at 7 for my guy, do you mind taking this part so I can go put him to bed? Of course. Of course I'll do that. Yes. Why wouldn't I? Because even though this really stressful thing is happening, you're gonna still make time for your kids, and you should. And it just, I could go on about this for literal days. We will nod in agreement. That's, I also think it's like, the whole like, maternity leave thing is so outdated, and I know they do like, Parental leave now, which is great, but I think, that's I don't know, now I'm like, that's the next step, maybe, is, and I don't even know exactly how they would go about it, because there's still part of me that thinks, well, if somebody has a baby, though, they deserve more time. I still think I deserve time, but I'm like, oh, maybe they deserve more time. I don't know. Maybe that's just, internalized, society pressure. Well, no, I do think, we have to think about the real Facts of what it means if you are either, adopting or physically birth, or you could be the non birth parent or physically birthing a baby. there are insane things you go through that are definitely, that definitely require more time than me taking a mental health break. I completely agree. And I think it's we all need more time. Parents deserve more time. Like moms who have children and like they get an extra week off if they have a c section and like you just had your abdomen cut open and you had major surgery. Wait, people do that? I've never heard that. Oh yeah, you get more time if you have a c section but it's like five more days. As someone who's had a c section, lol. That's bonkers. But also, it's that whole takes a village mantra of having kids, and part of that fucking village is people who don't have kids, and they also need to be supported in kind, though. I'm not. Where's my auntie leave? Where's my auntie leave, you guys? what if I need to pick up someone else's kid from school? And it's well, you don't have kids. Yes. I, okay, but I'm helping out the parents who can't leave. Or you're like, I'm the village. Yeah. I'm the village. It's me. Yeah, absolutely. And I think with everyone having kids later, with more advances and what can be done at like different ages, grandparents are not that same village that they used to be, they're off doing their own things, being retired too, and it's you can't just rely on your parents who aren't working the same way, and part of me while we're having this conversation, it sucks, because I wonder, Should I have a baby? No. No. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. No, I do think that all the time. Then I'm like, no. I remind myself, no. Companies are only giving us what they're required to. FMLA is, federally mandated. Now, none of these leave options, are because they're nice or because they, or the company wants us to have the time. It's literally, you have to legally give people off for certain things. Granted, not having a kid, but you can't really get anywhere in the world if you're not giving, parents leave right now as a company., Ash said, Jamie, can we fake a maternity leave somehow? That was like, basically my work wife from a couple jobs. And honestly, who was it that told me? Was it you, Rebecca? Someone told me Pretty recently, like I think this year, they were like, they don't check, just tell them that you're pregnant. Yeah, I just learned this from the Skamanda, Skamanda documentary on, I don't know what streaming service, but it was a woman who lied about having cancer and there was no way to prove it for a while because of like HIPAA. And I was like, oh, people could be lying. Honestly, don't think for one fucking second that hasn't crossed my mind about should I just, I mean, obviously I can't because I would go straight to hell, but I don't know. You mentioned aside from your parents, you got a lot of outside support from like friends and people like, what about your spouse? What was the kind of support system? Did that take some adjustment or how did that go? Were you just like, by the way, today's the day? yeah. not my, like, best, uh, move there, not really having, I mean, I told him, beforehand, a day beforehand, I'm probably going to quit my job tomorrow. He was like, what? God, I love you. You're like, yeah, that one day I took, I just half heartedly at dinner was like, oh, by the way, this is great, babe, but, I might not have a job tomorrow. Yeah, it was pretty much it's gonna happen. I'm gonna snap. No, it's actually interesting because we've had two very different career paths and careers and career experiences. when I first met him, he was like a newspaper reporter, so he's been through a ton, and his background is in journalism, so he has been laid off a ton, and that is actually how we like lay off proof to our finances a little bit, so we only really need, so we didn't actually need all of the income we were making, which is what they tell you should do, so then you're never like tied to your job, because that lifestyle creep happens where, Oh, I'm making double what I used to make, but somehow I have no extra money because my life, my expenses have grown around that. I will, this won't hit with everyone, but we were lucky enough to experience all of these layoffs. Because every time he got laid off and, the first time was awful. The second time, I was like, oh, and the third time, I was like, oh, I don't care. and when I did this, it was it was just like me getting a layoff. I, it's my turn now to be the one who didn't work. And, through, through my job, and I was always I don't want to say the breadwinner, but, well, I was, but, I was the one who had that consistent job. I held health insurance. I did that and he had, yeah, he took his time. He had a few years here and there like in between those layoffs and jobs and COVID to just like spend time thinking about what he really wanted to do. Again, like lucky asshole got laid off and had all this time off where he was getting paid and I'm like why can't I get laid off? Like I'm, and I'm not like wishing that on anyone because it, it can be really devastating. You get laid off, but sometimes I was like, I just want to be the one who this happens to. That's the point you get, though, to burnout. That's the burnout thing, love. that's what burnout is. It's God, just please let a meteor strike me down. That's how you know, like, you're already, beyond the breaking point is when you're like, God, just lay me off, please. I was like, can't I just get fired or something? Like, why do I have to be such a hard worker and, valuable employee? And nobody is ever going to fire me. My thing is always, God, why do I have to care so much? Why do I care? That's the thing. Because ideally, if I could have gone to work every day and not cared about the pressure that people were putting on me that was like fake, I'd be fine. I wouldn't be burned out. But I care about my work. I care about in the workplace, Not necessarily impressing other people, but doing things that are helpful and that other, my superiors want me to do. And there is just so much stress in that. you talked about like a high pressure job that doesn't need to be high pressure, which I relate to so hard. It's, I call it Kermit arms where everyone's running around. It doesn't, it really doesn't have to be that way. There's not an emergency. Nothing is an emergency. it's all the same. And it's like the emergency. Was net was always like someone's ego or someone's power struggle or something like yes This is an emergency because I can't possibly delegate this to somebody else because I need to control it and that is where the prime honestly, that is where all of my burnout came from of having leaders who needed to control things who Really wanted power and control and the way they got that was by making me work on all of this shit. I could have delegated so easily to more appropriate people, and I couldn't because like they needed to have their arms around it. And that's like fake stress. That's fake stress. I was not saving any lives. They're justifying, they're justifying their own incompetence. oh, I'm very busy. If you're actually good at your job, you don't run around like that. You're just quietly doing your fucking job. And not only are you having to deal with that, but you're also having to do their work because, let's be honest, they're not really doing it. No, not at all. Because they're concerned about, the next thing, the next level, the next promotion. How do I make this person like me? How do I look good in front of X, Y, Z and I was a person who really made my boss look good all the time I did care so much and I should have cared so much about that, about my job, about my employees, And once I, it clicked for me and I was like, oh. I was always so valuable and I was, I was compensated and given promotions and all of that, but, I didn't have a choice to do that work or not. I didn't have a choice whether I was going to go above and beyond. it was like a requirement to do that. That's who you were. That was your, you didn't have, you weren't disentangled from your job. You were, it was part of you, you were part of it and you didn't know what you were outside of that. No, I didn't. Of course you had to care. And I didn't even have time to think about that at all while I was doing it, especially with a micromanager or, people who were always breathing down your neck yeah, I didn't know. And it, it was really a weird identity crisis. when I left my job I was 36 and I had worked there pretty much since I was 24. Oh wow. God. And the company that I worked for, for all intents and purposes, it's a great company to work for and there's such like a strong sense of camaraderie. Wink. Was that a wink? No, they are. A wink? Oh, okay. Okay, I wasn't sure. I worked for a great company to work for and I still burnt the fuck out. And I think that's what the, amazing thing is that it doesn't matter how, like, good your company is. If they're not supporting you, if they're not pouring as much back into you as you are into them, it's insane. the other thing is, men, when men get laid off, Everyone's oh, that's, that's who they are about their job. they have a hard time. But I've found women have just the same amount of time, like as a hard time of oh shit, now what do I do? and putting their all into who they were at their job. Yeah. And women are caretakers, like in so many ways. And I feel like, oh, like a Chad finance girl can get laid off and it's what do I do if I'm not like increasing shareholder value and making all this money? For women, it's I am doing all of this work to care for people and take care of things at work, and it like, becomes more of a part of you, at least in my case. I'm having flashbacks to Rebecca and I being on the phone and being like, I'm just so sick of babysitting adults all day. Yes! Yeah. I'm work mommy. I don't want to be work mommy, but no one else is gonna be work mommy, so you have to be work mommy. Yeah, exactly. All the men, too. Chad needs to be work mommy. It's time. Step up, Chad. He needs to be the one to tell everybody exactly how to do everything, or I don't know how to set up a meeting room, can you just do it for me? I don't know how to print this, can you just do it for me? No, I just don't know. You're just so much better at that than I am. I've had like close friends use that on me at work, and I was like, you have to be fucking kidding me. You have to, you're just gonna learn how to schedule a meeting, okay? I don't give a fuck. Dude, scheduling meetings? that's just, I mean, it's bad enough, period, no matter what it is. But that's like, that's the bottom of the barrel right now. It's disgusting. I know, and it was like a very complicated process, which again, like, Why is it complicated to reserve a meeting room? Why do I have three different programs to do this? is this where we're spending our time? Give me a fucking sabbatical. Yeah. Yeah. Aside from being able to disentangle who you are from your job, you said that like, when you are in the thick of it, Your goals are not your own goals. Your goals are the company goals. So there's no personal growth goal. There's no, there's nothing about you. It's all about basically giving up your entire fucking life to increase someone's bottom line. Yeah, and that's, that bugged me a lot. oh, you're gonna set your goals for the year. And this is like, anyone who's been through this at a large corporation knows how much of a fucking time suck and how stupid this is because nobody does them. And especially, I didn't realize how awful it was for leaders until I became one, and I was like, this is the worst thing I've ever done in my fucking life, honestly. Goal setting and writing reviews in a corporate atmosphere is awful. but the goal is for like, how are you going to further the company? I think we actually talked about this when we had Elyssa on as a guest as well. Just like goal setting and how ridiculous it is and I was going to ask you like have you ever worked for a company where the goal setting there actually was like was good and had a good outcome or was used at all? Because in some cases I've worked for companies where they don't even use it. no. Like the only thing that it's good for is keeping track of what you've done throughout the year. And if you are really good at your goal setting, which again, your business goals, we used to have business goals and personal goals. The personal goals were business goals too, because they don't care about your personal goal. Like you would have Oh yeah, it's improving your skill for the company. Exactly. Improve your skills. Exactly. I'll become more confident in this. To help XYZ. Yep. And just, ugh. Did you have to feel like you played along as a manager? Or were you just like, you know what guys, let's just be honest about this. I feel like that's, that was really what did it for me, was being a manager. Because I had, I was stuck. In between wanting to, treat my employees how I want to treat them, and then also having to tell them, there's all this bullshit we have to do and I'm really sorry. And I would frame it like that. I think this is bullshit. Same. I would. Yeah. And, well, that's the millennial manager. the millennial manager doesn't give a fuck about this stuff, but like, tells, tells your employees, I care about you. We just have to all get through this. Yeah. I had an employee say to me who attended a meeting that I usually don't have. He's like, oh my god, I didn't realize how much you, kept from us and protected us from. I was like, yeah, correct. That was my whole job. And then the work that I had to do, I would do on the side at night after everyone else logged off. Oh my god, just like a fucking mom. You are a work mommy. God damn it. Yeah, like I literally would sit there and oh, it's 5 p. m. and everyone logged off. I can get my work done now. I would start work early at 7 in the morning before anyone else was on so I could just do work early. So because I knew the rest of the day. Send your direct reports like a Homer like, oh, you worked really hard today. go ahead and go and then like you're still there 8 9 p. m In a good way, like I really did appreciate that I had a great relationship with most of my direct I had a great team Honestly, some of them are probably out there listening watching now, which is horrifying to me, but thank you. I'm here and it was just like oh It was so hard to Be what I was supposed to be for them, like what the company wanted me to be for them. Everything. Yes. If College You Saw Yourself, would she jump off a fucking bridge? Probably. Yeah. Because I had to answer for everything. That's what I say. well, why am I not getting a raise? And I'm like, I don't know, there's no money for it, but they make me answer the question. I don't have any idea why the, why we're not getting raises. I have no idea. Why, I can't do anything about your salary, but they told me to talk, they told you to talk to me, so they didn't have to deal with that. Yeah, that is ridiculous that, your manager is in charge. Of your review and everything. But then, as a manager, I was never, sure. I could say, Oh, I think this person really deserves a raise. or I'm like, Oh, I don't think I've actually ever said someone didn't deserve a raise. When was an opportunity someone was getting a raise that you could be like, Oh, no, they don't deserve that. You have to fight to make it happen. Yeah. Yes. But that's what I'm saying is it's never been like that. It's never been like, I don't know, I think I lost my train of thought. So they call that, I learned, no, I learned it's called peanut buttering. So I used to have the ability to be like, yes, there is, but They took that away from middle managers because they called it peanut buttering. Peanut buttering is something completely different. No, they used that term at work and it because it was like basically you're spreading our funds too thin So we're gonna we're gonna take that responsibility back to ensure But really what it is like too many millennial managers are being like, yeah Maybe people work really hard and deserve raises and giving out raises come on I couldn't I got to the point where I couldn't even Give people, a satisfactory rating at the end of the year if they didn't work above and beyond. Yes! Just doing their job. And I couldn't get this through to people at, like, above me. I have people on my team who are like me, who just want to come in here, do their job, go home, and forget the fuck about this place. They don't want to spend all of their free time at work thinking about, what stretch projects I can do, or what can I do to, like, give more to the company, or go above and beyond. It's We, it's created a work culture where you have to go above and beyond to meet the bare minimum. that's the bare minimum. Yes. And doing the bare minimum is not acceptable. That's what's insane is like when did we go from doing your job and doing your job well and that was enough and that was like praised now that's just like Mediocre, like on the scale of one to five, that's really like a three, a four is that you go above and beyond and do extra projects. And it's like, what? I know. I had a direct report say to me, like, I want to do this. And she's like, but like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna go out and get a new job. if I do this, I'll stay here. I was like, you can do whatever the fuck you want. Absolutely grow that skill. And if you want to leave here, good for you. Like you can You should pursue what you want to do for your whole career. it's okay, but you could tell she just was like, but it's for the company. I'm like, fuck it. Do it for you. Yeah, right? And I think, people who have really been conditioned into I can never tell my leader that I might want to leave or have a different job. You can always tell, what kind of manager somebody is by what happens when you tell them you want, you have bigger dreams than the job on their team. There's like a saying about cults, what's the difference between a cult and a religion? It's when you try to leave. And I have had really fucking weird experiences like that. telling somebody like, oh, I got a new job, and they don't, my leader doesn't speak to me for the rest of my time there. Oh my god. also, that's just immature. Not a thing, Madeline. You got a great job. We're so proud of you. Being an adult. Yeah, like, where are you going next? Actually, I, that job, I did quit without another job, but I got, one right away. cause it, the timing all worked out, but, they didn't like me telling everyone. Everyone's oh, like, where are you going? And I was like, you're about to see why you shouldn't have an open office floor plan. Because now I can just stand up and tell everybody, oh, I don't have another job, I just can't fucking work here anymore. And I stood up and said that, and then nobody talked. But that was the truth. everyone started clapping who worked there, and the leaders were like, this girl needs to go. but yeah, it's, I have had some weird ass experiences with my leader acting like it's a, Betrayal. If you want to take a job in somewhere else in the company, I've been through it where I had my direct come to me and be like, I think I want to apply for this job because I never assumed that anyone wanted to die on my team, stay there for their rest of their lives. Yeah. So I was like, Oh, cool. Like an internal or external opportunity. You can come to me because as your leader, I'm going to help you with that. And I want to help you with that. Yes. Wow. Some people were pretty much, written off. Because, by, like, my leaders or whatever, because, oh my god. They apply to a job internally. Stop it. What's wrong with you people? it's your job as a manager to get your employee to support them to get them to where they want to be and go in their life because it's their fucking life and it's not for you. You don't own them and that weird sense of ownership and betrayal again, yes, it's a fuck it's, work is a cult sometimes. You are, hello, you're in a cult. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy to me. Some people, and there are just like certain personalities that can really work for everybody. And that was very much what I saw. I work with someone who is at Dave Ramsey. I work with someone there and talk about fucking cults. They got out though, but holy shit. I can't even imagine. I can't even Don't they like ask a lot of really fucking weird shit just on the application? About your personal finance on that? And so the people that she worked with have told people don't talk to her anymore that happened to me when I left of, I was like influencing the remaining employees to mark. By, like, telling them how much money I made for the job that they were being asked to do now that I left. You know, when I was still there, I was this person's leader, so I wasn't going to Like, I felt like maybe I didn't wanna disclose that at that level. but I was like, oh, they're asking you to do my job, here's how much they paid me to do the job. And that was a really big blow. Not for me, but for somebody who was like, oh, well then you really shouldn't talk to other people about that. Now I can't take advantage of them! I know. Yeah, it was all that, and I got, very painted as like a, you can't really trust her, cause She betrayed us. I, if it makes you feel any better, on my last date, I had a very terrible job. The women I work with took me out and gave me tequila and then brought me back to the office and said, what do you think of all these people? Love her. I know. First of all, it was cathartic as fuck. but yeah, does she want to come on the show? Yeah. I love this woman. Yeah. Burn that fucking bridge to the ground no regrets. Cosmic says, I've been in the position where the head manager would ask me to do things and I ended up leaving because they refused to pay me more money. Wait, there's more. The biggest BS excuse I ever got was, We can't promote you because we don't want to lose the work you do in your current position. I have heard that for so many leaders before, and it is, that's just, that is the biggest bullshit excuse. Wait, which is worse, that or them saying, you can take that job if you take all your responsibilities with you? Oh my god. I didn't, I never had That's just working for free. That never happened to me, but it happened, I, I worked with some people who that happened to, I was like, oh. You came to this department and all of this work came with you? that's awful! Why was this a good idea? And we were saying, again, like we said last week, the company's inability to hire efficiently and effectively so that no one is overloaded is not your problem. You should not be working for free. No. Not at all. My favorite is when they're like, We have to up production. We have to increase. We have to scale up. We got to increase. scale up. But it's like we're not hiring anyone. We're already burnt out. We're all already overworked and we're not hiring anyone new because we have to stay under budget. And it's I was like, yeah, lucky enough that I came in to this leadership position and I had to build a team. So I got to choose what, like who I wanted to hire, who, what, not really, like I had to make an insane business case for each of these things. Like it would take me weeks to explain why I needed help in a certain area. And then it was like, Oh, we'll give you one headcount for this. And it's great, and then it's three headcounts worth of work. Yeah. I need three. I know we hired ten people, now you're asking me to do the work for thirty people, of thirty people with this ten people. And that's how it always goes, too. I'm like, I get it. Of course you want to scale up. Of course you want to ramp up. That's the one I forgot. Get a ramp up. Ramp up. Please. Please die. And the trend I've been seeing recently is they won't pay for anymore, but they will go hire a team in India and pay them slave wages, literally, and make them do the work of 30 people. Yeah. Then everyone else gets laid off. I work. For the company where I, I gave my notice, stood up and told everyone that I just couldn't work there anymore and then they wouldn't talk to me. they had I love you so much. God. They outsourced half of our job to the Phil like half of not half of our job, half of our work to the Philippines. And it was but they were like, oh, you're just full you're all full team members here alongside one another. And it was like the most awkward dynamic for anyone who didn't realize what was happening. And then there was like the other part of The people in the Philippines would get paid about half of what we got paid. But that was still, so much money for them that they would all take these jobs. And I was like, this is insane. And then we all had to sit there and train everybody, offshore, who was getting paid half of what we were getting paid, and we didn't even get paid enough for this work. the work that they were doing on the back end of financial statements for the country's biggest hedge funds and everything, And I was like, four, five dollars an hour, maybe. So they're making you complicit in it, then, is what I'm hearing. Yeah, and then I would have to sit there and train them all on how, on everything, of like, how we did it in the United States, so then all of the people I worked with could just be, I assume, let go. So they're, yeah, they're bringing you into that and making you part of their dirty little idea. Yeah. So many companies are doing that more and more, and and also AI. But then it's moral injury. What Elyssa was talking about, exactly that, like it's not even burnout anymore, now you've introduced moral injury to it because you're having to go against your code of ethics and who you are as a person. And they're making you. Yeah. And they expect you to, which is insane. They expect you to do exactly what they, They expect you to not see what's happening also. And it's I see that you're taking advantage of me and all the people here. I also see that you're taking advantage of these people in the Philippines way, in a way different way. and like, baiting them with these wages that are high to them but still not worth, still not what it should be. No, and just because it's quote, high to them, does, still does not make it ethical. No, it's not ethical at all. Oh, it's 2, 000 USD a year. It's, that's so much money in their country. Okay. But that still doesn't make it ethical. Yeah. Exactly. They're working for this American company alongside all of these Americans who are getting paid not even the wages we should have been getting paid, doing the same job and needing the same education, and you get half. Because of where you are and they are less than half. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Last normally for most companies. It was less. I think not like my company had the I don't know, like they knew if they offered a little bit more, they would get a lot of people working there, Yeah, you just tell you oh, we won't give them slave wages. We'll give them something that's a little bit better So they'll be loyal to us. They would rather stand on a pile of skulls slave wages times 1. 5 just burn it all down instead of being equitable at all. It's the capitalism problem of demanding infinite growth, which is impossible. Yep. Yep and again, I think Madeline, you've done a great job of showing like, well, we're all going to die anyway. So how about I not do that? Yeah. I'm just gonna. Fuck. Can you talk about what you have been doing since you decided to stand up and go, fuck y'all, y'all, I'm out? It was a really weird process. It's been about a year plus one month. So that I basically was like, Happy anniversary, by the way. Thank you. it took a really long time. I had in my mind that, like, oh, I'm gonna quit and, like, in a few weeks, I'll be ready to, do the next thing or, like, a month or, realistically, I thought, okay, two months because that's when, my money will run out and it, here's a scam we didn't talk about, it cost money to have a job, blew my mind how much money it cost me to have a job from just, if you're commuting, gas, but not just that, the coffee you buy on the way there, the lunch you buy, the dinner you buy. And then you have to pay for all, the domestic work that you're not able to do. which, I'm not even saying that as a woman, because my husband and I, don't really have a lot of gender roles in the home, like, traditional ones, thank God, but it costs so much money. you're ordering dinner out, you're ordering your groceries for your Instacart, which is a huge expense, but when you have a job, it's like, well, I'm working so hard, I can't go to the store, I have to do that. But, just all of these expenses, and, Child care, dry cleaning, there's so much. You spend so much money. Yeah. Pet care. You spend so much money just to have a job. The clothes too, especially if you work like in a higher level position or like at a formal company. Yeah. It's fucking expensive. I sold my whole professional wardrobe on Poshmark and that bought me like months of being able to not work. Holy shit! That's great. You were a well dressed bitch. I worked in a place where I, had to wear blazers to meetings in, 2023. Ew. Yeah, and, What happened in 2024? I didn't work there. oh, okay, good. January 2nd, I quit, man. I thought you meant like 2023 you had to wear blazers and then 2024 you were like, fuck it, stop wearing the blazers and then you quit. But like also to be taken seriously, you as a woman leader, you had to dress me. Which was ridiculous, but, yeah, no, I made, like, all this money off Hushmark, that is really a big driver of my income still. I'm still getting rid of shit because you know what you do when you're, like, oh, you're burnt out? You shop. Do you know what I'm saying? Hell yeah. Elyssa wants to know what the, what the men were wearing in your office. Well, shit. Lasers. Patagonia jackets and Target polos. Patagonia vest over a button down. Old Navy. Old Navy. Wait, I don't know. Here's the thing, I don't pay attention to men. So, I don't know. That's gonna be our, that's, that's it. That's the bit at the beginning of the podcast. Here's the thing, I don't pay attention to men. Or that's just, or that's just the title of the episode now. Here's the thing, I don't pay attention to men. I don't. Or your life mantra. I have no idea what the dress code was for them. I don't even know what my peers were wearing. I don't know. Too concerned about myself. Listen guys, she was checked out.. But no, seriously, there were. it was like such a process for me to realize, the income you think you need is actually not at all what you need to live. I thought my money would last three months, and it, didn't necessarily last a year. I don't want to say that, but it, goes a lot farther when you're not working. And, it just, I, it, at that point, like, when I hit the two month mark, two month mark, and I realized, oh my gosh, My job was costing me all my money, which is insane. I started, relaxing a little bit more, and it took, eight months to unwind myself from that job, mentally. It took so long to just, even to just process and, be on this podcast. six months ago, I couldn't have been here talking about it like this, because it took so long to, work through everything and why I felt burnt out and why I felt, Wronged and also like, you know, because you also think about your own culpability and burnout, right? And like What did I do to, to enable that to happen? staying at one You needed food and shelter and existing, you didn't do anything. Okay, are you familiar with the concept of the company, the company town where you have, a mining situation? And so they build up a town for all the miners to live there. The company owns it and it rents the housing to the miners so they can be nearby. They also have a company store where the miners can buy, like, all their food. It's like startups, Rebecca. Yes, it's basically it's a capitalism fuck cycle of you need clothes and so you have to spend your money there and by the time you've done all the things you need to have this fucking job, you have no money left. It's, it is, I like can't even think of the examples of all of the things, but it is wild how your budget can be so much smaller when you don't work a full time job, or like a traditional like office job. Honestly, it is insane, because I can still, now that I'm, like, not working or trying to, have quick meals in between, a million other things, I'm like, oh, I have time to, cook breakfast. I can buy eggs instead of a convenience food, right? Or, for lunch, I can eat real food, just, and take as long as I want to make it. and what you want, what you actually want, not just convenient things. Ash just made a really good point about the expense of working and what you're talking about. You also need like the medical care that comes with working a full time job, like therapy, physical therapy for back pain that's exacerbated from sitting at a desk, migraines. And migraines, yeah. All the care that comes with it, all the doctor's care and visits and medications if you need it and physical therapy. It's insane. My body is so much different not having a desk job. I didn't know that my hips didn't have to be tight. I don't, I, when I was like, allergic to the computer. I quit my job, shut my laptop for the last time, and I was like, I'm not opening a computer again. I don't go on a computer, my laptop every week. I don't open it. I don't sit at a screen at all. And I was like, oh my god, it's weird to be a human without this. It's like my body works. I don't have, like, all of these health issues that I need. I, don't need insurance if I don't have a job. I do, but I don't. In a really weird way. I don't get sick. I get what you mean. Yeah. I don't, because I'm not in the office. with all that shit. I don't know, knock on wood, I don't know the last time I had a cold. I, like, sleep, like, seven and a half hours every night. Oh my god, your body has a chance to recover? Yeah, my body's, recovered and it's weird. I'm like, oh, I don't. I still have chronic illness that I battle, but like my migraines, but no, I don't like, I'm not run down and I'm like, Oh, I like flew across the country during flu season and I flew back and I didn't get anything. And, Your fight or flight isn't activated 24 hours a day, so your immune system is oh yeah, I remember how to do this. I've never had a cold season without getting so sick. And then not being able to recover. Cause you take one day off and it's you kind of need a week off sometimes to like really recover from the flu or something. And none of us, most of us as adults, haven't ever been given the opportunity to just, like, be well. Even if you're off taking, off, if you take a few years off to take care of a kid, like Your wellness is not like up your priority. I mean, you have a kid, but Yeah, you have a, and they're just like germs. Once you have a kid. Germs just everywhere. sorry. No, you're fine. Elyssa, you mentioned oh, you mentioned like your, was it your Fitbit where it was like the, you saw like the amount of stress you were feeling like in an actual meeting was the same as if you were sick or like working out or something like that? No, it was crazy. So I have a whoop, which is like a popular, wearable like health tracker. I use that. It's primarily used by. People who are serious athletes, but it's coming over to the chronic illness communities and people are finding a lot of value in it. And one of the things that it measures is your stress level throughout the day and that it, now I'm not a doctor or an expert on this at all. I just know what I know because I have it, but it's a measure of like your heart rate and your heart rate variability consistently throughout the day. and so if I go on a super strenuous height, I would have high stress level the whole time. Where you're supposed to because you are literally putting the stress on your body. I can sit in a Zoom call, a work Zoom call, and have higher stress. Then that physical activity, it is so bonkers. Are there like studies about this? I feel like I hope so. And does that continue to like having to come down after the meeting? So so then your stress is still high and you have to come down to do the unwind, like the cool down to cool down from the meeting. Sometimes I like could never get it down. If I had a whole day of high stress, like you can't, after I went on hike today, I had, on my loop, I had this big high stress, Made sense. I was like hiking and it was a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. But then when I got back and started getting ready for the podcast, it dropped all the way down. and that's pretty normal because it's only, it was only measuring like my physical, my elevated heart rate when I was moving my body around and I'm back to my normal life. And it's like pretty low again. like stress is normal in the body when you're awake, you're stressed, you're putting some stress on your body at all times by being awake and being a human, but yeah. I actually really haven't been able to stress my body physically in the same way that a meeting would do to me. Jesus Christ. And I could sit there for an hour and the stress, it's like off the charts and it's scary. But the biggest, What's it like right now? How are you feeling, Madeline? I don't know. It's probably, honestly, if I look at it, it's probably up real high because I'm, like, on right now and we're having this, live conversation. I would consider that normal, right? if you're on, you're doing an interview, you're on a podcast, you want your stress to be high. But not, like, when you're in every fucking meeting. Yeah. You can't be on like that. Or back to back meetings, when you, don't have that opportunity to just, step back and calm down from it. I used to have, I think the, on average, it was 25 meetings a week. Shut. Up. What? Some days I would have nine a day. So I don't remember what mine was. You don't even work nine hours! People don't even work nine hours in a day! What the fuck? I used My meetings And this is like why middle management, there's no point because all you do is sit in meetings all day. I used to have 25 meetings a week and if each one was like half an hour or whatever like that was the max. I wouldn't take I wouldn't accept more than Fuck. Now I gotta look at how many I have. This is stressing me out. But that shit, I never, sometimes I didn't have downtime, it was just like back to back. And this is remote, I'm talking about remote meetings too. I can't even imagine what it is sitting in a meeting room. Oh, yeah. Yeah. When people are like looking at you and stuff, can see you, you can't just turn your camera off. And you just smell your coworkers and visually see your coworkers and be annoyed by your coworkers. Yeah. Listen, co worker breath is real and it's so gross, Just the grimace, the absolute grimace on your face, right before you said that thought was great. That's still, old. I want to get one, but I know if I get one, I'm going to be deeply upset. Rebecca, as your friend, please. I can't get one. Please don't get one. No, you can't get one. No, I know. You can't be stressed out about it. That's going to stress her out more. Yeah, no. Well, I'm just telling you that stress is probably killing all of you. I say that as if I'm never going to have to work again. I'm absolutely going to have to work again and find money, somehow. But, it's it just, it really, it blew my fucking mind, honestly, to see how much stress my job was. And a tangible, measurement, data, something that has no skin in the game, tell it, a robot or whatever, I don't know, a device, a piece of technology doesn't have feelings telling me, you're fucking stressed right now, and your stress level's been up all day, and you're not recovering. It also, it calculates a daily recovery score based on, some of your vital signs. Oh, man. I, and that, you can really feel it, like, when you're, your score's in the red pretty bad, that's, a, you should really take some time to, maybe just sleep all day. My score was in the red all the fucking time, it was working, and I would just work anyway because why wouldn't I? Oh, Elyssa just asked, and this is a really good question, do you feel like you'll be able to go back to work with a different relationship to your job and job stress, Do you, will you set better boundaries? Do you, no. Just that face, was that a No, I want to like, I want to believe that I can do that. Okay. I think like part of my problem and like how I found myself in the position of burnout was that, like I said, I started working at this company. I did take a short break, but I started working at this company when I was 24. What was your work ethic like when you were 24 before you had any other. anything going on you were like, yeah, I'm gonna do so good and I'll just work myself to death here And suddenly that's what everyone knows you have And then I'm like 36 and I'm like, hey, I don't want to work like that anymore. They're like, give it to Madeline. Madeline stays late and works hard. She knows how to do that. She goes above and beyond. Oh, I'm absolutely going into my next job being like, I'm here to do the minimum. Like I'm logging out at five, I'm never, like I'm not, or whatever, right? Like I'm not doing this shit. I'm not, I cannot establish myself as someone who like goes above and beyond and burns herself out. because I think that's really what killed me, and I, in the end, ten years later, I was working with all the same people who, knew and, had seen me work really hard, and I was like, ugh. I think, yeah. I see it on Rebecca's face as she's listening to you, I just picture Rebecca's She's, tuned out just a little bit and she's just, thinking of everything and, like, how she works and she's, I literally was, like, oh, they figured out that I can do my job really good and I'm really fast at it and that's what happens every fucking time I go to a job and I never, I, every job, I'm, like, they'll never know that I'm good at my job and then they find out and then, just in the best of situations. Oh, they always knew, even if they never told you, they always knew you were great at your job, but they didn't want to, compliment you. They didn't want to, give you that. That bit. They just wanted to take advantage of you. But yeah. But that's a good point, though. Like, when you start out working, you're just like, I'm gonna do okay. And then it just follows you everywhere. And unless you're a man. Yeah, unless you're a man. And then actually, nobody expects you to do anything, which is crazy. Hard work is rewarded with more work. Yes. I was like, yes. Literally. I, and I think about this a lot. I do have to work for money at some point again, like we all do. Like I used to work for money. Just to be clear, that's what we're doing. I, it's gonna be really fucking hard to go back. Cause I've hasted to screw them. And I didn't realize how much I was screwing myself by giving it to myself. Cause I'm like, I never want to do anything again like that. I will have to, and I'm going to figure out how to have to, how to set those boundaries at some point. I don't know what they're going to be, like I don't know how I'm going to do it, that's the plan. Feet pics. Yeah, well. Yeah. We'll see. I think winter's a good time. I think this is why people start their own companies though, because they can't bear the thought of working for anyone else again like this. This is the whole game. This is the whole scam. You get a corporate job. It is a scam. Then you can retire. And if you don't have one, it's really hard. And that's how they keep us in this capitalist machine. And by the time you're retired, you're too fucking old to do stuff like go hiking. Literally. Literally. yeah, I'm really lucky to have parents who didn't wait till they were retired to do things that they wanted to do. They did it before they had And just, Fucked around forever. because I had this conversation with my mom. They're in Jamaica right now, and she was like Complaining about something and I was like, can you imagine waiting until you're retired to travel and she was like no This is awful. Like I'm so tired like she doesn't want to deal with like air travel like and I'm like What if my plane crashes and my mom has to evacuate this fucking plane? And then I'm like worried about that. I'm like, how is she gonna get out? she's fine. You said something yesterday that was so beautiful though about like your current philosophy that I wrote it down verbatim. And you said having your life for a moment in time is amazing. Yeah. We're all gonna die anyway. We're all gonna die and you can't take it with you. You can't take it with you. Yeah. And like how, this has been such. it's really hard mentally. I don't want to, mince words there. It's really hard and there's that little voice in the back of my head every single day telling me like I've ruined my life because I'm like, stopped collecting a paycheck and stopped contributing to my retirement saving. And that's all from my own brain, right? But I have to talk that little voice down every day and be like, no, like You actually have your life right now. my life is mine for this point in time. At this point in time. I've never felt that before. And I might not ever feel that. if I have to, keep working. Who knows what the future holds. I don't know. I'm hoping I get rich and famous off this podcast. Are there any brands out there listening who want to sponsor me? I don't really buy much. Uncrustables, actually. we're buying hard for Uncrustables. And Alaska Airlines, actually. And just like your life is yours, again, that concept is because when you are working, your life isn't yours. Your life belongs to the people who you need to buy stuff from and the people who you have to answer to and you don't get to make your own decisions. And you, when we were chatting yesterday, you said something that like you, you've You're taking the time to figure out like what you want to do, but also you start saying no to things, like you don't feel the pressure to say yes, which again, amazing boundaries. It's, I'm, it's hard. I gave myself a reset, a life reset, because I ended up moving across the country. before I quit this job, and I was lucky in that, in that, like, to double edged sword, because you quit your job and you have no friends in this place that you just moved. not great. On the other hand, I quit my job and I have no friends, nobody's asking me to do shit. And I did make friends in the meantime, thank God, but it's very much I've set the tone for that friendship in a different way, of if I don't want to do something that you want to do, I'm not doing it. Of course. in friendships, you should do that sometimes, if your friend really wants to do something and they want you to go, I'll do that. But Oh no, you don't have to caveat. we are totally pro telling our friends, no, I'm not doing that. I'm not putting on pants. Well, I'm just advertising That is that kind of podcast. I'm advertising to the world that I do things I don't want to do sometimes, barely. I just said, I only said yes to things that I really wanted to do, because I was Yeah. Fucking tired. So fucking tired of doing things that I felt like I had to do, like my job, but also all the social commitments. I remember when we went into lockdown I loved all those plans being cancelled. I fucking loved it. It was like the greatest day of my life. When we got sent home, for COVID because, COVID was awful, but I was like, this is shaking up my routine. I don't have to go to this fucking place every day. I can like, do this work and I had this whole different life all of a sudden. I see me and Jamie nodding along like we're not two fucking Tauruses who are like, actually we'll just I was gonna say that. I was gonna, I was gonna say as two Tauruses who are introverts, we get it. Yeah. We're like, what do you mean commitments? Ew. Yeah. I, well, I just, used to overschedule myself, and I used to like all of those things, but I got to a point where I was like, I don't need, I just need my life and my time. I'm not, 22 and going to the bar and, running from my thoughts or, my, because your 20s are fucking awful. Awful. but yeah, I just said, I just say no to shit. And it Nope. Easy. Nobody's upset about it. And then it also, one of the things that I realized, I used to not say no to shit so then I wouldn't have time when those commitments came in or, the plans came in of the things I really wanted to do. And I spent so many days, missing events that I really wanted to go to, because I was sick or because I had a migraine. And it's oh, but maybe if I didn't do the 20 fucking things this weekend I didn't have to do. I would be okay right now. Yeah. And that's the way I've been living my life. I'm going to a concert this weekend, and I was like, my friend's Oh, if you, have a migraine or whatever, don't worry about it. And I was like, I'm going to this. This is the thing that I'm doing this for. What concert are you going to? Joy Oladokun. Who that is? She's like a smaller I also don't know 100 percent if I said her name right. but she's amazing. Amazing, black folk artist who is just incredible a lot of her, messages and things, I'm like, she got, she's in this struggle, the millennial girl struggle, I don't know how old she is, but she understands that, and I'm going to do that, I'm not going to cancel on that because I have all week to, prepare for it and if I need to, I have a headache or I just put myself full of drugs and I endure, That thing, or go to this thing that I really want to do and I can just sleep all day the next day. It's ah. You don't even have that dread. that's the thing. Even if there's something you want to do at the end of the week when you're working full time in a high stress job, there's a certain sense of dread because you know how hard it's going to be to get there and then the recovery after. So that you can't even, you're in your head the whole time, not even really enjoying it. Yeah. And it's I used to dread everything. Even the things I liked to do. Yeah. Cause it was just like a, Oh, I have to go get out of the house after working all week or going somewhere on a Friday night. Even if it was like seeing my best friends who I like wanted to see so bad. I was like. So drained, right? I go on errands now, and I'm like, and I'm like, oh, I ran a couple errands today, that's all I can do all of Saturday now. I'm done. I need to run those errands and get home immediately and rest. And how great is that? it is. It is great. I don't love it, but I love it. and I just don't think, I don't think that a lot of people who are working understand What it's like to just live a day without work or without, that job hanging over you. Because I get so little done some days. I'll spend, I'll have some project I'm gonna do, repot plants or something. And I'll do that and, a few other things around the house and suddenly it's five o'clock. And I'm like, I just spent my whole day on this one thing. And I used to feel so bad about that. if I was working, I could have done Eight hours of work. You can do so much stuff. You can have nine meetings. And I did one, I repotted one plant. But it was so enjoyable. And I wasn't bored at all. I was just like, existing. In life. I don't know. I would love to just be. Yeah, I know. I wanna say like a woman of leisure. But I know, like I know that's not it. But I'm just saying Yeah. That's actually what I want. it's you belonging to yourself. It's you owning your own self and not letting anyone else have pieces of you. Yeah. It's you deciding who has the pieces of you instead of them just taking from you. Literally. And like, how my time is spent, yeah. I control how my time is spent now and it's You can't, I can't And really Oh god. Well, in all those meetings you were in, what did you even, what did you even do? you say you get a lockdown, but it's well, but what though, can you take it home? No. Can you use it? you, it's something that got quote unquote done because someone else is telling you, Yeah. But you just did something, you repotted plants which purify the air and potentially provide you food to eat and it's for the soil, like it helps regenerate the soil. Like you did something that was actually tangible that you could touch and feel and see the results from. And I think that this is why sometimes we see people getting away from like college and corporate jobs because it can be, now this is again double edged sword because working with your body or your hand is very hard. and there are trade offs there, but doing things with your hands instead of like, in your computer, like, insane. I almost, I almost, I almost, I agree with RfK. Almost. When he's like, oh, everyone on SFRIs just needs to go to a labor camp, I'm like, maybe. But, that's never gonna work. Well, hold on a minute. If you take all of us off our drugs, we will have that shit up and running in no time. It will lead to most organized You give us one thing to hyper focus on, yeah, it could be good. I wouldn't say that it would be good. I'm gonna be honest. It would be efficient. Like, we would have it fucking running. We have nothing else to focus on, but that would at least be efficient and run well. Processes would be down. I'm envisioning it as, a paradise, but. I think that's because I'm so disillusioned with capitalism, like how bad can it be? Like I said, smell your co workers, he looks like someone I would not want to sit next to in a meeting. He'd be that co worker. Oh, yeah. He's, no. I know that guy. I've worked with him before. No. He's Creed from The Office. He's like growing his like mung beans or whatever in a desk. A lot of the evil in the world, like all the greed, and all the people, they're all working corporate jobs. this is where the horrors are. And they're like, these fake corporate jobs. Nobody needs me, middle managing anything to live or whatever. I'm just helping this company run. It's not going to make me dinner. It's not going to clothe me or take care of me. It's so it's not really important, but it is because I need that money. Exactly. And I think that's where our bodies get confused sometimes. Have you started finding, there are things that you, have you been tapping into, your creativity? Have you been finding that part of yourself? Yes. I, when I, like, when I was working, I had this, laundry list of things I wanted to do. of all these random things. These little things like, Oh, I want to start an Etsy shop and I'm going to make candles and like after one batch of candles, I'm like, Hey, I do making candles, but not as a business. Like never going to work. I couldn't figure out how to ship them. and I'm sure that's easy for somebody else so I've I've tapped into a lot of things and I did all of those things already that I like. Always wanted to do but never had time for. the smallest things like selling your feet, pictures online, literally. I did, I spent some time on that and like, I didn't really feel like I was passionate about it enough to get into it. You step in, you step in one cake, you've stepped in all. Yeah, really. I was like, this is and I just, there, there was like that overarching thing. I just can't imagine anyone's passionate about it. That's providing the service. I do have to say. I couldn't get excited about it in a way that men online needed me to be, to be like, to make the money that you want to make off it. You can not, you can not have your heart in it, and yeah, you can make money, but if you really, you really have to sell those pictures. thank God my parents know I'm doing this already, so this isn't like a weird thing that they're gonna listen to this. They're never going to be able to figure out how to listen to a podcast, first of all, so don't even worry about it. but like, all that shit, I just did whatever I wanted. I started an affiliate marketing blog. Did I do a ton with it? No, but I did it, and I got it up and running, and taught myself SEO, and taught myself content marketing, and now I have that. I learned how to use TikTok. I learned all about how to make, I forced myself to, make TikTok, so I learned the format. which I was never going to do when I was barfing because, the last thing I wanted to do was, like, learn a new skill at the end of the day. Or, that's all the corporation wants you to do, is learn some new skills to benefit Yeah, creatively, I was so shut off of, like, all of those, creative things. I had no drive to do them. But, yeah,. I've gotten into a lot of stuff. I've, started hiking a lot more because I moved to Colorado, and then I can, do that during the day, which is great, mostly because, there aren't, or I can go on all the off time. I, have an insane houseplant habit that has, unfortunately, really taken off. but I, love it. I love that. It's so much time. I have literally, probably 50 or 60 plants in this house. And it, I, it's, like, taking care of another animal, but I love it. And, that's my thing. I, like, gardened this summer for the first time. I always was, like, oh, gardening, I'm never gonna do that. And now I'm, like, well, let me grow sunflowers from scratch anyway. Let me, come scratch from seeds. I'm a good gardener. I grew marigolds from seeds this year and I, harvested all the seeds from them and I'm gonna, it's, very wholesome and I, love doing that. all this shit that I just, never had the energy for I did and it, I'm probably gonna start a sub stack at some point if you're listening, subscribe to it when I do it because writing has always been a passion of mine but I, forgot. Well, that's why we started this because it was like, we used to like to do things and we fucking hate it now. And it's we got it. We got to get that back. Because at one point we liked to write and we liked to create. And then it was like, were you asking me or was it Elyssa asking me, Jamie, last week? It was like, what are your hobbies? And I literally couldn't think of anything. I think we were talking about that, right? And then Elyssa was like, I go to work baking. And you were like, oh yeah, I guess that is. But that's what I mean. Like, I had to be reminded. I was like, I don't know. I go to work. And you just listed so many things. Yeah. I, I always talk about how I was just telling my partner about this, like before, like the moment Rebecca and I, we always wanted to do a business together. And the moment that we started meeting to talk about it, just to see. It's like my brain just opened up and was like, Whoa, it's like my brain was in a coma for who knows how long, probably like 13, 15 years, you know, however long I've been in the workforce and was like, Whoa, and then it was like creativity was just pouring out of both of us and like I still can't stop. I still feel like so creative. And I always thought I'm just not a creative person. Like, no, I'm just not creative. I'm a writer. I'm an editor. But like, it's not creative. I'm not creative. I'm doing personal finance SEO content, affiliate marketing content. I'm not creative. But now it's like, wow, now I feel like I've seen a side of me that, I haven't seen since I was, like, a teenager almost. It's insane. I was just gonna say, the way she was describing things, it sounds almost like a little kid experiencing the world. Yeah. That's what it feels like. Like, just to rediscover all this shit. With that little voice inside your head that told you, I'm, you're ruining your life. Little kids don't worry about 401ks. I just highly recommend if anyone, Can do it and take the time. I know this is like a really weird economy and job market to do that in and take the leap, which is interesting, but it's invaluable you gotta get chickens next because eggs are too expensive, so you're gonna have to raise some chickens now. Hey, she's setting boundaries, Rebecca. Who's eating all these fucking eggs? I guess as a person who doesn't like eggs, I do not understand, aside from businesses and restaurants and like bakeries. Why this is a problem for people. Just eat less fucking eggs. I don't, like, what do you do? Eggs are gross. If you think about them too much, eggs are disgusting. I'm not, like, an egg person. So, like, okay. Good luck with those expensive eggs. When I think about all day and I feel like, you know, Jamie, what you were saying, just you sitting down and talking about something creatively, like just sitting down and saying all of this out loud and talking through it is like, Putting all of it in perspective. Yeah, and it's like therapeutic too. And that's why we do this. Because we know, we have so many friends like you Madeline, that like By the way, that's what I was gonna say, is you and I have to be friends now, so we can have our, okay. Sorry, private talks about Rebecca. but yeah, we have so many friends that, that feel the same, and it is, it's I'm not saying, people are, like, just now, getting burnt out. But it's, I guess maybe that's just the age we're at now, where like all of our peers, like it's just, it's all coming to that head of like we're literally looking middle age in the eye and being, and like taking stock on what we've fucking done and the answer is nothing. Yeah. And I think it's just like We could have kept the blinders on a little longer, but at least for me, and I noticed this a lot, COVID changed how people think about systems, and like, without, without COVID and like lockdown, I really genuinely thought before then, nothing can change fundamentally about the way I work, or the way that companies work, or the way, the way the workforce is, I truly believe nothing would make a big leap like that, And COVID just blew everything out of the water, like workers have so much more power now and feel so like they have so much more power because they understand that like they don't have to go to that office and spend 40 hours in a building. And that's just like the simplest thing remote work and a commute that you're not really getting paid for, everybody realized, they don't have to do it that way. And it's just because capitalism and companies say we have to do this. We have to work in person. It's Actually, we don't. My favorite is always We really don't. But that's how we've always done it. You know how many times I was told that in my career? Yeah, me too. I would just roll my eyes and be like, do you not see that, you're the problem? It's but that's how we've always done it. But this is broken, or, but this takes too, this takes so much longer, it could be so much simpler if we just, Yes. I just don't know. There's this group, this, these people in the world who think like that, right? this is the way it has always been, so it should continue this way, and I think this is kind of the problem of like, America right now. A lot of people want to keep it the same way, or turn it back a hundred or fifty years, and I just want to stay to them. When has that ever worked out for anybody? Doing things the same way just because you've always done them the same way. In history, when has that ever worked out? And that person has, like, when have you ever come out on top? Resisting change and resisting, new ideas. Never. Someone will be like, ooh, actually, I don't, it doesn't happen. we're evolving, the world's evolving, everything is changing. let's just get the fuck up to speed, right? But also what sucks is, yeah, I think, like, it's, it's, I think so many companies did see, well, first of all, I think everybody's like, oh, wow, it's okay, people can work from home, we don't all have to pay for expensive, ridiculous office buildings, and, all the stuff that goes into that, because even for the company, it's more expensive for them to have, a physical location, but the problem with that is, And even just now, some of it's happening. I know it's already happened, but like, they're changing it back. And they're like, okay, now everybody has to start coming in again. And it's for what? And you know damn well. It's not for collaboration, or like to get out of the house, it's exactly what you said. We've spent all this money buying all these buildings, or leasing all these buildings, and this is a problem for us, that we're not using them. There's no escaping it. There's no escaping capitalism. It's inspiring. Hearing what you're doing is inspiring. I know not everyone can do it, but at least maybe taking the time to carve out some of their time, or setting better work boundaries, or just trying to regain some of that self and control back, it's inspiring. Boundaries for sure. Thank you for being so open about it. We are, thank you for so much for taking the time to talk to us. It was genuinely a delight. I love this journey for you. Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing it with us. And, we Wish you nothing but the best of luck and can't wait to talk to you again soon because this sounds wonderful and I'm so glad you're doing this and being a good example. Thanks for having me and giving me the opportunity to like talk about this. Chat was saying they wanted to like, bottle that energy that you have. they were saying like, you set such good boundaries for yourself, and they were like, thank you for doing that, and Give me some of that, because I need to do that better, Just, who the fuck cares about anyone and what anyone thinks of you? Just say no. Yeah. And if someone's Mad because you're like saying no or setting a boundary, that's a problem for that person. Because why do they care so much? Have you ever been mad because someone, cancelled on you? No. I love it. Great. I don't have to do anything tonight. True. Yeah. And if people get mad because you're, like, mad Tourists love it. Yeah. at Virgo, I just want to be alone in my home. Like, I'm mad that I have a husband who lives here, honestly. Sometimes the resistance to the boundaries and the people who don't like what you're doing, just, those people sometimes have to just stay in the past, and that's a really good sign. Or just, yeah, cut those, yeah, cut those people out of your life. Yeah, good fucking bye. Oh, you're upset that you're not gonna see me tonight? Well, now you're never gonna see me again. A huge thank you to Madeline Chores, you can find her on Instagram at Madeline S H O, or on TikTok, Madeline We will also include all of her links to, to her socials in the show notes and when she decides to roll out her substack or her podcast and we will definitely have her back as well. And thank you guys for taking the time to be here. Yeah. this was really great. you guys had so much to say in the chat. Like we, yeah, we definitely tried to. Bring your questions in and like your comments and everything. So we really appreciate it Thanks for listening and thanks for hanging in there with us, we'll see you next week

The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie Young.

And me, Rebecca McCracken. You can find all our episodes, plus show notes, at burnoutcollective. com.

Follow the discord link on our website to join the burnout community. You can also find us on TikTok and Instagram.

If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode or have questions or feedback. You can email us at podcast at burnout collective. com.