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Full disclosure, it is a high pain day, and I may or may not have taken a painkiller before this, and The painkiller. My brain literally went, I went, Oh, I hope her Roomba and mop fall in love like a fucking high person.

Jamie: 0:16

I'm Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective.

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Hey everybody. Hello. Hi, Rebecca. Hi happy January part 27. Oh my god It really is and I feel the longest january ever My therapist is going on maternity leave and I got an email from her yesterday being like, hey, did you want to continue with another therapist? I was like, ew. No. No, cause then I don't want to have to tell someone all my shit over and over again. You're like, I'll wait. And then I'll wait. And also I don't want her to have anyone to compare notes with either. Like, I just. Don't want that. Can you imagine the other therapist, just like, her coming back from an attorney leave, and like, the other therapist being like, Yeah, so Cindy, what the hell? Yeah, so many things wrong here that apparently you're not addressing with her. Like, I've had months to ease my and years, actually, to ease my current one into it. I I don't have three months for this shit. Yeah, that's that's really, like, the hardest part. is finding a good therapist, and then keeping a good therapist. I don't even remember what she said, but I remember the day that I was like sure that my therapist was breaking up with me, and I was like horrified. Cause she said something. Oh, it was literally just because she was gonna go on vacation for like a couple weeks. And, and the way she started it. Was very like, you know, I know we've been like doing this thing for a long time and, and I was just like, oh no, and then I was like, Oh my God, Cindy, I was like, I thought you were breaking up with me. And she goes, Oh God, no. And then she's like, okay, I realized how that could have sounded like that. I'm like, yeah. I guess we have a little bit of, a little bit of housekeeping. Mhm. Yeah, again, we are on your podcast feed. So we are all caught up in the podcast feeds, so all 12 episodes are now in there. Go listen to them, go follow us, go rate us, five stars, and, What this means now is that each week, so like today, we're recording, we're live on Thursdays, we're live today, and then on Tuesday, this episode, the audio of this episode will be in your podcast feed, the edited audio, and that's how it will be going forward. yeah. That's what I got. It's very exciting. I'm excited. Same. the other big thing, please take a look on Sundays, Elyssa Kirkham is doing the World Builders Book Club, she's so warm and wonderful and relatable and the books that she reads and all the topics she talks about are super relevant to today and personally, it's, it's nice to find like a little bit of kindness and someone doing good It's inspirational and it makes you hopeful. I guess. Yeah, it is very hopeful and like And it's good. It's like it's it's I learned so much from her like every time I always call it my church So I always say like come come have church with us on Sunday with Elyssa It's 10 a. m Pacific, I believe. Yeah, 10am Pacific, Brave Saver. Please go follow her, and try to catch some of her streams, because she's brilliant and she, she deserves more viewership because I think what she's doing is Amazing. And, I don't know, she's just, she's doing the work, you guys, and more people should be benefiting from this. anyway, we just want to give Elyssa some love because she's, she's awesome and she's doing such a great job and we just want to make sure everybody knows about her and everybody's following her, and tuning in when they can. Yeah, she's the best. We also have, some upcoming guests. tentatively for next week, if all goes well, Madeline Shores will be coming on. Again, she is currently recovering from a extremely toxic workplace. it'll be a nice kind of capper to what we're going to talk about today as she's still dealing with health fallout, even though she no longer works there. And then the week after that, is likely going to be Robin Sachs Frankel, who is a good friend of mine and ex co worker, we're going to talk about some different things with Robin, but one of the main things is going to be just being the person who speaks up and speaks out in the workplace when everyone around you really isn't, and especially doing so as a woman, and then after that. It, again, tentatively, it will be, Rachel Cannon, who is my sister. She went from working, in museums with an MFA in museum studies, and she is now an working as an electrician's apprentice. she joined a union, and one of the things that she deals with on a day to day basis is working in what is typically considered a male dominated field, and having to deal with that bullshit every day. And dear listeners, we are going to get so much dirt on Rebecca. Joke's on you. Thanks to trauma, she doesn't remember shit from our childhood. That's terrible. All right, that's it. Let's get into it. Episode 13. We're here. Fucking physical illnesses, chronic illnesses, dealing with chronic illness in the workplace and getting chronic illnesses from being in the workplace. We're gonna cover that. Or even just getting sick in the workplace. God, yes. full disclosure, I went into my work profile, and you know how they have like the voluntary DEI, like if you have a disability, you know, you can volunteer that. I was, I, nope, nope, nothing to see here, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, just changed all that. There is nothing to see. We have our own DEIs over here. We're just gonna keep that as a no, just in case. Even now, like, I always check the box. That I have a disability when I apply for jobs. Do I need to not be doing that anymore? Correct. You need to not be doing that. You are fine and normal and healthy. I guess that's why. I haven't been getting jobs y'all. I don't, I don't have a job. Yeah. Because I, because I have mental disabilities. And if they came to me and were like, we noticed you changed it. Like I was, I, I don't know. I, my hand slipped. It was the wrong thing. Sorry. I just, they can't prove it. I don't work in an office. That's insane. there was a 18 year study in Denmark that followed around working men and women, in what is a surprise to absolutely no one, high stress environments caused a significant higher rate of people with chronic illnesses, and if they didn't get a chronic illness, they died earlier. Yay. As compared to people who didn't work. Something to look forward to. The people who worked in a low stress environment did not have that happen to them. 18 years. I've been working for 20. Yep. So that was, that was really, really scary. And, again, surprise to no one. the signs of feeling chronically ill and feeling unhealthy in the workplace. let's go over these. Headache, sleep disturbances, difficulty in concentrating, short temper. upset stomach, job dissatisfaction, and low morale. that's, that's every day of everyone's life. Yeah. Seriously. And it's just. That's, that's everybody. And there's so few companies who are actually, because there are a lot of companies that do say, you know, we care about your mental health and your physical health. And we want you, you know, we insist that you take at least two weeks off of vacation every year. And. Blah, blah, blah. But companies that actually, I guess, walk the talk, are very few. Very few. Can you think of any? You gave me that face, and I was like I know, because I was like, I knew what you were going to say, and I'm like, I can't think of any. Maybe Costco. I wanna, I wanna say that place that we worked, that we met, but I guess I can't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I would disagree with that one. I feel like, because a lot of that, you know, came from Kate, our friend Kate, who is HR director. Yes. And so there were a lot of initiatives that, listen, they would pay for me to get a massage once a month. Completely pay for it. that's true. They did. They did do that, didn't they? You know, so that meant a lot to me because everywhere else I've worked. They have wellness stipends, but they're like, but you can't really use it for anything. And really what they mean by you can't use it for everything is you can only use it for a gym membership, like a physical gym membership. Oh, you want to do something on an app at home? No. We want you to go into a gym and get COVID. Wait, wait. Here's the insidious part. They do that because the smaller the employees are That no, but really like you can meet it with a nutritionist. So weight loss programs. They also have a lot of those initiatives because people who weigh less they have lower insurance premiums. So it's not for you, it's for them. Yay! Fatphobia. They don't give a fuck about you. They just want you hungry and tiny and they want to pay less. Yep. God, that sounds miserable. Right. So that's the thing. Those initiatives are a bottom line for them. Yeah. You could get hit by a bus tomorrow. They would have your job up before end of day. Oh, yeah. Oh god. You could get, I don't know, gunned down in the street by a hot Italian guy and they would replace you. Actually, they would have a meeting first and then address it and then replace you. This is reminding They do not care. This is reminding me of I actually just recently started watching Severance. Did you watch Severance? I just started season two. I did too. And oh my, is it wild. But it's just reminding me, and I, like, I don't want to talk about it because I don't want to ruin it for people, but I just had to say, if you're not watching Severance, please watch Severance. Mm hmm. I feel like we should do, like, maybe we should do a series at some point, and even if it's like an extra episode, like it's not a podcast, but just us talking about Severance. I would do that. Yeah. I would 100% do that because like even if we do like a, I don't know, like a watch party or something, but yeah, I would a hundred percent do that. Insane. Insane. And another thing in, in the pop culture today that made me think of our podcast, little bit of a tangent, so, I was playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure, and at the very start, you start on an airplane. And you're supposed to go around and, like, talk to everybody. You talk to I guess Retsuko, who's like a little fox or something. And Retsuko's like She has burnout. Yeah, Retsuko's burnt out, dude. And she's like, you go talk to her, you're like, oh, are you excited to go on this island adventure? And like, she's like, oh my god, I really needed a break from work, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I wish I had taken a screenshot then, because I was just in awe. But I took a screenshot of the next one, which was Like I hope that I can get to relax on this vacation, but I keep thinking about my boss and the work That's probably piling up and I was like, yeah, even even on like Hello Kitty Island, dude Like the Sanrio Hello Kitties are burnt out. She, so are you familiar with the character, because she has like her alternative side when she finally fucking snaps. and not to um, actually, I think she's a red panda. But she like, she screams and you can just like see flames and she's raging. And it's like, oh yeah, that's, that's, because she, someone asked her to do one more fucking thing and she loses her absolute shit. She's like, no. so fun fact back to illnesses that chronic burnout keeps your immune system and keeps your nervous system in fight or flight. And that means that your immune system goes to shit and you get sick more easily. It takes longer for you to recover. so it's just like this vicious circle of hell. yeah, When you have a chronic illness from work or if you have a chronic illness before you work You still have to go to work doesn't matter if you come to it with it or you get it from working there You still have to work every day. Yeah, and I think I think women are already trained to do that, just having to work with your period. So I think we're less likely to take the days off that we need and we just end up pushing through which just makes things worse. Did we even talk about this when we were talking about this show? I don't even think we talked about being on your period because yes, I remember, and also I remember being so surprised that she let me, but in school, in like middle school and high school. Like, I had such bad cramps that I was like, I can't even function, so finally I was like, Mom, can I just, like, come home, and she was like, Yeah. Like, anytime it's, like, too bad, just ask to come home, you can definitely come home. And I remember being She prioritized you taking care of your body? That's crazy. I know. I know. it doesn't happen often. And no, I have not. that's where it starts. I've said that before in high school and elementary school and middle school. That Perfect Attendance Award. Oh, yeah. They give it, they give it as an award. So kids learn that like, you're, you just have a little fever, go to school. That's where this starts. Yeah. Which is awful, because like, it's not only awful for the person, which it is. Miserable for, but it's also awful for others to see that as like, Oh, this person's pushing through like at work. Oh, this person's pushing through. So like I should. And then another side of that is, and I've talked about the same person before that I worked with, who would always come to work sick, and she would get other people sick. Like, you're not, you're not going to get a prize for this. Like, You don't, you don't get a prize for this. But also, I feel like some companies make it seem like you get a prize, or at least, maybe not a prize, but like, if, if, If you're sick and you take off when you're sick, you're looked down upon, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Or like, or like your manager, you know, is kind of like, Oh, like, what do you have? Like, they get comfortable with you and they're like, Oh, what do you have? And it's just like, It's none of, it's none of your business. I should just, I should just say, I'm not feeling well, I can't come in and that's the end of it. I, we had to put our cat to sleep and I had to take off for a day and having to ask for that, for a thing which I know I'm going to be a wreck for and no good at work. I felt so fucking weird and uncomfortable asking for that. Like, he was like, it's just a fucking cat. I took a week off. You know what I mean? I took almost a whole week off when I had to put Punk to sleep. I pushed through when my grandfather died. I was like, oh, just take one day. I should have taken a full fucking week. What a horrible example to set for everyone who works under me. Yeah. What the fuck kind of manager does that make me? you're a great manager, but yeah, I am always. A bad example of taking care of yourself. You're, you're, you're a bad example of taking time off. Which I'm always trying to get you to do. I know. But I also understand because it's hard because there's a lot of pressure and there's more pressure when you are a manager because you're like, I want to be here for these people and like, and we're working remotely. So it's like, well, I'm sick, but you know, I'm not going to get anyone else sick. So it's okay. No, it's not okay. Take care of yourself. You can work from bed. You can work from bed. And they're like, you can work. No, but really. And so you're like, well, I mean, I don't have to be sitting up totally to work. And it's like, but it's like, no, you should be resting and not thinking about work and not doing this other. Yes. I, I am very lucky to have a co editor who is like, you're taking time off soon, right? Right? I'm like, yes. Yes, I am. And she's a good example of like, I'm taking my time. Yeah. I'm like, hell yeah you are. there was one thing she couldn't come to and my boss was gonna gripe about it. I was like, ah, she's, no, this is her time off. She's, yeah, she's planned this for a while just because things changed here doesn't mean that she should change her stuff at all. Like, she's not responsible for that. I've had unlimited vacation for quite a while now at different jobs I've worked. I've been lucky enough, enough to have that. And I know some people Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. That's another scam. I know some people think that it's worse when you get that because you have unlimited. So, then you're like, oh, whatever. And then you end up not taking off as much. But, that's not the case with me. they did studies, they did actual studies, and people take actually less time off than that. That's insane to me. And also it's a scam. I would never. Because if they fire you, they don't have to pay out vacation for you. do they still have to pay out vacation? Is it, is that in every state? thing, but. Because I don't think they do. No, Washington, they are not required to pay out vacation to you at all. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was gonna say I don't think here either they have to. But it's also been a long time for me. And if you don't accrue vacation hours, there's nothing to fucking pay you. I do take my time off for that and I made sure, and again, yeah, some companies, even with Unlimited, say, Hey, you have to take off at least two weeks, or at least ten days, or something like that, of vacation, because I think they saw these studies, and at least were trying to, if not actually mean it, you know, at least they were trying to say like, Hey, we saw this, and we want to make sure people are taking off. And it's just like, to me, it's like, it's such a luxury, so why would you not, I don't think that I fully took advantage of Unlimited Vacation until there was a white man that I worked with, and we had Unlimited Vacation, it was at maybe like the second company I worked for with Unlimited perhaps, and This guy was like always off. Like every time I turned around, this guy had like time off. Sometimes it was just like a weekend, like an extra day or two on a weekend. Sometimes it was like three weeks. Sometimes it was a week, but like every time I was like, how is he taking time off again? It just seemed like he was always taking time off. And it was then that finally my brain was like. You have unlimited, take off. It's basically just, and that's how I've always operated too, as a manager. you can take off whenever you want, how much you want, I think within, because I think there's still rules, you know, unlimited vacation, but if it's more than like a month, or more than four weeks, or three weeks, you have to like, get an okay, but. But then it's not unlimited. Yeah, no, I know, I know. but you also know that like, I know. Someone like fucked that up for everybody by being like, Oh, it's unlimited. Like this fucking guy. I wanted to take, yeah, I wanted to take two months off to go travel in Europe, you know, with my fiancé. As our like pre honeymoon. Did you feel guilty taking off when that guy was out too? Like if you were sick, were you like, I I can't call out because no one else will be here for that. I did at that time. For sure, for sure. And like, But all I do, and this is kind of just like, my mantra for, for all my roles lately, all my management roles or leadership roles, is as long as my direct reports are okay. So I would, I would even like, I would have meetings with them, like two weeks in advance of me taking off. They would know that I was taking off far in advance and then I would meet with them and be like, Okay, let's go over. Is there anything you need from me before? So, like, the two weeks leading up to it, it's like, If there's anything urgent that I need to take care of before I'm gone for two weeks or a week, like, tell me. But then I would also just, even make them a plan sometimes. So, cause like, I was off, I went to go see you, remember? And I had, I was taking on a new role, and I had new direct reports. And I wasn't gonna be there for the, I, I thought about canceling it, but I was like, No, I'm going, like, I'm going to see Rebecca. Like, that's not gonna happen. with that whole thing, like if they, if it's that type of job where you take off and it's like, who's going to do this job, that is not your responsibility that that company did not adequately fulfill like the needs of shit that needs, like they did not adequately hire. Oh yeah. And this was like, this is like a role change that was very unexpected because it happened only because of layoffs. So it was out of the blue. So like, I had already scheduled this time off, but just, yeah, I made, so like, because they were brand new and there was like some training that had to be done, you know, with one of my direct reports, I just kind of made her a little, like, training one cheater and was like, hey, do these, do these edits and we'll talk about them when I get back. Or, you know, Help the other editor with this stuff and do what she says, basically, but yeah, I just make sure that my direct reports are okay. Like everyone else that needs things from me, like, you're going to have to wait. right. What's the longest you've taken off unexpectedly for being sick? Oh, COVID. When I got back from visiting you. I know. didn't I take off three weeks? You were really sick. I was really sick. So it was my first time getting COVID. You took off a whole week. Yeah. because I think it was about two, or about three weeks. It ended up, so I took off a week, and then I wasn't better, and I was like, should I just go back? And I was like, no. So I took off the second week, and then the third week, I feel like I was feeling better the third week, and I just felt like I might as well, I was like, I might as well just like take the extra time, just because I wasn't a hundred, but I know Even when I went back after three weeks, I wasn't 100, so, it was good. And some of that, honestly, I probably, I probably took that third week because of burnout, too. Because, like, on top of it, I was already super burnt out. so, yeah. So three weeks. That's pretty good. Yeah. I, I was, I want to say a week, except that's not true. I had, like, pneumonia, pneumonia. Not like the fun walking kind like actual pneumonia and I had my laptop at home And I just was sitting with pneumonia in bed fucking working. So That's not even a week. And didn't you too, didn't you have like a, a surgery as well and then that was a whole thing? Oh, that's right. I had a surgery and then I had an unexpected follow up surgery that I had to have immediately after, and was calling my boss crying, going, I have to go to the hospital, right now. I'm so sorry. I'm apologizing for being rushed to the hospital. Yep. Something sounds like you get taken care of like you. Mm hmm. I'll try to get back to work by tomorrow This was I could slap you. I did slap you so many times. I could slap me I would slap me. A whole ass surgery that I had to be put to sleep for, I was gonna show up back up to work. I, oh my god, my gallbladder burst. I, I said, I remember sending my boss like a picture of my hospital bracelet to prove like, hey, I actually am really, really, really fucking sick because I was afraid they weren't going to believe me. That's dumb. When I went into labor, when I went into labor, I'd be like, hey guys, I, I felt guilty for all of these Wasn't that planned, though? I'm apologizing for Like No. No. She was in emergency C section. Oh, that's right. Sorry. I mean, in labor. Yeah. She was, like, almost two months early, so Yeah. I'm apologizing for having an emergency baby. What the fuck is wrong with us? I don't know, man. I think, I think I was doing great with the whole taking time off when I needed it. But like, but that took me a long time and it took me seeing a lot of, a lot of different, a lot of different people maybe abusing the system of unlimited time off a little bit, I think, for me to be like Oh my god, yes. I should take time off. And, and the thing is, what do we tell our direct reports? Yes, any time you need it, please take off. If you're sick, if you have a cold, please take off. Like, don't do that to yourself. No. That's right. So I got those, those hives. Oh, that was your hives? Yeah. What was that? I think it was like Chris, was it Christmas of 2020 or Christmas of 2021? I think it was the worst year. I think it was 2020. But you, you also were the one to tell me that's what was happening to me. Do you remember that? I remember that phone call so clearly. Do you remember that at all? I was streaming the ending of Fran Bow and as I was streaming my hands were kind of like swollen And I was like, that's really weird, but I was just like, all right, just streaming I'm just gonna do this and just contemplate this game And it was the allergic reaction. Yeah, it was the well being. Yeah. Yeah, that was fucking scary It was like insane I didn't know what happened and then I remember I called you like after and I was like dude the weirdest thing I was Like and honestly like my scalp itches a little bit and I don't know why but like whatever You And then I think what happened was, I took a shower. I was like, maybe there's like something from like clothes I was wearing or something. So I like took a shower and I get out of the shower and it wasn't a lot at first, but I had these like red patches and I've honestly, I had never had hives before. Like I have allergies, but not like usually like skin allergies. so I was like, Like, is this hives, like, I guess? So then I told you, I was like, I think I have hives. It was just a little bit. And you were, of course, doing your Google fu, and you were like, da da da da da. And you were, like, looking up a bunch of things. And then all of a sudden, it was quiet, and you go, you go, Oh my God, Jamie. And, like, whenever you go, Jamie, or whenever I get a text that's just my name in all caps, you know, like, I know it's bad. You're like, Oh my God, Jamie. And I'm like, What? And then you start reading this sentence to me from this, like, study and it's like 0. 00001 percent of Wellbutrin users, and I had been on it for over a month, which is the thing, so it didn't occur to either of us. That it would be from that because I had already been on it for so long. Yeah, it was like over a month And you were like have late onset anaphylaxis and allergic reactions. Yeah Like oh great, and then it got so it was my entire body was covered in hives Like, it was insane. They were on the bottoms of my feet. They were in places I don't even want to talk about. It was literally all over my head and my scalp. I think I have a picture. But did you go to work? Did you go to work the next day? You did not. I did not go to work. So, this was actually over This was over like a holiday break. So I think I was just trying to give you credit. No, I know, I know, I know. I do remember thinking, however, like, I could be taking this time off, you know? but we're already off for holiday break. And so like, that's how I spent my like, pandemic Christmas, which was already miserable. Yeah. Even more miserable. But, yeah. Here's what kills me. When Emily had to go to the hospital, not once was I like, Hey work, sorry. I was like, fuck you guys. You'll hear from me when you hear from me. Not once was I like apologetic or like, I'll try to get in. I was like, I don't care how long this fucking takes. I will quit this job. But when it's for yourself and you just get sicker. Yeah. I just have to teach you the ways, Rebecca. I'm slowly trying to get you to, you, you did take more days off, right? Don't you take like I've scheduled them. Yes, because you're always like you and so instead of me getting to that point where I'm like I'm going to kill myself for everyone. I've scheduled at least once a month Either a full day or a half day What does this half day bullshit first? You're not doing it, right? no, those are the days We have the editor happy hour and that's the good stuff and I don't want to miss that. So I think that's where the gossip The truth comes out so I've started scheduling them out so I don't get to the point of snapping, which you encouraged me to do, and you were 100 percent right on that one, Listen, she told me she didn't want to talk about it, but um, Rebecca and her family have to put Their cat's asleep on Saturday, and that's very sad. Yep, it is. But we're not talking about it. Yep, we can talk about it. I'm not, I'm, I, but I did take off because I know I'm not going to be in my right, in like the right frame of mind. And before I would have just honestly tried to schedule it and power through. Yeah. And I didn't this time. So I am, there is growth. How does like, I want you to talk a little bit about like, your husband, like, is he good about taking time off when he's not well? No, absolutely the fuck not. No, he's terrible at it. We're both terrible at it. We will just be like, I feel like shit. I know, but he also works in like a high stress job. He's IT, he's in one of those jobs where it's like, if something breaks, it breaks for a very expensive company. so I'm just like, you should. Take time off, which you're not, he's like, no, it's fine. But he's like, I work remote. He feels guilty too. And the job market is so bad. He's worried he's going to get laid off or like. Replaced. That's miserable. It's, I know, it's, it's scary. That, especially, is scary, like, if you are in a bad job market and you're sick, you're like, I'm gonna show up because they're trying to decide who to lay off. Gosh, I wish Elyssa was here cuz Elyssa was like, doing. Oh, sorry. I forgot I can ask you a question. You can hear me. Elyssa, when you were In that whole will they or won't they with the layoff thing, were there days where you're like, I probably shouldn't take off? Did you feel like they would notice and maybe hold that against you in the end? Because I, I know myself and I would. Or like, did you, did you have days that you worked two hours some days? See, that's how you do it, Rebecca. That's how you do it. That's amazing. That's so good. But that's like, You are an inspiration. Yeah. Cause I mean, I think that crossed my mind when I had COVID and was taking off because I was like, Oh, this is so long and I can't believe I have COVID. They just did all these layoffs and I have this role change. But it was like, I think at that point I was just like, I'm just going to take it off. They laid me off. Yeah. So be it. That's a good thought. Elyssa was like, I already knew that the decisions were made by that point. Okay, so Elyssa has a healthier, relationship with her body in time off. Good job. Good job, Elyssa. Yeah. Back to like chronic illnesses, when you get one or if you have one, or if one flares up in a high stress, toxic job. It still follows you, even if you get a new fucking job, and you like this job better, and this job is better. It's still there. You may not have as many flare ups, but it's still there, and so now you're fucked. Yeah. And even though, like, maybe you're in a healthier, better place, and maybe The new company that isn't a shitshow, is a little more caring and understanding about these things, so maybe you have more time off, or you have a, you know, I don't know, a stipend that you can use for something that really helps with this thing that maybe you couldn't afford otherwise, really. It's still there and it's still gonna affect you. Like, it's not gonna go away. Yeah. You have to find that person who you work with, who you trust enough to be like, Hey, I'm sick today. Or like, Hey, I've got a flare and I'm gonna be in the bathroom. I can't make this meeting, but you can text from the bathroom. Like, that's if you don't have a Workplace where you can do that and both I've had both it's awful It's awful when you're just trying to hide it and get by and you don't have anyone you can really confide it because you know If you say anything to hold it against you It's invaluable being at a workplace where you can be sick and have someone who understands and can at least like And even if that's just, like, your HR person, like, that's probably, like, Because hell. Watch the HR person be like, yeah, I also have IBS. I'm sure that happens. Like, I'm sure that has, has that ever happened to you? You've probably never gone to HR with that. Oh, are you fucking kidding? No, the only time I had to go to HR was when it was at that really bad place and it was so bad that I had to get, I think I talked about it here at the, the shit slip, which gave me permission to leave work and go home. The poop permission slip is what you call it. The poop permission slip. And just get sick all over my own house. That should be the emote of ours. Poop permission slip. Yeah, that's the only time. And, oh, no, actually, that's not true. I had to tell Kate that I had IBS when the fucking Yahoo boys were just like, Hey, we're gonna stay in a hostel. We're gonna stay in a hostel and, we're all gonna share. Is that like the woo girls? The Yahoo boys? Yes, the Yahoo boys. The pants splitter Yahoo boys. You know, the Yahoo boys. They're like, let's stay in a hostel all together. Wouldn't that be fun? Wouldn't that be Yes! There will be a thin piece of material separating your bunk from everyone else's. And I'm like, I'm not You're like, bunk? So I had to go to Kate. Like, what? Yes. I had to go to Kate and be like, Kate, I can't. I, I cannot. I have to have There are bunk beds, but we're removing all of them so that we can all sleep on the floor together and sleep in peace. I know. Can you imagine? I'm not sharing. No, but like having to share a bathroom with coworkers is humiliating. Sharing a bathroom and a bed with me. Overnight. Yeah, you don't count. Like you would not tell anyone that I did that, that like a person, you're like, you don't count. No, but like that's, you're the person that I was able to trust and be like, yeah, hey, yeah, I get sick. it's just, oh, sorry to tangent again, but invisible chronic illnesses like arthritis or s danlos or celiac's disease. Mm-hmm Immunosuppressive disorders, that and mental can't be seen. Mental issues. Yep. You feel like shit, but because nothing looks wrong, you're met with suspicion. Mm-hmm It's like, and it's not taken as seriously. Like, I remember that shit from school, right? Where you would be like, mm-hmm Oh, I'm sick. And you felt that from like your parents sometimes. And like, your teachers, your principal, whoever, that like, they're suspicious and they're like, okay, you're sick. You know? Like they don't believe you. And it must be real, like, when I was a kid, like, of course, I was, like, not really sick, sometimes. But to have that happen when you're an adult in a workplace with other adults blows my mind completely. Mm hmm. Like, you're not, it's, like, you're not gonna believe me. Until I shit my pants in a meeting, you're not going to believe, you know what I mean? Or, like, until I Breakdown or have a autistic meltdown like until you see a weakness from me. Yeah, which then makes you vulnerable We're not gonna take it seriously, right? How many, how many days do you think you went to work feeling like 100 percent great? I just mean, there's always a low level of feeling like shit. like, I want to say never, but I don't know. It's hard to think back that far, because I think I was burnt out for such a long time that I didn't even realize it. until we started this podcast. I was like, oh, I am burnt out. Just kidding. That was a joke. I think there were maybe some days where, like, things were going and maybe we were working on a project that really, like, had me excited, but that was rare. And I, I couldn't tell you. I can't answer that. Can you answer that? Yeah. So with Ehlers Danlos, it is, like, have you heard of, tinnitus where it's just like that kind of faint ringing and it never goes away? So there is a level, yeah, there's a level of pain that is just like on all day, every day. Some days it's worse, some days it's better, but it is constantly there. It's joint pain and it's just there constantly. And depending on how the day goes, I either end the day in much worse shape or. In similar shape. Right. and all, the whole time, I have to answer questions and manage people and keep my shit together and when you have pain, your brain can't fully focus on what's going on. Makes it harder to do your job. It makes it harder to pay attention. It makes it harder to be in meetings. It makes it harder to do everything. And what, then you just get kind of conditioned to it and deal with it. Yeah. Yes, you have to use your mental energy. Elyssa's saying like you have to use mental energy just to focus and it is. It's draining. And again, that ratchets up your trip to burnout so much faster. I feel like, honestly, that's how I feel with depression. Like when I'm going through a bad spell of depression, I think that's one thing that I very rarely have taken off for is my mental health. I have taken mental health days sometimes, but not as often as I should have, and it's not, definitely not physical pain, but it's hard, it's hard to work when you're in the hole, when you're in the, that's what I call it, the hole, and like super depressed, it's tough. Especially having to manage people and, like, be someone who is in a lot of meetings and, and then, and then, so during those times, I would kind of just, like, keep my camera off for meetings and I would get shit for it. Like, people would, even if nobody, It was very rare that people were like, you need to have your camera on or like my boss was ever telling me that. But people kind of would be like, Jamie never has her camera on or something like that. And like, that bothered me that people would say that because like, they didn't know like why I did that. and that was the reason. like, given sometimes the reason was I just don't, I don't want you to see my face because I hate everything right now. And that's unrelated, but yeah, but when depressed, like. It's so hard. It's so hard to like, and that, that is so much energy. To just And people think you're lazy for it, too. They think you're fucking lazy, because just just get better. Just be think positively, and like, just go do just go do your laundry. Think positively. Sure. Okay. Pray. Yeah. Yes. Depression's very much like that. Marina said the toxicity of work brings it down to like 60 percent every time I open up the laptop. Is that my new baseline? Yeah, I remember from the job I just got laid off from. I remember every week, so it was like, you know, they talk about the Sunday scaries. My Sunday scaries were so bad. I was just like, what's it gonna be? Because every Monday, it was like, without a doubt, like clockwork, every Monday I would come in, some major thing was changing, and mostly it was something that they had just changed the week before, and it's like, okay, we're gonna flip it again, and now we have to change again, or we have to like, switch it back, so undo all the work you did, and now do all this new work, and like, it was just so exhausting, And so, like, every time I came in, I, like, I would just kind of, like, brace myself and it was awful. Also, I'm looking at our fucking outline here and we're talking about, like, I can't finish work. It's bullet points, you blah blah blah, and then it just says, you need, and then no one finished the sentence. That was probably me. I probably did that. Were you talking about, like, managing your time better, too? Like, when you're depressed? Yeah, that's the thing people are like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah when people are like, oh just mean no That's even just like just being burnt out if you tell someone you're burnt out, right? I have to tell you you gave me that advice and just put your bunch put a bunch of shit in a big plastic tote and then Jamie that has been a fucking game saver and like I have to thank you for that. Wait, where's your tote? Where do you put your totes? It's in my room. Oh, okay. I learned that, I learned that from Domestic Blisters. One tote. Because like, oh, the genius thing she does is when you're like, It's like, it's kind of like an ADHD hack, right, where it's like you're getting all this clutter in one spot, and it's like, okay, I should put something here to collect this clutter, and either that's what I keep it in, or, like, collect the clutter and then take this basket and, like, put it where it belongs, like, once a week or whenever. so she does that. She'll do that, like, on the bottom of the stairs. I don't want to go downstairs and put this. You just throw it in the basket and then you just bring it down when you go down and then bring the other one up when you go up and For days, I can't do anything for burnout. It's like, I know it's there and like, it's okay. And again, yeah, it's not managing your time better or being lazy. It's just, I don't have the energy to do it. So like, that's been brilliant. So thank you genuinely. Oh, you're so welcome. I had no idea. But yeah, that was I, I was domestic blistered. And, that's one thing that I learned from her. And some, like, that's still top of mind too, like, when I'm cleaning, especially, as everybody knows, I've been working my way out of my depression apartment, which is going very well, actually, finally, but every time, like, I'm like, all this stuff here that, like, I haven't even seen or gone through, like, in forever, and I'm like, okay, all this, Piled up here. What do I need? Like, what sort of organization system? And that could be anything. It doesn't have to be like, I don't know, like, you don't need a set of drawers for everything, or like a set of shelves for everything. Like, it can be something, like, totally different. Like, I guess just like a catch all tray or something, because like, you come home and you throw all your mail and your keys and everything on the table, right? Like, throw a little tray there, so it's there. For me, like, And this is also for ADHD because I forget things. whenever I come home, I have, hooks right to the left of my door where all my keys live. And sometimes to my mask, like I'll have my mask hanging there. So like I have that there and I just like put them up there all the time. So, I love it. Yeah, and you don't, you feel less shitty like on the days where you're like, I just feel like shit all the time. You don't feel like you're surrounded by more. You know what I mean? So that's, it's been very helpful. That's been great. Do you notice how you feel? I'm like, organization? Like, I like, lit up. I was like, yes, let's talk about this. I'm a very organized person. My apartment's just a mess. Like. It's not as much of a mess right now because I've been doing work. I've been doing the work. Your fridge did look really nice. Wait, were you judging me like I'm not an organized person? Have you seen my fucking pantry and my fridge? And I know you. I know we both try really hard. We both try really, really, really hard. I will Okay, now I'm gonna take pictures of all my organization shit and send it to you. I'm gonna send it to everyone. I'm gonna put it on discord ash says, same on the depression apartment, Jamie. Also my robot vacuum is still in its box. So when Ash and I worked together, she got, I got a Roomba and then she got a Roomba. I feel like it may have even been like, a year later, maybe less, and she's like, oh, I didn't set it up yet. And I was like, oh, it's okay. I was like, took me a while to set it up to, like, whatever. And so, like, every, like, few months, I'm an asshole, I guess, and I would be like, oh, just curious, just curious, just curious, Ash, is your Roomba set up? And she'd be like, I don't want to talk about it. And so we kept talking about it, and then, she still hadn't. And when I got laid off, she still hadn't, because I think we mentioned it on our, one of our last one on ones. Listen, Ash, Jamie was very brave and did the Litter Robot, and I was there on the day on the phone. She was like, I'm just gonna do it. So just have, call us. We will be on the phone with you so you can just get it done. Yeah. We'll support you in it. My Litter Robot sat around for maybe a month? Oh yeah, no, it was not, we're not into years or multiple months. Yeah, but it was like maybe, oh yeah, I was just saying like I think it was a month. But then I told Ash recently that. my robot mop that I got sat for almost a year before I set it up. So I get it, I get it. It's so, but it's also just like out of sight, out of mind, cause it's in a box pushed to the side, like I'm not thinking about it, but what I did with the litter robot is I set it kind of like in the middle of my apartment and it's like the hugest things. So I had this huge box, this litter robot in the middle of my apartment. And I told Rebecca, I don't know if you remember this, but, When I went to Phoenix, I had, like, cleaned my apartment up as best I could, and I was like, I had started using the Litter Robot box as, like, a table, so I started stacking stuff up on it. And, yeah, and so I looked at all that stuff stacked on it, and I was like, I don't have time to put this away, and I was like, it's just, it's just gonna stay there. So I even told my pet sitter, who is amazing, I love her so much, use a coaster, you told her, use a coaster before you Where you put something on the table. Please make sure to clean up any messes that you make while you're here. Can you imagine? I should do that next time as a joke. She'll probably think it's funny. let's go. Let's go. Let's bully Ash into getting her robot. that's why we Do you like your robot mop? Elyssa wanted to know. I do, but because I've had depression apartment for so long and I'm still working out of it, I, I, I'm not using it much right now, but Ideally, I'll have it set up so that it'll go, because you can set it to go immediately after your robot vac. So I'll have that set up like, whatever, like twice a week, or once a week, or probably twice a week, where it goes like right after the bot and it mops. Full disclosure, it is a high pain day, and I may or may not have taken a painkiller before this, and The painkiller. My brain literally went, I went, Oh, I hope her Roomba and mop fall in love like a fucking high person. that was my thought is like, I hope Jamie's mop robot and Roomba robot fall in love. So I'm hoping my cats fall in love with them because my dream is to have a cat that rides Yes, the Roomba around oh my god, there's currently too much stuff in the way, like stuff is on the box, but it's on my to do list, exactly, Ash, I get you, I get you, I was there, but! And full disclosure, the cats have been using the Litter Robot, like, they're pretty much using it immediately. I think it took them, like, one week to get fully acclimated, and it's been weeks now. And, I still haven't gotten rid of the old litter box, which also includes, because it also includes getting rid of a whole enclosure that I had for the old litter box. Which is a table, right? It's like a, it's like one of those hidden boxes. So like, I feel like I need to get a piece, see, now I'm, now I'm just thinking about like organizing. If, I just want to get a piece of wood or something that I can slide perfectly into that cubby over the little robot and then I can put the cat stuff on there. Like make my own shelf, basically. No, that'd be handy. I don't know how to do that. I don't either. It sounds simple in my head. I know, I'm like, yeah, that sounds good, that piece of wood into a shelf. Maybe I'll make my dad figure it out, because my parents will be here next week. I'll make my dad figure it out. Yes. Daddy, I need a shelf. Do a shelf, dad. Thank you. Just like, just the tools. I'm like, I can't. Dads love that. They're like, oh, I'll get it. No, they love to figure it out. My dad loves that I have a tool bag that's full of tools and that I have, I have this whole little Organization thing that I made for all of my, like, screws and nuts and bolts and nails and everything. And I have it all organized and I have all this stuff. I'm like, I don't know, it pleases my father. He's like, yeah, tools. I'm like, alright, tools. But anytime I, like, need to use one, I'm still like, what do I do? What is this? Never mind. Rob, Rob purposely, it's like, what do you need it for? are you gonna put it back? Cause he knows I'm gonna use it and then put it down somewhere and fucking forget it. So, what do you need it for? Okay, I'll get it for you. Cause he also knows I will leave it open. He should have an Apple AirTag just for you. That's like on, like hanging on the toolbox or tool bag or whatever. And then anytime you take out a tool, you have to attach it. Rob, that's free. That's free from me to you. Free idea. He got me ear tags for Christmas, a couple of years ago, a year ago. And you still never use them? I don't, I don't know him. Oh my God. Rebecca. Again, we try to be organized. They're great. It doesn't stick. They're really great. I do. I want to get more. I'm sure they are. When I When I find them, I will use the shit out of them. Jesus Christ. Manic says, as a dude, hell yeah, tools. Yeah, I don't Yeah, it's a lot. Just got tools Yeah, i'm looking at our The time. Your time policing No, i'm looking at our outline. I think we talked on insurance already but we didn't really talk about insurance, TBH. higher premiums. No, we talked about like higher premiums if you don't get this debt. But yeah, okay, so medicines and all the stuff you do need to cope with. All of your chronic illnesses and or pain management is hella expensive. Yeah. And even if you have insurance. Even if you have insurance and when you don't, you are screwed. I had a whole conversation on Instagram the other day about ADHD meds with literally a friend of a friend that like, we're very friendly on Instagram, but we really don't know each other. It's actually, one of Hanifa, Hanifa and Hanifa's friend. but. She was talking about how she was right now having to pay out of pocket for Vyvanse, which I have done, and that shit is like 500 a month. It's 500 a month. God damn it. It's insane. It's insane. And so I was like, listen, this is my experience. I was like, I don't, I know everybody's different, and I don't know what you've done or what you've tried, but like, I tried Adderall early on, decided it wasn't for me, went on Vyvanse. Then had to pay out of pocket for Vyvanse and then was like, oh, and then couldn't get Vyvanse. That's another thing, is there was just shortage of, of ADHD medication across the country. yeah, it's So let me get this straight. You have a problem, you can get medication for it, and when you do get medication for it, it costs too much, but then they're also out of it, so then you have to keep feeling like shit, but then it gets worse because you're not medicated switching back and forth and that's not great. By the time you're on it, it's too fucking late. And then they want to make it so difficult for you to get it, like, I know this is mongering and I'm sorry, but that fucking news about RFK being like, we're just gonna take, you know, just take a look at those antidepressants and ADHD meds and maybe send you to a wellness center. I swear to fucking God. that's, that's the thing that actually kind of makes me laugh because I'm like, it's horrible. Yes. But I'm just saying, like, the part of me that's just like, you're going to take a bunch of people that are extremely unwell, that need this to function, and some of us not murder people, and take that away. But, hey, there's always a first time if I am walking around suddenly unmedicated. Good luck. You never know. Good luck, buddy. God. God. They will pry it from my cold fucking dead hands. Yeah, I think that's kind of like I already feel like shit. I don't want to be in this world feeling even more like shit Yeah, it's it's miserable when you have chronic stuff to deal with Especially yeah, miserable period but especially when it's invisible and people are like it's also Another reason that I always, maybe I'm just too positive sometimes, but I do always just have, I have, you know me, like I'm, I always think, you never know, I always say I try to put myself in the other person's shoes, and you never know what the other person's going through. And to an extent, that's like part of what that is too, is like, They could be going through a really bad spell of depression. They could have chronic pain that I don't know about and it's a bad pain day. Or like, maybe they haven't been able to get the meds they need to deal with X thing. And so like, whatever. And I know that doesn't excuse people being dicks and assholes. It definitely does not. But I think sometimes I always just think that in my head because I've been there. I agree with Ash. Ash is like, maybe this is what starts the revolution. Give a bunch of unmedicated ADHD people a hyperfixation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. They're fucked. That's what we need. The government is fucked. Yep. Yep. Very true. All right, guys. Focus your rage at that one thing. Viva la Neurodivergent re revolution Seriously. I love feeling like shit and then living in fear that they're gonna take away the stuff that makes things a little bit better, I think. really that's the point. The point is they want us to live in fear. Oh, control. Yeah. Please. I could talk for another fucking hour about this. Thanks for hanging in there with us, and, yeah, we'll see you next week thank you all so much, take care of yourselves, and remember to take days off work when you're sick, and just when you need to.

Jamie: 57:40

The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie Young.

Rebecca: 57:43

And me, Rebecca McCracken. You can find all our episodes, plus show notes, at burnoutcollective. com.

Jamie: 57:49

Follow the discord link on our website to join the burnout community. You can also find us on TikTok and Instagram.

Rebecca: 57:56

If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode or have questions or feedback. You can email us at podcast at burnout collective. com.