elyssa: 0:00

it was like years later that it hit me all at once and I was like, Rebecca was right. That's exactly right. Don't

jamie: 0:04

tell her that. See? Now, aw, look what you did.

elyssa: 0:07

God

jamie: 0:07

damn it.

elyssa: 0:08

See?

jamie: 0:09

Now she's happy. She thinks she did something good.

0:15

I'm Jamie. And I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective. So this is episode 10, and what a perfect occasion for us to bring on one of our favorite people, Elyssa.

elyssa: 0:33

You're my favorite people.

0:35

Elyssa is over at the World Builders Book Club. She also streams on Twitch. Elyssa, you stream Fridays now?

elyssa: 0:41

Fridays at 4 p. m. Yes. Mountain time. So I think that's 3 Pacific. 3 p. m. Pacific. Yep.

0:47

Thank you for joining us. Thank you. This was exciting. I'm like

elyssa: 0:50

excited.

0:51

Elyssa originally pitched us on this idea and we were super excited to have her as our first guest because she wanted to discuss surviving unemployment and searching for a job. which I think a lot of us are currently either dealing with or have times we're dealing with that. it could not be more perfect time before we jump into it. I just wanted to remind you that we have a discord. Where we post job opportunities that we're aware of, contract opportunities we're aware of. We just share back and forth, please feel free to join that. if you need some extra support in that search, please join us.

jamie: 1:25

if you've been already following us for a while on Twitch, obviously thank you so much for your support. we would also appreciate a follow, follow slash subscribe on, the different podcasts. apps and also if you could leave a review or at least a star rating, if you don't want to actually type words, which I understand, though we would appreciate it, that would help us a ton too.

1:51

All right. Elyssa. Thank you again for joining us. do you just want to, jump right in and talk to us about your unemployment history and where you've been in the last few months and what happened?

elyssa: 2:01

Yes. basically I just recently got a job and I started it and it's going well, but before that I was unemployed for like a year and a half. And at the same time, my husband had also gotten laid off just a few months before me. it was really stressful. and that was what I wanted to talk about was like what it was like dealing with a prolonged period of unemployment, especially when the job market was shitty. And I think a lot of people are in that spot where like people say, typically it takes about six months to find a job. It took me three times as long, like my husband's looking four times as long and. I think it's just like tough out there and it's tough on you, like emotionally and mentally. do you want me to share my layoff story?

jamie: 2:47

let's just go straight into the depressing shit. that's how we do it here.

elyssa: 2:50

let's do it. once upon a time, I worked for a megacorp. And I don't know if that's the right or wrong way to say it, but that's what I'm going to say. And, they had already had a round of layoffs. Going into the end of one year and then at the beginning of 2023. we just had a round of layoffs. there was stress in the air. And then in March, they announced that they were going to have layoffs. Two months from then and it was like, they couldn't do the changes that were necessary and keep all of the organizational changes under wraps. They announced it, I think, because they knew people would find out anyway. I had to sit there and show up every day doing my job, not knowing if I did

jamie: 3:32

doing your job, though,

elyssa: 3:33

people who was getting laid off. They just said. It may happen or may not. There is a round of layoffs. They gave us an estimate of how, about how many people were going to be impacted. And we didn't know if our team,

jamie: 3:46

it was like, it could be you, it could be you.

elyssa: 3:48

Yes. Yes. It could be your team. It could be, whatever. And Oh, and then I had to show up and work. And that was, did you work?

jamie: 3:56

Did you really work?

elyssa: 3:57

here's what I did. I did enough that I wouldn't feel guilty if I didn't get laid off, but I wouldn't feel resentful if I did. That was my formula. It was like, it's a nice balance. it was a good balance. like I did work, but I was also like, I knew and it depends on what you hear from upper management, but I knew that like these decisions were not going to be made by anyone who knew me and knew my work. I just hung in there and then finally, like going back and forth between maybe I hope I get laid off. Maybe that'd be nice. I don't know. But then also hoping I didn't because obviously I was the sole income owner. And that would have been complicated.

jamie: 4:32

Complicated? She says that would have been complicated.

elyssa: 4:35

I do have

4:38

to ask how the atmosphere at work was. did it get super backstabby? Was everyone just fuck it? Or did you guys come together?

elyssa: 4:48

I think everyone was mad at leadership. that helped. no, no one was really competitive with each other because we knew again, like these decisions were like being made at a level that anything we did at that point, I don't know that it would have had an impact. Like when they were coming. everyone just got mad at leadership, which I think makes sense. Cause a lot of times in these situations, you hear leadership saying we made some bad calls, which we're taking responsibility for them. We're trying to fix it and get our backup, but the just silliness. And, and I think that's like frustrating for people to hear because they're like, I'm literally not going to have a job, be able to pay my bills. You're going to be fine after these layoffs. And it's they don't understand that taking accountability doesn't lessen the impact that it has on people. And it really isn't that comforting to be cool. for taking responsibility for making that decision. Thanks for reminding me of the power you hold here. Yes.

5:43

No, no consequences for them at all.

elyssa: 5:47

Genuinely perplexed. Some of us leadership seemed like confused. I was like, I don't know, maybe stop trying to be a robot. how was your mental health for

jamie: 5:56

those couple months?

elyssa: 5:58

It was okay. It was, I feel like I honestly went into my layoff, like in a pretty good spot. Chris and I were in a good spot. We'd had a good few years financially. And we were okay. Like I knew we had the security that we would be okay, but I just didn't expect like our job search to last that long. And that's why I was like, if I get laid off, that's fine. I'll look around, I'll find a job. It'll take a few months, maybe, but no big, and that was not what happened. Spoiler alert, which, but by the time the layoffs came, I was honestly, this has been stressful. I don't love how leadership handled this. this sucks. Like I was happy to go if that happened and how they did it was like, they shared the day where they're like, notices are going out this day and they came out at six o'clock in the, no, I think they were like six o'clock in the morning, Eastern time or seven. I got mine in my inbox at five o'clock in the morning. And I woke up because I couldn't sleep. Obviously I woke up that morning and I opened like my work email. And I was, it was like. we are sorry to say that you have been impacted by the layoffs.

7:09

think of this as a chance for your new adventure.

jamie: 7:11

That's Rebecca's,

7:12

that's Rebecca's favorite.

elyssa: 7:16

I just told Chris, my husband, I'm like, I went back to sleep for a little bit, but it was like immediately it was, everything was like turned off. And I think they left my email on I could email people, but that was turned off by the end of the day. She's you can read it and just I love it. Like I've never used my email a day I worked there, but that's where I'm going to be sending like all of my goodbyes on, I don't know, but

jamie: 7:40

I would have also gone straight back to bed. I would have been like,

elyssa: 7:43

not today.

jamie: 7:45

Good night.

elyssa: 7:47

I also knew because they had just had a round of layoffs. I knew what their severance packages were like, and again, they were a mega core, they were actually pretty good. I think legally they had to give for some people, they did this. They had to give six weeks notice. I basically had six weeks from when I got, my unemployment, like the notice that I was going to be laid off. Like I was still on the payroll for about six to eight more weeks. I don't remember. And then I got a few months of severance after that. I wasn't actually, eligible to claim unemployment until that was, like, that was done. I was like, I will just take a minute, mentally and emotionally, in general, I feel like. the pandemic kind of set my whole life on fire and it stayed on fire and honestly I was relieved to be able to give my personal life some more attention work on my depression house do more art like I gotten super into watercolor

8:37

basically it was just like recovering genuinely and it was a demanding job, I feel like there was much to process after the pandemic, and I feel like I finally processed it, and now there's like a whole other steaming pile of garbage to process,

jamie: 8:50

Do you feel like you were processing like work trauma in general, or do you feel like you were only processing what led up to the layoffs?

elyssa: 9:00

I think I was a little harder hit by the layoffs than I expected to be. I think there's always like a sense of things happening to you that's really hard to deal with. Like when you don't feel power, like you feel like It has outta your control and power.

jamie: 9:12

'cause you can't do anything about it. It's like,

elyssa: 9:14

how have you felt in your layoff? Like

jamie: 9:18

how have you felt in your layoff? I don't wanna, how are you doing in your layoff era you felt during your layoff? It's like layoff girl winter. Just

elyssa: 9:27

It's your year. Last year was mine. You're in season now.

jamie: 9:30

I definitely feel, I was the same as you in that I was very much I think even listening to episode one when we were pushing it to the podcast feeds, I think I even say I just need two months off work, I need a couple months off work just to get my shit together and just honestly have a breather and have a break and recover my mental health a little bit. And it got to the point where just shit was bad. And I was telling people closest to me, I wanted to get laid off. I was like wanting to get laid off. it happened and there was like an initial. sense of relief in a way. But then immediately I was taken down because it's not it wasn't like I just got laid off. My entire team and a whole other team got laid off. And with my team, very close to this day, very close with those people. I knew some things that people were going through and dealing with just even in their personal lives. And, that was really hard. That like brought me a little back, back down to earth from being like, I don't know, from like celebrating. but I don't even know, Rebecca maybe knows more than me. I feel like it was like, a week or two later where I was frozen. You

10:46

were concerningly happy.

jamie: 10:49

I was very relieved and I was like happy, but then, I feel like after a couple weeks of being laid off, then it started to set in. And I was like, oh this is happening. And

11:01

then I, yes it And then you just disassociated a little bit.

jamie: 11:08

A lot.

11:09

a lot. I had a, like I had a period

elyssa: 11:11

of that for sure.

11:12

Rebecca, I made this on campus at three in the morning. What do you think?

jamie: 11:17

Oh, wow. she was like treating me like I was like her kindergartner. it's really good. Jamie pat me on the head.

elyssa: 11:25

okay, let's talk about how to survive unemployment because this was hard for me. And I'm actually just now like having a job again. I'm like, oh, this is what it's like to have structure in my life because even though I have 40 less hours a week, I feel like I'm much more functional and I hate that. I hate that. I don't like that. I hate to admit that, but it's true that I have not been able to create anything more than like the most bare minimum structure in my life when it's just me, like when I don't have a job or whatever. And that was really frustrating because, and I think that's what's hard is like you have all this extra time, but you like, one, you're dealing with the emotional fallout of losing your job and feeling really stressed and scared. And then also too, you have a bunch of lifestyle changes. that was really frustrating was like, even though I was unemployed and I had all this time, I was like, what am I going to do? I've gone on vacation. The

jamie: 12:21

layoff vacation. It's like a layoff moon.

elyssa: 12:24

I have two kids.

jamie: 12:25

you have two kids.

elyssa: 12:26

you just feel like you have to tighten the belt and there's like fewer things that you can do. And it's like hard sometimes, like I did have to change a lot of what my thinking to get more frugal because in a lot of ways I was like the extra resource I had in my life Was money we had enough that I could do things like hire a cleaner or get like a meal delivery service to make life a little more easy, easier and doable. And now it was like, it was just a very big, like shift. And I tried to do it slowly. again, cause I had some time because I had severance, which I realized is like a very big privilege. I really honestly want to keep it very grounded too. If I know for most people, like what we're talking about would be devastating. And I do, that was something that helped me was like, I'm actually okay. And it would, it's like a dick move to myself to panic when I don't need to. That's not helpful. But, anyway, it was just like an adjustment of lowering our costs and making the changes needed to where we could do that. And then just like having no structure. It was a little chaotic. So it's hard to use your time

13:31

the other thing that I think we also talked about, when we were putting together the outline was like part of this layoff, you said you'd had these, evaluations of yours at work where it had been like 10, 000 words of everything you do with your job and basically that was just fucking fruitless because it still happened anyway. And.

elyssa: 13:49

I felt like I had to write like a case file of why I should be, not be fired and or promoted or no, I should, shouldn't be fired, should be promoted and given a raise. And I was there for two years and I didn't get promoted and I was like, bummer. I don't know. I felt like maybe I could have gotten one sooner, but it was fine. I wasn't like, I wasn't trying to be salty about it, but it happens sometimes, your best efforts. And, but the, that was hard too, because like when Chris had gotten laid off, my husband had gotten laid off at the beginning of the year, like in January. And it was literally, they had two weeks where basically the only thing people work on in those two weeks is like planning for their team and doing these performance reviews. And it was like, I was like pulling numbers on everything I did for the year. I was like, Getting quotes from people for like good feedback they've given me. It was like putting together a report on my performance for the year. It was really exhausting. And they did it twice a year. I have never been in a performance review process that intensive. It was nuts. I did not enjoy that. There was a lot of things about how the company ran that I didn't enjoy. And that was part of it too, is like when you're working in a place where you feel like you're having to prove yourself leadership is making decisions that you don't agree with on the business or the, values level. It's really tough. And it, It's almost

15:14

fatalistic to, have all of your progress or all your wins just staring at you in the face and to be, like, let go anyway. what is the fucking point?

jamie: 15:22

And I don't think I've ever, at any company I've worked for, had an evaluation process That has been beneficial to anybody, ever.

elyssa: 15:36

No. The one nice thing about it is it was detailed. It was one of the few documents I got to take with me when I left. And because it was detailed, it was like, very easy to put the stuff from that onto my resume.

jamie: 15:48

that is really cool. I do like the

elyssa: 15:49

only benefit. It's thanks for making me find these numbers. I appreciate it.

jamie: 15:53

And I always push too, because often, and maybe you guys did it differently there, but often it's only, your manager. it's like your self evaluation and then your manager's evaluation of you. And I think that peer evals are good if done the right way, Because it's my manager may fucking hate me, I work with these teams. And my team and my direct reports every single day and they love me and they can see what good job I'm doing and it's I want that in there, even if it's anonymous, even it's just we know you work closely with these six people on other teams and your team, we're going to send out a questionnaire. and we'll get feedback back anonymously and, include that in your email. Rebecca's just smirking like she hates this.

16:41

I feel like there are too many, sorry, there are too many work nemesis, nemesi, for that to even be like an option for me. but Rebecca

jamie: 16:49

that's a you thing, okay? That's a you thing. Oh god. Nemesi.

elyssa: 16:58

I love that.

jamie: 16:59

We're technology driven and document everything to ensure blah blah blah eat a butthole. basically.

elyssa: 17:04

We make data backed decisions. Oh my goodness. Have you ever been asked for data to back up, your strategy or your plan?

17:12

Oh, all the time. I literally just put together an editorial calendar today with data and numbers and percentages and she loves that. I keep saying this. She's sick. No, I keep saying this, if college aged me saw what I do now, she would jump off the fucking bridge. She'd be like, what are you doing with your computer?

jamie: 17:29

She'd be like, what's the point? What's the point?

elyssa: 17:33

It's especially funny when you're like, I shouldn't have to get data, this is, we know this. But okay, I will.

17:43

But it makes the people who have to do it. Present the data, look good. And the people, the other people, and it's just, sorry,

elyssa: 17:54

no, I get it. the job search, I was like, you know what, I'm going to be laid off, but that's okay. I have a good severance package. We have Our emergency savings, we all get unemployment. Like it'll be fine. We'll figure it out. We're both looking for jobs. One of us will find something.

jamie: 18:11

One of us is going to find something.

elyssa: 18:12

I know. Which brings me to the current job market and how brutal it is. Especially I think for people who are like in the tech and media, sectors, which I think is where most of like we, and most of our peers are is they are tech.

18:31

Unemployment, depending what state you're in, is miserable. there are some probably states that are more generous, but when I was unemployed in Arizona, I like, I was capped out and then the people who could get it, I think they were capped at Jamie. What did it, was it like 200 a week or something like that? It was some ridiculously awful low number in California. It was something gross.

jamie: 18:50

in California it's capped at. I think it's like 250 a week. Wait, no, that's not right.

19:01

Okay.

jamie: 19:02

No, that is right. I have

19:03

to tell you, because it was just, it was like, they have this and it's supposed to help you, but it's that's Okay. the, the maximum is three 20. Sorry. it's three 20 a week. Okay. And I'm like, if you make too much, you can't even get that. And it's what is, you're fucked either way. It's just.

jamie: 19:23

I think if you, I think if you make over the threshold, though, I think that you, you all get the 320. You know what I mean?

19:34

no, I was denied. I'm glad you weren't denied, though. sorry, that was, I didn't mean a tangent, but it was just, No, it is. Oh, they didn't give you the max amount. I didn't get anything. I was denied unemployment. Oh, because I said I had made too much, which no. and we just didn't get any at all. But like the people who

jamie: 19:53

is it because you had two incomes? Maybe?

19:57

I think so.

jamie: 19:58

still, I was just, I'm trying to figure that out. Okay. I just

20:02

sighed and went, eh, whatever. no, Anyway, but like the unemployment, and again, I don't know how it is in Utah, but do you have to do the thing where it's I applied to this job this week and

elyssa: 20:10

you have to

20:11

list all the activities.

elyssa: 20:13

And then if you're unemployed too long, they like call you and they like, can we, they like had me upload my resume and they like looked through it. And it was nice in some ways because it was validating of okay, you are clearing, you're clearing the bare minimum of what a. Resume should be, but I'm like, I didn't, I did suspect that I would. and I hope it was nice. Cause she was like, it sounds like you're doing everything you can. All right, go ahead. But. It is awful, especially if you have ADHD, just like remembering to do it every week. And if you don't, you like to

jamie: 20:43

certify every week for your benefits.

elyssa: 20:46

Yep.

jamie: 20:46

and the website sometimes doesn't work. That's what's happening to me. it's great.

20:51

Yes. And especially during the pandemic, when they're like, No one answered the phones and none of the websites work and you couldn't get a hold of any person and you couldn't go in there person. They're like, they just did not answer the phones in Arizona. It was insane.

elyssa: 21:07

Not fun. and then just like looking for jobs again, I just expected to find a job pretty quickly. And I, Did get like pretty, I was probably getting a few interviews a month, which was more than Chris, who like Chris is a developer. And I think that's just no one, it was a lot less people hiring.

21:31

No, they're just

elyssa: 21:31

hiring

21:32

people in India for

elyssa: 21:33

or they're like waiting to see the AI will work.

21:36

I don't know. it's gross too. Cause I'm like, we just pay them, nothing. And we get this whole team and it's unethical. And it's

elyssa: 21:43

just, I feel like the same thing is happening to writers and editors. They're like getting replaced by one person in AI, it's that.

21:52

there's literally job posts I see hiring editors to edit AI content.

jamie: 21:59

What? I'm gonna have to start applying for some of those guys. I've been avoiding them, but I think eventually I'm gonna have to start applying for the AI jobs. It's hey, can you please edit and train this AI to be like a human writer and editor? I'm like, I sure can, John. Here I come. Do

22:18

you internalize those like interviews to Elyssa? did you internalize if you didn't get the job or if it. If you felt it didn't go well, or if they didn't bring you in, was it hard

elyssa: 22:26

to be like, it's okay, next time? I think it was hardest, for the first few months that I started actively looking. once my severance ran out, I started looking and claiming, but I did, enough to claim my unemployment. I was like, that's good enough. Literally by law, it's good enough. and then I was like, at the beginning of 2024, I started looking more in earnest, but it was because I hadn't gotten results. And I think that was what was hard was like, I wasn't getting results. And then I'd do a little extra. I was like, turn it up 10%. And I'd be like, okay, that's fine. I'll just try a little harder. And then another month would pass getting no results in terms of getting interviews, but not getting results. And in terms of a job offer and I'd be like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'll turn it up more. And then there's those like inevitable periods where I like, I wouldn't hear anything for four weeks and then I'd be panicking. And then it's just up and down.

23:17

And the worst part is you're panicking and waiting for that. And they could not give a shit when they get that. Like for you, it's an emergency and urgent for them. It's just another fucking thing. They have to cross off their list and they put on the back burner until they are actually forced to do it. I don't

elyssa: 23:32

even know. I, I had other times where they're like, we're hiring urgently. We really want to get you in. And I'm like, great. That works for me. And then I didn't hear from them for four weeks. And when I finally did, they're like, we'll put the position on hold. We might be hiring in two months. And even when I followed up two months later, which I'm like, I hope I have a job by then. I didn't there. They didn't respond, it's just it was discouraging and it was just, again, it was just completely different than every other job search I've had in my career. maybe like the only time that was comparable was like to when I graduated college in 2010, 2011, which was still just a couple years after the recession. And, I didn't have experience. I was applying for like entry level jobs and I had such a hard time getting a job then too. That was the only other time that like I'd experienced anything like it. It was. Rough, and it was rough to come from like a megacorp that looked really good on my resume and to feel like I had made some like compromises with myself to stay there and then I get laid off thinking it'll be good for my resume and then it wasn't and I was just like, okay, I see. And I think that's like a hard lesson. We just learned sometimes in life of you can go for something that looks like success on paper, but it's once you get it, it's. You're like, that was a shit show, actually, and, I don't feel successful despite that. Oh, it was weird.

jamie: 24:53

I know

elyssa: 24:53

it was. It was rough.

jamie: 24:56

No, I was just going to say, I know, like when we were talking about this briefly, like just earlier this week, you had said. For the first time in your career, for the first time in all the job searching you've done ever, you were really feeling like you had to be perfect, like everything had to be perfect. And it wasn't until like you said that, but like obviously that really resonated with me, because now I'm bringing it up. But, It really does feel like that. And I think, thankfully, I have been laid off before, but thankfully, I've, I think I took for granted that, I have, I, I do have a lot of connections and I, would get scooped up right away if, a company was sold or if I got laid off. And then, this time, though, it just seems to. not matter, and it just feels if I don't have the perfect resume, if I don't have the perfect, screening call with the recruiter, and if I don't have the perfect panel interview for, these, three to five people I'm interviewing with, that I'm just not gonna have a chance.

elyssa: 26:02

and for me, it went even beyond the quality of what, of like how a, how I'm able to show I'm a good candidate. It was like literally how soon after the job application opens, do I, am I able to like actually send an application in? I realized that mattered a lot. Like the jobs I got interviews for were the ones that I applied like the same day that it opened or like the next day.

26:22

It could be the perfect fit for you, but if you're not sitting perched on wherever they're posting it, you're fucked.

jamie: 26:30

you can set up job alerts, but you're not necessarily going to get everything. And we talked about this previously, too. I'm seeing job postings that are like posted 18 hours ago, and they're already closed to applications. So it's do we get a break here? I know many people are looking for jobs right now, but honestly, this is, that's fucking ridiculous. and I'm not getting, I'm like not getting anything from anybody hardly. I've had a few callbacks and a couple of like interviews, but nothing major. And sometimes I just don't hear back at all. Even if I follow up. Which is fucking rude. It is. It's really rude. That's what I was going to say. please, if you're a hiring manager, even if your company is bad about getting back to people through the, hiring process, please make sure that you're getting back to the people that you can to like, let them know that either, the position is closed or you decided to go with somebody else. nobody likes sending those emails, but. I. We need, we need that. people who are searching for jobs, close that loop for us, if you will.

27:39

it's really easy to forget that, desperation feeling when you've been employed. And I think people don't put enough thought into remembering that actual people who need these jobs are applying.

elyssa: 27:52

it is just that weird feeling too of like it's just it's just very it's very confusing because I probably was a little more like Jamie where like I had good connections and I think when you have good connections and you do good work that's usually enough it should be enough it should be enough but like in this economy it's nothing and that sucks it sucks when a job in

jamie: 28:19

this economy

elyssa: 28:20

and it stops when what usually is good enough It stops being good enough and the bar is raised. this is just what it is to be in like a hires market is. To know that it does just favor people who are hiring workers, that employers can be pickier, they can take longer. I've also heard a lot of, that a lot of job postings are just vanity postings. They're not even positions. They just, they're there to make the company look successful to investors or whoever.

28:46

We had the last company I was at, we had all they're still up to. It's just like these. And I would get tons of applications and tons of emails. We had no intention to hire any of those people, but we just wanted to get their information and either. Apparently judged the shit out of them or put them in our little file for later. Like it was just gross and weird and it gave people all this weird fake hope.

elyssa: 29:09

and that's frustrating is like I would see a lot of job postings that i'm like This is literally a perfect fit for me and i'd write a little cover letter and I do my resume I do the whole thing and just not hear anything and that was super confusing and There's it was just hard it was hard and Like to Jamie said, I just felt like I was having to prove myself all the time. And I think it does feel like I felt a bit mad and put upon, I think like when you get 15 years into your career, you want to feel like, yes, I shouldn't have to still be earning my place. You know what I mean? earning my position. Like I, I know I can do the work. I've literally proved it for 15 years. And it's frustrating to feel. you can't get people to give you the time of day, and it feels really invalidating. It was hard not to personalize it and feel like it was invalidating of my skills and what I could offer. And to not take it personally. I think on some levels, it also just hit me. it's a little humiliating, honestly, to just put yourself out there to judge, and then to be rejected, and put yourself out there to judge, and then to be rejected, It's hard to, it's worse

jamie: 30:22

than being on a dating app. Like it's worse.

30:24

there is bias there. Like it, they don't like, I don't know. They don't like your fucking face. They don't like that one thing you said one time. They don't like that. what they're, they can have the most quote unbiased hiring process in the world. It's a person doing the hiring, doing the interview. There's always going to be like this

jamie: 30:41

bitch likes the Oxford comma a little too much.

30:45

Yes. they have to figure, you have to figure out how to game the system and game them, and it's just, you can't be yourself, but you don't feel

jamie: 30:53

genuine, it's I want to be myself and be genuine, because those are the kind of people I want to work for, is somebody who's going to hire genuine me,

31:00

But not too genuine.

elyssa: 31:03

For me, a lot of what it was for a while was like, this is something I sat in therapy. Let's just talk about what I talked with my therapist about for the little bit that I had health insurance while I was unemployed. but we talked about like basically how to not personalize it. And one of the strategies that I used was actually defining, what is good enough when it comes to my job search and it changed because I was constantly, experimenting and part of the thing that was hard was that, what I felt should be good enough was not in reality good enough to get me results. And that was frustrating because I think that's where the perfectionism comes in, where you're like, you keep raising the bar and raising the bar and it's you're not getting results and that's discouraging. but then I just, I experimented over time and where I got to was like good enough was applying for basically what, like whatever random jobs that I could apply for easily with a standard cover letter. And then maybe spending two to three hours a day like crafting jobs specifically for the ones I thought would be the easiest. I was the best fit for and I spent more time on jobs that I thought were like a really good fit for me and just tried to be strategic. I don't know, again, it took me a long time to find a job and that was hard.

32:16

You said something really profound yesterday. It was like you, you had to admit to yourself that you weren't above being like in this position. Is that

elyssa: 32:26

yes, I don't want to, I feel like that sounds weird. No, and I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it sound bad. no. It's not bad. It's I felt embarrassed when I realized. I was like, for me to think that on some level, I must think I am, like, above this. But I don't think it's an above this. I think it's one of those things that whenever there's something hard, you just don't really think about it that much until it happens to you, And then it's happening to you, and you're like, Where is this coming from? And the answer is where it's coming from is like life and it does just happen. And often I would go into the question of like, why did this happen to me? And the answer I usually came up with was that I failed in some way. And the more correct answer was like, this just happens to people, whether they're capable or not, whether they're successful for a certain amount of time. The economy just goes to shit and people lose their jobs sometimes. And it doesn't mean anything about those people. And, it helped me to think about like, how would I view a friend who had gone through a job loss and I knew she was working really hard and maybe she felt like it wasn't enough. And sure. There's a couple of things that she could work on, but overall she is doing good enough and she should be able to find a job with the effort she's putting in. It was like, I had to look at myself as a, the way I would have friend to like, not be hard on myself.

33:41

it's

elyssa: 33:42

also

33:42

part of your identity too. I mean who you are and they always say like you're not your job, but 15 years into your career part of you is it you are your job. You're enough. that rejection is almost like a personal reject. it's almost, it's hard not to take it personally.

elyssa: 34:03

Yes. I feel the time that like, I took things more personally. So at the beginning of the pandemic, I was freelancing and I lost out, like all of my freelance work went away overnight for a few months. It came back, but I know that a lot of our freelance friends are also in that same position, people looking for jobs, and I remember feeling so, Like in a way that I didn't when I lost my job and maybe it was cause I'd already worked through it with that earlier experience. But it was like, I felt like overnight, my career went away. This thing I spent years and years building could be dismantled overnight by something completely out of my control. And that's very,

jamie: 34:42

go on.

34:43

We literally watched our entire Cohort of friends and co former co workers. it's

jamie: 34:50

happening now.

elyssa: 34:51

to give context like google changed their algorithm and it's completely changed the landscape of like content In a way that companies are losing views. They're losing money and they're laying a bunch of people off, right? And

35:04

they're refusing to use freelancers now.

jamie: 35:06

which for real Big company is stopping using freelancers and it's yep.

elyssa: 35:15

Also I hate that because When you talked about, a lot of the healing that I did in my relationship to work, I did at the company we worked together. There was, like, a to a kind of toxic situation that I ended up in that I had to work that, put me in therapy, and I had to work through it. But that was extremely Looking back, I'm like, I'm glad that I went to therapy. I really needed it at that time. it was like, I'm glad. I'm

35:41

not going to mince words. What happened was that your creativity was actively stifled every fucking day. And I watched you grapple with that every day because you were bringing an authenticity to your work and we're being shit on every day.

jamie: 35:55

They wanted you to be an AI robot. that's

elyssa: 35:59

validating. That's validating.

36:01

and you and I would have these like conversations and I'm like, Elyssa, this is not your, this is not your soul work. This is not like they don't appreciate it. And just

elyssa: 36:09

I think I taught. And I think that I talked about this in my last episode of world builders book club of I think I did have that issue for a while where I didn't really know what my job was for. I ha it just became everything. It became my identity. It became my, what I did. it became who I was, like, it just, there were no boundaries around it. It spilled over into my personal life, into my parenting, it was unhealthy and I became just, it was my job and I needed to unlearn that. And part of that was like learning what place does my job have in my life? And like over years, like five plus years learning to hold those boundaries. And if it gets beyond that's hard. That's really

jamie: 36:48

fucking hard to do

36:50

hard. Job boundaries. it's easy to say set boundaries with your work, but actually it's fucking difficult to put it into practice in place.

elyssa: 36:58

And it feels scary. it's scary.

37:00

And also it's

elyssa: 37:00

well, and nobody goes into the workplace with these skills. I remember right now, they're like, people are like, oh, there's a, everyone's hiring Gen Z and firing them because they're not doing a good job at work. But I remember having my first job out of college, and I had a, probably had ADHD, but I remember crawling out of my skin, I have to sit in this one spot for eight hours a day,

37:20

after

elyssa: 37:20

going to class, and then go to my next It was different and it was actually a very hard adjustment for me. And I wish I'd had someone to like coach and mentor me. Or there were times where I got too emotional at work because I was invested and over identified with my job. and then people didn't like when I got emotional at work and I got passionate and I argued with them about stuff, which like, I get, I probably did again because I didn't have good boundaries. I don't actually think I handled those conversations well all the time. that's what it really helped was like putting my job in its place. It helped me have a healthier relationship to my job, but it also helped me manage my, like my job in a way that was like, people responded to better because I wasn't invested.

38:02

But I also have to say Gen Z is much healthier. Like they are much healthier with your work boundaries and I applaud them. Like they're like, I'm not working for fucking free. 9 2 5 and I will take an hour for lunch and you will pay me and it's just like they are girls in a way Different from the anxious Millennials who have been told that we've ruined everything from the workplace to fucking paper napkins to whatever else We fucking ruined like I applaud their work Honestly,

jamie: 38:33

but I and I was just gonna say, I think, though, one of the bigger problems here is I, Elyssa, was, I don't think you meant to touch on it, but you did, at least you sparked it for me, is leadership and mentorship, especially when you are first Joining the workforce

elyssa: 38:52

and having appropriate workloads and support. Leadership.

jamie: 38:57

I think I literally think like that I can a hundred thousand percent contribute the shittiness and like the missteps that happened, both that, maybe I did or someone else did in my early career to just be. Shit leadership and that doesn't necessarily mean sometimes it yes it did mean people that were managers and leaders that should not have been yes it does mean that sometimes and it did, but it also meant people who are managers and leaders who are like brand new to it. And they weren't given the tools or the training or the coaching or the mentorship themselves to be able to be a great leader and be a great manager. I think there's maybe one company I ever worked for. I don't even think they went through with it, but they discussed, having a mentorship leadership program for the managers and doing like maybe some manager trainings and I know we can all be like, I don't need manager training, whatever. But I would 1000 percent go because I think that's important for everybody to have that's going to be in a leadership position. And, Not making excuses, because like I said, yes, it was a lot of times just shit people who were put in management roles that should never be managers to this day. But some of it too was just like not having the tools and not having been mentored themselves.

elyssa: 40:16

that lack of support trickles down too. Where if they're not being given the tools and the time to appropriately do their job or the like. I sign off with you, you do your strategy your way, or whatever. They're not being powered to do their job. They're not going to be able to turn around and empower their team to do their jobs. And to understand like how to unblock them, how to give them appropriate training, how to figure out when they need training, like how to even figure out what the problem is. Like I just literally, I remember, okay. Do you remember? It's fine. I remember I, like at the company we were at, I remember sitting in a meeting with my manager and I, and it was a remote company. And I suggested, I was like, I think everyone's working overtime and you don't know. And, or I had heard from people that they were working a lot. And I said, I think everyone's working a lot. I was like, I should, and I said, I should be able to do my work in 40 hours a week. And currently I can't. And the workload was insane at that point. It was too high. And I said this and she was like, I don't think that's true. And I'm like, listen, I know. I was like, okay, listen, I guess I've heard from people that they're feeling like they're in the same boat as me, I don't know for sure, but I think you it's worth investigating and I think you should figure that out. And I like made us a couple of suggestions.

jamie: 41:29

As per my last email is what Elyssa.

elyssa: 41:32

And it's, it's frustrating to feel like you do have to manage up, but it is a good, it's a better skill than like just having to, I'm glad by that point I had the skill to like. Assert myself and be like, this is an unreasonable workload. Even that was a skill I had to learn on the job after dealing with a lot of workloads that weren't good. The worst part

41:51

is you were right. That's the worst part. you were right. Like we were tracking everyone's output and if they didn't hit a certain, then it's like the problem child. like you were a hundred percent correct. And you're just being fucking gaslit into the, I like, I don't know what you're talking about.

elyssa: 42:08

No, I write. I don't know. I was right. I'll take it. it's just, anyway, I forgot what I was going to say, but workloads, crazy. Just people deserve to be supported. And I just, sometimes you do have to slow down. And put the support in place, put the, sometimes you do have to slow down to be able to actually do good work. It is worth it. I, and I'm, it's just discouraging when you know what you need to do your work and like leadership won't listen. I think that was what you said is it really does come back to leadership. if they don't listen and you're, what can, what more can you do there? They ultimately, and that sucks too, of being a manager, being the position where like you have a lot of responsibility for your team, but you don't have the authority to actually get them what they need.

42:54

So we were going to talk about job applications and Elyssa's super fun job application tips.

elyssa: 43:02

I think one, one is decide what's enough, hold yourself to that. Like genuinely put in a good effort, but don't be too hard. Don't like, once you do that, if you did that much and it's not getting results, don't beat yourself up. That is my number one thing is just be kind to yourself. Your job search is going to be a while. And the number one thing it could be take a while and like protecting your sanity. is really important. And also protecting like your self respect, your good opinion of yourself. there were a couple of times that like, I would take a break from searching for jobs for a week or two. So if you need to do stuff like that, like it's okay to go hard or some weeks and then not much on others. And also expect periods where, again, you'll be hearing back, more often, and then other times where you won't hear anything. that's just how it goes. It's normal. You're not doing anything wrong. It's just that hard. That's, my biggest thing. And then I also kind of identified, like, types of jobs I wanted to apply for. like, technical writing jobs, which was related to my most recent job, as well as editorial writing and then, like marketing and SEO writing. And then I tailored like a specific resume slash cover letter template for each. And it took me like months to put this together. Like I didn't put this together all at once. I gave myself a while to put everything out. Like I was like, I used the same resume for a while until I had these. and then I also built out like a portfolio with work examples, that aligned with each of those topics as well. And that was really helpful because, I felt like I had to cast a wider net than I normally would and apply for like jobs. that I was like, I know I could do this job, but can I get the hiring manager to believe I could do this job? that's always the Do you have

jamie: 44:47

the clips to, back it up too, to show them, hey, I've done, I have experience in this.

elyssa: 44:51

Yes. Or can I, for example, with technical writing, it's a lot of, walking people through processes. after a while, I was like, oh, that's What I did with a lot of my personal finance writing was like,

jamie: 45:02

in

elyssa: 45:03

a very simple way, or walking people through a process of how to fill out a loan or find their credit report. So like making those connections is really important and talking about it. that's one thing. And another thing is to tap your network. Jamie and Rebecca have been. Incredible. It's us. We're your network. Yes.

jamie: 45:24

Dear listeners.

elyssa: 45:25

You are my network. this is us. Come to the burnout collective. if you don't have a network, if you don't have support. Join us on the Discord, we get it. We'll be here. I think that's an important point, though, because sometimes, you don't always get to decide. When you get laid off, it's not always at the most convenient time. And there have been times where my support system and network has been in shambles, or I was depressed and self isolating and I didn't talk to anybody in a long time. And that might've been a little bit, or it was when I was laid off or like I had been so busy working that I had fallen out of touch with a lot of people. I also had been in a slightly, like I'd been gone for personal finance, writing to tech all the time. writing. And so I wasn't in the same space, like work, like industry space even. So I know a lot of people, it looks like I like disappeared off the planet, but when I like posted on LinkedIn sharing that I'd gotten laid off and then every couple of months I would not every couple of months, but every few months I would post Hey, still looking. here's what I'm looking for. Like trying to be more specific. that's important. And I did get some leads for really good leads from that actually. and having a referral is great. If you don't have a referral, a lot of times I'd look at a hiring company and I'd see if I have any connections and even if there are people who like I knew because I met them online or like we talked on Twitter, I still would reach out and say, Hey, would you mind if I use you as a referral? Because a lot of times they would say yes.

jamie: 46:48

I was thinking this all throughout, your journey that you shared with us, how just isolating and how alone you can feel just doing a job search period, like whether or not you got laid off, whether or not you are living with a partner and kids, whether or not you have a very supportive group of friends or colleagues, or family, it's on you, so it can still feel like isolating, and that can get a little bit depressing, I think. you're just like, it's all up to you, whether you get a job, it's on you.

47:23

And everyone wants to know how it's going, and when it's not going, you're like, I just really don't want to talk about it, and you know they're trying to be nice. But also I don't want to talk about it

elyssa: 47:34

or or like sometimes you're like, oh I have to talk about it I have to ask for help or I have to be honest like I'm struggling or like I you know, I got to the point where that was the reality where I was like if so by the time I got my job It was if we if I hadn't found something by the beginning of this year like just the past month we probably would have taught had to talk about You Like making some tough decisions. do we start planning to move and sell our house? Do we pull some money out of retirement accounts? what do we do? and fortunately I got this job, but don't feel like a failure. If you're in those positions where you're like making really hard choices, it's. Sometimes that's just what you have to do. And it like sucked. It sucked to empty my savings account. It sucked to dip in like we did dip into some investments to try and just have to cover bills. It was just a very long time that we were without like a full time income. And. It's hard. It's hard to, build a security or to not have security and then to have to, figure out how to make this work. Sometimes I still, think about, like, how much of our net worth just being unemployed for a long time, lost us, or, the missed earnings, the opportunity costs of being unemployed. Oh, And again, maybe this is just because, we work in the personal finance space, it's, it's infiltrated my brain in a way I cannot undo. but it's hard not to keep that kind of mental math. that's actually something I'm working on is not doing that as much because do I need to hold a grudge against myself for all the money I've cost myself?

49:03

Oh, yourself? No.

elyssa: 49:04

for other people. Yes. Yes, I will. I will hold a grudge about how much money you cost me. For myself, I forgive. Graciously.

jamie: 49:12

Rebecca, just for you, not me, just you.

49:15

yeah, you, I will blame you.

jamie: 49:17

She has a ledger.

49:19

But that self love though, like I think therapy, just as someone who's been there as well. Around this roughly around the same time like learning how to be kind to yourself is hard. It's very difficult, especially when you're having trouble untangling yourself and your job

jamie: 49:34

self and the imposter syndrome. That's something I was going to bring up is Oh, God. Oh, my God. That is what I was not prepared for is the fucking insanity. I think last time I got laid off. I was lucky enough to get a job very quickly. I don't think I had time for that really to set in, but literally it's just like every day now, like every week I'm just like, am I good at this? At what I've been doing for almost 15 years?

elyssa: 50:00

Yes. This is where I like would keep track of my wins. So If I got an interview, hell yeah, that's a good signal. If I passed a writing or editing test, even if I didn't get a job offer, I'd be like, I know my work's good. it was good enough to move on. it is important, even if it's not a final job offer, you're hired. Celebrate every step of the way that you make it further because it is, these are signals that you are on the right track and that you're doing good stuff. if you're not getting that, it might be time to, like, analyze, strategize.

jamie: 50:32

I'm just ready for Elyssa to be, like, my, career coach.

elyssa: 50:36

You know I would. I would, you've been, this was something I mentioned was, like, the importance of, asking friends. You can ask friends to, look at your resume and career coach you. They will do it. I would do it, Jamie.

jamie: 50:49

Rebecca charges, though, you guys. just keep that in mind.

elyssa: 50:52

For Jamie. For friends.

jamie: 50:54

Do you, I just winked at you. I just I'm not looking. No, I know. I'm just, I'm mad at myself that I just winked at you. It was horrible. Please. Let's not. I was like, okay, we're done.

51:04

how did you weigh those wins while still not like getting something and the kind of feeling of desperation, we're like, fuck it. I will apply for just anything. And also I might be looking at my feet now to see how photogenic they are. Like, how do you balance that?

elyssa: 51:19

I think this is where you have to really cultivate your inner Badass motherfucker a little bit, you know that part of you that knows that you're the shit and knows that you got it Like and it gets mad when P you get rejected like that's actually okay and healthy if you have to lean into that you don't go into beating yourself up do it Oh, what's it like a spark? Yes, it is. It is. y'all

jamie: 51:45

are therapy nerds

elyssa: 51:48

okay, You asked me like what are some resources that I had that helped me and there were a couple but they're like specific and they were they're more specific to what I was dealing But one was the book see a complex PTSD from surviving to thriving by Pete Walker. It's a very intense book maybe if you have a trauma history go through it with a therapist, but It would it really helped me Get back to a place where I felt Like it, a lot of the effort I was doing was like called inner reparenting and basically learning how to be an adult. learning how to have that on the side. And to the point where like sometimes I would notice I was like applying for jobs and feeling really like scared or frustrated and it was almost like a younger part of me who wasn't an adult was like sitting there feeling scared because she's I'm only eight, I don't know how to do this shit. Like I don't know how to write a cover letter. I don't know how to do, And that sounds like hyperbole, but it's almost literally what's happening. I've literally said, where are the adults?

52:48

I don't want to be the adult. I wish there was an adult in charge. I can't be the adult.

elyssa: 52:53

Like you literally say it. And slowly what I learned to do was to recognize that you can just coach yourself into back into adulthood a little bit, where you can say, let's ground ourselves in today. I'm 35, not eight. I have much life experience. she's 35. young. I am just like you. Baby. young, but like I'm 35, I have much life experience and little eight year old part of me. I know you can't do this. Of course you can't, you're just a kid and this is a big adult job. why don't you like take a step back, go off, play some video, go video games, color or something. And if you can do that, that will create enough space for me to be here. as an adult doing these things and just learning like different ways to feel a little bit more empowered and remind myself like, yes, I am 35 and yes, just because I'm not getting results that I'd still know what I'm doing.

53:51

And I'm not trying to speak for you, but you're also taking care of that, like you're also taking care of eight year old self you at the same time by tapping into your creativity and doing your art and giving them something to do and take away that fear.

elyssa: 54:05

and I think this is where I said earlier about my frustration about how like. I was unemployed, but it was like, where, how do I create enough structure that I'm doing what I want to be doing? Because I've gotten super back into watercoloring. when I got laid off, I'd been doing it for a year. I loved it. I was obsessed. And that had also helped me like, really learn to sit with myself because when you're sitting there painting, your brain's just talking to you the whole time.

54:31

Yes.

elyssa: 54:31

And It's going to tell you if it thinks of what you're doing stupid and you have to figure out like, do I stop painting or do I be like, that's not stupid. I love this. That's cute. Whatever. so I think having a creative practice and outlet helps a lot, but I also think. I was reminded of this. I had a conversation with Ruth, our friend, Ruth, Jamie. Jamie and I met at one company and then we worked at another company together. That's where we both met Rebecca. But our friend Ruth was at that first company. And I remember one time we were like at lunch on break from work. And she was really frustrated because that workplace was such a nightmare. And I remember she was like, how do you stay unaffected? And I was like, I looked at her and I was like, here's where I've had to get is like this place. It's just a job. It's not my whole identity. And I leave every day and I go home and I have a whole life outside of this place. And I don't want to take it with me. I want this place to stay there. And I don't want it to get 40 more hours of my life a week. Then it deserves because it doesn't deserve that the people I love in my life deserve that I deserve to get the best of me more than my job. And I think it's really healthy to carry that same sort of attitude into applying for a job too, of my job search has its place. And obviously I need to be giving it appropriate attention, I noticed when I started feeling really overwhelmed, I would say things like, my life feels unmanageable, I'm overwhelmed, like there's too much to do. And I was just like, what makes my life feel manageable is seeing me in the driver's seat managing it. So what is enough that I feel like I'm managing stuff, but also I'm not making myself crazy and I'm not like, making my job search the only thing I'm ever doing. I think it's healthy to look for other things you can do. I started taking, I did invest in my art, like there were a couple of areas that I knew I wanted to improve, I took classes about that specifically, and I like made more time to see my friends, which was nice. You were filling your cup up,

56:29

like you were filling your cup.

elyssa: 56:31

Yes. And when I did finish my job search, I would like, leave it behind and go do other stuff. I wouldn't, I would try not to go into whatever I was doing next, whether it was washing the dishes or picking my kids up from school or going to coffee with our friend, I tried to go into that, like not carrying that into, just leave it at my desk, just like you would a job.

jamie: 56:53

That's, that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. That's hard to do. I like, I get it and I know, but it's hard to do. I will tell my Work boundaries. I will tell like my friends all day long about like boundaries and work life balance and don't do that. They don't deserve it. They don't give, they don't give a shit about you. But then it's like when it comes to me.

elyssa: 57:17

I think detaching out of anger is a really good strategy. If you can't detach, Without getting angry, get angry and then be like, fuck this. I don't have to let this run my life. Detach out of anger if you have to.

57:30

Jamie, I can help you with that later. in

elyssa: 57:33

reparenting myself too, I want to say, cause this, these two sentences like unlocked my whole life. Inner mothering is, creating experiences that nurture a belief that life is a gift. Creating experiences that nurture your belief that life is a gift. That's mothering yourself well. And then fathering yourself well is being fiercely self protective. those things together, being fiercely self protective for me meant, standing up for myself and saying, no, I'm awesome and I'm not going to sit here and pretend I'm not. I'm not going to diminish myself just because I'm in a tough situation. That's not going to help anything. And then the intermothering is, this is a really shitty situation and I deserve every bit of support and care that I can get to help me get through it.

58:21

Yes. that's true.

elyssa: 58:24

And that's from the Pete Walker book.

58:27

So I did. But I bought that by the way, yesterday. I bought it on audiobooks. I can just pause and cry. wait, which

jamie: 58:32

one is this? The cats are killing you.

elyssa: 58:35

Complex PTSD from surviving. Oh, it's that one. The way he explains things is just great. He also talks about the outer critic in the book. were you going to say something though?

58:46

No, I was looking for my copy of the illustrated guide of parts work. But the, I had that one to illustrate those pictures.

elyssa: 58:55

It was like the

58:56

workbook. I forget what it's called. Anyway, that one was also super helpful.

elyssa: 58:59

So if you're the kind of person who feels like you're always like arguing with yourself or like you're disorganized, you're like, I don't even know what I want or I don't even know how to move forward. Like parse work was something that really helped me get organized and understand, of course, there's a bunch of, there's a, there's several different ways I could handle this. And there's all these aspects of me that each think this is the right way. No, this is the right way. And. Being able to like respond to yourself with more kindness and I don't know, it's helped me a lot.

rebecca: 59:31

No,

elyssa: 59:31

I love it. There's another thing that I like from the Pete Walker book, he talks about having an outer critic and just like we have an outer critic that says like we're bad. Or sorry, an inner critic that says we're bad, the outer critic says the world is bad and I think that's very easy to get into when you are unemployed and the economy is shit.

rebecca: 59:50

Yes. Absolutely.

elyssa: 59:53

that was helpful for me because it's that is true, but I also wanted to change my beliefs about the world to be more positive and experience the world as more safe. And I don't, it's like, it was, I don't know, it was tough to do sometimes.

jamie: 1:00:10

I don't know

elyssa: 1:00:10

where I was going with that, but those are my, those are resources that helped me get through and then just be open and share, like talking to people. I think people are a lot more interested and open to hearing from you than you think. And every time that I reached out and it was vulnerable or asked for help, I always got the most like loving, supportive, caring responses from people. And It's really hard for me to ask for help. It's like really difficult. So I think,

jamie: 1:00:40

I think a lot of people are, sorry Elyssa, I think a lot of people are like that. I think that's just good advice. in general, not even for a job search, but just sometimes we need help and we have to ask for it. And there's there's literally no shame in it. And it's just, it's the whole thing where you just need to put yourself in the shoes of a friend, like you were talking about this earlier, Elyssa, just look at yourself as a friend who. just got laid off and is it's six months in and still hasn't found a job and you would have wanted her to reach out to you right away, right? To get to ask for some help or just see hey, do you know anything? Or hey, can you look at my resume? And she would be happy to,

elyssa: 1:01:26

or even just to not feel alone. Like sometimes it's enough to just know I'm not the only person who knows I'm struggling with this and I don't have to sit here in silence feeling like no one is aware or cares.

1:01:40

Let's start podcasts. No, that's why we have the Discord, though, in all seriousness, it is All right, guys, you're pushing the Discord a

jamie: 1:01:48

little too hard on this

1:01:50

No, it's our own support group. When you are sitting there having a shit day, and you're like, do you just want to get on? It's your guests. You need that support

rebecca: 1:01:57

from other people. And to play games. You join the Discord.

elyssa: 1:02:01

and I think that's the thing too, is there's a lot of healing that you can do with yourself, but there are certain things that you really need community to heal for.

1:02:10

Yes.

elyssa: 1:02:11

there's no amount of me sitting here trying to tell myself it'll be okay. That's going to feel the same as it would if I called you or Jamie and you sat there and held space and then told me, I know you can do it. it's just different when it comes from someone else. And we need that.

rebecca: 1:02:26

No, I don't know how I'm

elyssa: 1:02:27

going to

1:02:27

say this right. But it's not comforting, but it's to see people I really respect who I know are good or who I know are good at their jobs who are struggling to find work is almost comforting in a way, because it's I know, I'm not. Great at being my own advocate, but like for people I know are really great and seeing them struggle. That's okay. I think that helps too. It's just if they can't find something, then like it's clear, it's clearly something else. And look at me. I'm

rebecca: 1:02:54

Rebecca. I have a job.

jamie: 1:02:58

I had to.

1:03:01

didn't mean it like that, but it's just, it's,

jamie: 1:03:05

I don't know,

1:03:05

I, that just sounded

jamie: 1:03:06

super awful. And I know it, it didn't, I'm just being a big, complete asshole. you're welcome. One of my, one of my best friends is a 20 plus year public relations pro who had to spend nine months and 300 plus applications to land a job. Oh my God. That's crazy. It's insane. It doesn't make sense.

1:03:31

okay. No, I know what it's like. We're all in the boat together and it's you're in good company. I think that's what it is. It's you're in a boat with like really good company. Like it's not you, it's not them, you know that for sure. And you're like in good company with these people together. and I think that helps you not internalize it quite much.

elyssa: 1:03:48

And it is. I think that you can, I made that almost a mantra of it's not me. It's this job market. It's not me. It's this job market.

jamie: 1:03:56

That's a really good mantra. Just, it's not me. I really like that.

1:04:01

It's me. Patriarchy and capitalism.

jamie: 1:04:03

Yes.

elyssa: 1:04:05

See? And rugged individualism taken to an extreme.

rebecca: 1:04:09

it's not me. It's the man. 100 percent. It's the man. Always.

elyssa: 1:04:16

No, I did actually put together this a blog post that hopefully I'll finish, but it, I talked about Looking back and analyzing, like, why did I get laid off and whatever? I can see very clearly that it was economic headwinds and just things shifting in the job market and with technology in a way that was, it is just impacting people and it is hard to do, and I don't know how I did it and the honest truth is I didn't, I spent a lot of weeks, tearing my hair out and screaming like I was on a cycle for a while where I was like I would spend a week panicking and then I would be like really on top of my shit for a couple weeks and then I would spend a week in despair and then I would spend a week panicking and then I really like it was all right Michael

jamie: 1:04:58

that's about right

elyssa: 1:04:59

if that's what it looks like it sounds about right

1:05:04

but it's almost like grief too it's like the grief of having to keep fucking doing this just continuously the way you described it sounds like the grief cycle over and over again

elyssa: 1:05:15

And it is really hard to put yourself out there and just be met with rejection all the time.

jamie: 1:05:21

When you're doing your fucking best too, and you're like, that was my best cover letter for this company.

1:05:30

Especially if you do not have the competence of a mediocre white male, and it's really hard to sell yourself and market yourself. It's crushing every time you get, every time you don't get something.

elyssa: 1:05:41

It is. It really can be. I think there was a, probably a handful of times that I made it to final rounds, It was harder to let those go of

1:05:52

I

elyssa: 1:05:53

thought I'd have that and I don't, I know I just have to move forward.

jamie: 1:05:58

I had a situation. This was like, I think a couple of years ago. three or so, where I was, I was just looking at other jobs and an opportunity popped up with a company that I thought I wanted to work at and they had such a lengthy, in depth, like ridiculous interview process where I feel like I went through five different rounds of interviews and I did an editing test, and filled out a questionnaire, to maybe make sure I'm not a serial killer. I don't know. but it was a lot and I didn't get the job. I was sure I had the job. everybody was telling me how much they loved me in the interviews, you can see it in their eyes when they're like, impressed with you, and you can hear it as they communicate with you that they're like, oh, you're smart, you can do things, okay, And I was so sure and then I didn't get it and I was devastated and they actually offered, which like props to them for doing this, but they actually said oh, like we can give you, some feedback, like on your, on the interview process and explain some things a little bit more. And. I was like, go for it. like it's not gonna make me feel shittier. you might as well. and if they did give me something that like I needed to work on, but then before they did that, they were like, listen, we had over 6, 000 applications for this job, for this role, we actually had five of these roles available to hire for, we narrowed the 6, 000 down to 200 or two 50, and then narrowed that down. And then that until it was like 50. And then just weeded people out in the interviews until it was just like 20. And they ended up choosing from I think 10 or 15 people for these five positions.

rebecca: 1:07:50

And I didn't get it.

jamie: 1:07:52

But

1:07:53

Did that make you feel better? Because that would make me feel even worse, I think.

jamie: 1:07:57

I don't think, I didn't really take it like super personally, I don't think it made me feel worse. I think it did make me feel a little bit better because it was I was one of 6, 000, that's huge. I knew that they got a lot of applicants, but I had no idea. And I did confirm this because I know people that work there and that's basically what they get. It was NerdWallet. and, are you okay?

1:08:20

I'm sorry, I didn't think you were gonna say that. oh,

jamie: 1:08:25

it's fine. But, I think it helped because it was like, oh shit, okay, I'm one of 6, 000. I made it that far, and then that far, and then that far, and then,

1:08:34

Also, you had a referral, which is fucking crazy. Someone who had already worked there. I

jamie: 1:08:38

did not have a

1:08:40

referral.

jamie: 1:08:41

Wait, did I have a referral then?

1:08:43

you know someone who works there.

jamie: 1:08:45

I don't know if she worked there then. I don't think she did. She did. Oh, okay. Rebecca remembers. She does. I do not. Okay. And that's why I'm like, that's what baffles me. It's But the, but I'm sure all these other people had referrals too. It was a huge company, Anyway.

elyssa: 1:09:05

Okay. It may, speaking of which, one of the places I interviewed and got to final rounds was your previous employer, where you just got laid off from. And I realized, I think they had layoffs just a few months after I would have gotten an offer and I didn't, and I was like, bummer. But then I was like, I would have been in the same position and that would have sucked to get hired and then get laid off. I think the person who did get the offer was included in the layoffs. So it just really sucks. And it's hard not to feel like every single thing you're missing out on, but you just don't know what's around the corner and it is hard to keep going sometimes. There's no doubt about that. and some days you can't. it's okay. Lie down. Try not to cry. Cry a lot. Roll around a bit. Why not?

jamie: 1:09:52

Sleep for 15 hours for a weekend. Every day for a weekend. there's

elyssa: 1:09:57

the term like bed rotting, which I love actually, because I am too, I'm suggestible that I'm like, how can I turn this? How can I play with this? when people say bed rotting, I'm like, I'm going into this little, my bed is a bed of mulch and I'm a little fungus and I'm rotting and I'm just breaking down all the old grody stuff into like rich stuff.

jamie: 1:10:17

The most I list thing I've ever heard in my fucking life.

elyssa: 1:10:21

It's funny. I

jamie: 1:10:21

love it. No, I love it.

elyssa: 1:10:22

I'm gonna, I'm gonna find a way to feel good about my bed body. Turn it. Okay. I feel

jamie: 1:10:27

like that's very Taurus of her though,

1:10:29

I say mine is not mulch. Mine is Dorito crumbs and toenail clippings like it's Okay, That's more disgusting than mulch.

elyssa: 1:10:35

Toenail clips like bedro, like colony.

jamie: 1:10:41

Ant colony. What the fuck is wrong with you guys?

1:10:44

Say you figured out a way to turn bed rot into something that's good. I figured out a way to turn bed rot into something that just makes me even worse.

jamie: 1:10:52

Marina says we call it being a slug. Gonna slug it up on the couch. Get my slime all over everything.

elyssa: 1:10:59

I call it my plop days. Plop days. I plop and I don't have to move from that spot. I'm trying to think. I got my beverage, my video games, my phone.

jamie: 1:11:11

Wait, I do want to do a beverage check. How many beverages does everybody have right now? I only have two actually.

elyssa: 1:11:19

Water

jamie: 1:11:20

and some coffee.

elyssa: 1:11:21

Water. I've been getting in a good habit of cleaning my office every day that's good. Oh wait, no.

jamie: 1:11:27

Now she's bragging. Nice.

elyssa: 1:11:30

It's only, it's been this week.

jamie: 1:11:31

On our break, I did get rid of, an electrolyte drink as well. I did have three. Marina has two. Look at you. I did want to read what Mannix said really quick, too. Once I interviewed for a job where I already knew half the team, and I made them all bust up laughing in an interview using one of their inside jokes. Two positions were available, but the guys above the interview, interviewer, put me in third place. See, and that's just it, too. It's were the people above the interview, wasn't the interviewer the hiring manager? Because in that case, it's that needs to be the hiring manager's decision, not the people above them. Unless there's something, horribly wrong that this person is, not seeing, which it could have been, What do we really know about Manic Socratic? Anyway.

elyssa: 1:12:16

it sucks when you know that, you just barely missed it. And I definitely had some interviews where I was like, that would hurt because I did not do good. It hurt.

jamie: 1:12:25

It's just, it really hurts to go through, Like it's bad enough to be like, oh, I didn't get a call back after the screener, That's one thing, but like to go through like rounds upon rounds of the interview and a test I don't know.

elyssa: 1:12:39

One of my friends is a massage therapist And she's like I literally she's literally never had a nine to five job like me. She just sees clients. That's it and sometimes it's really funny because sometimes she'll describe her job and I'm like You have a crazy job. This is wild, but she feels the same way. Like I'll describe like going through five rounds of interviews and she's like, how many people did you talk to? They had you do what? this is crazy. This sounds like torture. This is illegal. That's

jamie: 1:13:04

illegal. I'm pretty sure that's illegal.

1:13:06

It sounds like when, like the olden days when a king is trying to find a new fucking queen and you have to stand in front, like that British group, but he's no, go, no. And you're just standing there please pick me. It's fucking humiliating. And if you're autistic, you have to put on a fucking mask and then pretend to people, which is exhausting. It's sorry. I

elyssa: 1:13:26

will even, who knows? But no, I felt the same way where it was like, I felt like in the past I'd been able to show up and do my interview well and it was good. And I found this time I did have to prepare my talking points, have my situation, task, action, result, little star. I literally, you don't, you didn't learn this. you're supposed to structure your answers in a way where you're like, here's the situation. We need to make something for this, Which meant task, I had to make a report, action, I put that report together and I went above and beyond in X, Y, Z ways and the result was, we sold a lot of units,

1:14:08

Oh, I think I've been doing it

elyssa: 1:14:10

everywhere else. Oh no. Rebecca better not get laid off. Oh no. This was something that my unemployment coach went over with me.

1:14:24

I was just explaining why people were wrong and I was right and how I fit. Here's why everyone should have fucking of

jamie: 1:14:32

course it is we're back.

elyssa: 1:14:32

And

jamie: 1:14:38

what did you learn that I was right?

elyssa: 1:14:42

Do you say when people ask you like, what's the weakness for you? Or tell me about a time where you met like you

jamie: 1:14:49

delegating. Oh, delegating is my weakness.

elyssa: 1:14:53

Delegating.

jamie: 1:14:54

I'm shit at delegating.

1:14:56

Because they're gonna do it wrong.

jamie: 1:14:58

I don't say that, but

elyssa: 1:15:00

it's accurate. I'm usually like, here's my deep flaw that has cursed me my whole life that I now have a very effective system for. Thank you.

1:15:07

Cool.

elyssa: 1:15:09

So I like it. They're like, and how did you fix that? I'm like, I

1:15:11

didn't, it is why I'm in therapy. It's clearly I dunno

elyssa: 1:15:15

if my system gets off track and it will, at some point, I will drop the ball, but I know how to get back on track. That's good.

jamie: 1:15:24

you like to see it. I,

elyssa: 1:15:25

you can see why maybe I fail some interviews.

jamie: 1:15:28

I really don't.

elyssa: 1:15:29

A little too honest for my good. I do remember Rebecca one time I was like, they asked me if I had this experience and I, and you're like, why? Why?

1:15:38

Oh What

elyssa: 1:15:38

do you do? Which, I don't know.

1:15:41

I, it's hard to do. Every CEO director I know has done that for their fucking job. Just do it, Elyssa.

jamie: 1:15:46

Every man I know has done that. Every man

1:15:49

I know has done it. You do it, too. They just Google it, or they have someone else do it. You can do that, too.

jamie: 1:15:55

Listen, we're not condoning that you lie in job interviews, but, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

elyssa: 1:16:02

Yes. and I feel like it's this way, which is if I know I can do this job and you need me to. Judge it a little bit like, of course we all do that. We find the best way to position ourselves. And I think it's anyway, I just, it was helpful advice for me of don't get hung up on the literally what did you do in your job? Because many of the questions are like, are you really going to ding me? Because I use JIRA and not a sauna. You're going to decide on a different con candidate because of the task management software, their last job had, it can get that silly. at some point I just say. I can learn that, or I know that, or just say the truth, which is I learn new systems very quickly, or I'm very comfortable with task management systems, I'm confident I could use it. It's,

jamie: 1:16:43

That's such bullshit too, because that's how we should be hiring people, is we should be hiring people, honestly, this is fucked up, but the culture fit. Slash personality and how you are like vibing with them in the interview a little bit like that does matter and to me that matters more whether or not you've used fucking air table before in your life or jira like i can teach you that i can't teach you how not to be an asshole

1:17:12

You remember the bad place where I used to work and they asked if you could be a dinosaur, what kind would you be? I've been in interviews with them and they literally turned down a candidate because they didn't like her outfit or her necklace. It was quote, too much red. Okay, that's not what I'm talking about. That, but that's, that's, these are the kind of assholes you're interviewing with. it's not you. Sorry.

elyssa: 1:17:31

I

1:17:31

was going

elyssa: 1:17:32

to say, I think this is important too, is I think you have to be conscious of like, how much am I turning myself up or down? what am I willing to do? And I had to get comfortable too of it's okay for me to not get a job where I would have been miserable. Like maybe that's okay. Maybe like I always dress colorfully all the time. that's how I'm going to show up to my job interview.

1:17:52

That was not a dig at you. I'm sorry. That was not like my

jamie: 1:17:54

God. No. Elyssa's like Ms. Frazzle or whatever. Ms. Frazzle. What's her name? For top.

elyssa: 1:18:01

For sure. They're neutral colors and stuff and I'm just like, I don't know, I wear my normal outfits. They look nice. They're like business cash. But

1:18:11

these are idiotic men who got drunk on business trips that like they threw up blood. like they did not know how to interview. don't listen to them. I'm just saying when you're doing interviews, these are the kind of assholes you're interviewing with. And a lot of them is not bugging you. Okay.

elyssa: 1:18:25

I love that you said got drunk because do you remember, okay, do you remember that one time that we got too drunk and I dared. The CEO to do splits and

1:18:37

that was great. That is my favorite story. Yes.

jamie: 1:18:40

We got, hang on. we got too drunk and what I think did us in is that I think we took like a bunch of picklebacks and that was my first time getting, having a pickleback.

elyssa: 1:18:50

and I was evil because I know my power. Sometimes I felt it that night. I have the power tonight. I'm charming. I'm cute. I'm a little tipsy. And he was, people were like, do the splits. And I was like, I'll do it. And I was like,

jamie: 1:19:02

I

elyssa: 1:19:03

can't do the splits, but I was, getting close. I was getting as close as I can. She

jamie: 1:19:07

tried.

elyssa: 1:19:07

Anyway, and then he did it and he ripped his pants.

jamie: 1:19:11

just immediately.

elyssa: 1:19:12

Like a man, he had to show you the right way to do it. It's

jamie: 1:19:14

like, why are your pants that tight, bro? Why are your pants that tight? There were some tight ass khakis, dude. I'm like, what? Or jeans? I think they were khakis.

elyssa: 1:19:23

I love that Rebecca said that because it was totally that. It was like, can't have a girl showing me up, That was the vibe I got.

1:19:29

It was like, When you just sit there and you don't drink during dinner, but then you drink during after dinner and the next thing you're convincing people to, sing tunes at the piano bar. And then you show up for work the next day, not hung over, but everyone else is like that.

jamie: 1:19:45

Yes, that's my favorite. Didn't we go do karaoke once for one of our. Wait, Rebecca, were you there?

1:19:53

I was there because that's where the Uber driver got pulled over. And Kate was there and I was freaking the fuck out. Maybe that's a different

jamie: 1:20:00

time because now I don't remember that.

1:20:03

Oh, I think that was when we went to Austin maybe

jamie: 1:20:06

for the reunion. Oh, the reunion. I planned and never went to. Fuck my life. I don't think I did karaoke with you other times. Elyssa and I, we did a, we did a duet. I think we did, I don't remember. I think it was in Austin as well, actually. It was

elyssa: 1:20:24

great. That was a great night. I do remember my core memory from the night is I grew up Mormon, and I remember being like, I am a little drunk and I love everyone here much and everyone I grew up with told me this was bad and I'd go to hell, but I feel great. I feel like this is what love is. It was great. thank you for sharing that moment with me, Jamie You're welcome. It was healing

jamie: 1:20:45

or singing like that was brand singing, like the Backstreet Boys and our like party bus limo on our work retreat. Or the leg. There was like a random. Mannequin leg or something that was being passed around

elyssa: 1:20:57

and

jamie: 1:20:58

then we lost it. They gave it to like strangers. Strangers ended up with it. Oh,

elyssa: 1:21:04

good times.

jamie: 1:21:06

Startup retreat. I miss you guys though. I miss like

elyssa: 1:21:13

having other people pay us to see each other. That was nice. it's really nice.

rebecca: 1:21:18

It was really nice.

elyssa: 1:21:20

My secret dream is to create. we're

1:21:25

doing that right now.

elyssa: 1:21:26

we're like, we should just make a media conglomerate almost where all our friends

jamie: 1:21:34

join the discord. Please join the discord. What

elyssa: 1:21:37

do you think we're doing here? Building an empire. This is

jamie: 1:21:40

it.

elyssa: 1:21:41

Or a rebel alliance.

jamie: 1:21:43

Yes, we'll do that. Ooh, thank you. Thanks Marina. Absolutely. Yes, I can't wait to meet all my friends again. Oh, I should say, our new logo, and this brain you see here, that is created by Adrian, AODev. Oh my god, shoutout Adrian. Marina, can you if he's not in here? Maybe not. And I also never shouted out Elyssa, which is hilarious. Oh, it did. oh, it did work. Okay. I lied to Elyssa earlier. That's fine. and also, can you tell us again, Elyssa, Friday's at?

elyssa: 1:22:25

4 p. m. mountain time, 3 p. m. Pacific, 6 p. m. Easter. Yes.

1:22:33

which. tv backslash brave underscore saver.

elyssa: 1:22:37

Yes. And I read

jamie: 1:22:40

books.

elyssa: 1:22:41

I'm trying to like,

jamie: 1:22:42

and I read books, sound like a robot. And I read books.

elyssa: 1:22:46

I'm trying to world builders book club is I'm trying to basically give myself hope that the world is can get be better and that we can get there and we build it. But I also genuinely believe that it can happen. I'm a big believer in that. That's the only thing that's ever made it happen in the past was people showing up and doing it. I don't see why we couldn't do that now. Just saying, why can't we all be Martin Luther King? It's not easy. Not really. But

1:23:14

honestly, if we all just decide to go back, I read somewhere. It's we could have just fucking floated in the ocean and eat fruit, but now we decided to create capitalism. And I'd like to go back to that first option. I'll, the option

elyssa: 1:23:23

for that was feudalism, which is just another version of capitalism.

1:23:27

that's old fashioned capital.

elyssa: 1:23:29

Yes.

1:23:32

Oh, man. I'm just for joining us. I got Jamie. I'm sorry.

jamie: 1:23:36

Oh, I was just going to say I just, I noticed the time, we're at about two hours. Definitely noticed the time all on my own. I am proud of you.

1:23:46

Thank you much. Like really, that was amazing. You did that the time police stand down. You did good. I'm doing great.

jamie: 1:23:54

I'm doing great. no, this was great. And Thank you much. Elyssa being our first, Elyssa being our first guest. I'm sorry, I laughed because, thank you much. She's our first. it's just perfect. Because we have a lot of that is something we didn't talk about that I wish we did, but we can talk about that next time we can talk

1:24:12

about our fucking podcast. Just you can say it Oh,

jamie: 1:24:15

I it's I think it's more involved. I was going to talk about how Elyssa and I first met and then like into like how we all first met, but I feel like that's a longer story. Okay, that's true.

elyssa: 1:24:25

And I did mention it like you and I met at a company Then I went to the next toxic company that I didn't know was toxic, and I was like, Jamie, you should come with me. And that's where we all met. it's trauma

jamie: 1:24:34

bonded for life. and you guys are like my best friends too,

elyssa: 1:24:39

I was, And I was blessed to see, to have a front row seat to watch you guys handle work. I think that you taught me how to advocate better for myself, even if you weren't always good at doing it. I know we all feel like we could do better, but I hope you know that even if you didn't feel like you were doing the best, I learned from watching how you guys handled situations at work. I learned how to be gracious. I learned how to be human and like lead with empathy without being cheesy. you guys are just great fucking humans and everyone who would work with you is freaking lucky, including me just getting to talk with you. And you can squint at me, Rebecca. It's fine. You don't have to accept it. I don't think you mean me. I'm pretty sure I do mean you.

jamie: 1:25:24

she definitely means you. Stop being stupid. She does mean you.

elyssa: 1:25:27

Again, you say that, but that shitty work situation I mentioned earlier, you were the person who explained it to me. Exactly. And it was like years later that it hit me all at once and I was like, Rebecca was right. That's exactly right. Don't

jamie: 1:25:40

tell her that. See? Now, aw, look what you did.

elyssa: 1:25:43

God

jamie: 1:25:43

damn it.

elyssa: 1:25:44

See?

jamie: 1:25:44

Now she's happy. She thinks she did something good.

elyssa: 1:25:49

You just see through the neurotypical bullshit.

jamie: 1:25:51

Very true. The

elyssa: 1:25:52

politics. The performance. It's hard. And you need people like that who will be honest with you and tell you the truth at work and who you can be real with and, it's life saving. It really is.

1:26:03

It really is

elyssa: 1:26:04

that for me, of course,

1:26:06

we have, I have someone at work who I do that with now. She's she gets all, I'm like, Just this is what it's a trick. This is it's a trick. It's a trick. You don't have to do that for real You just have to do excellent. She's oh, I'm like, just it's to make them look good.

jamie: 1:26:19

Just all right Just go through the motions and

1:26:21

I've told

jamie: 1:26:24

direct reports that dude. I'm like, all right, let's be honest to do this we're gonna pretend that we're doing it And we're going to do what we know to be the right thing. It's

elyssa: 1:26:32

causing problems in two months and roll it back, whatever.

1:26:36

Oh my god, yes. Just copy, we just copy and paste each other's stuff and then just change enough that it looks

jamie: 1:26:43

Hi mom. My mom says, hi girls.

1:26:47

Hello Mrs. Jamie's mom. And then

jamie: 1:26:48

Marina proceeded to shout her out, which is my favorite.

1:26:53

I did, Marina, I did actually have to text someone today and mention that I had to move. eating because I was pooping.

jamie: 1:27:00

Did you tell them that? On my phone. Is that what you want to tell Marina? Yes. Oh, I see. I didn't see her say that, I was like, that was random.

elyssa: 1:27:10

If you could test the waters, because if you're not going to let me be human enough to poo.

1:27:14

I'm

elyssa: 1:27:14

having diarrhea.

1:27:15

I have to move our meeting. So sorry. Best, Rebecca. Yes.

elyssa: 1:27:22

Yes.

1:27:24

we love you much, Elyssa. We are glad you came on. Thank you for, genuinely, thank you for being our first person here. It's always lovely to talk to you. It makes me feel like we're better people talking to you. Because you're just always insightful and thoughtful. And you always have such, really great things to say.

elyssa: 1:27:40

Thank you. See, I love watching you guys. I love watching you guys because I'm like, I just, because you just should talk yourselves the whole time. The little bit, which is funny. I get it. Self deprecating humor, the best at it. you two are, but I'm like the people watching. You don't even know. They don't even know the end intellect and power on display. They do not know.

jamie: 1:28:00

Oh, they will know

elyssa: 1:28:02

they would. They're learning. they're learning well,

jamie: 1:28:04

they will

elyssa: 1:28:05

slowly, but surely. They're learning.

jamie: 1:28:07

No, Elyssa just and Elyssa too was one of my, I know I always harp on this, it's hilarious, but she was like one of my first friends that had children, like had young children when I met you, and I was like taken aback by like how well her and her husband parented and like you guys were like relatively young I think still like you were you guys were still relatively young and everyone else that I knew whether it was like a friend or a family or like a colleague who was in the same situation with young kids at the time like I would just always be like Oh, is that is that how you're raising your kid, dude? I'd never say that out loud, but this is how I raise my children. They're screaming in the background. but I was just impressed with it, and I thought it was like cool, and I was like, oh wow, and like her kids, I'm sorry, don't tell M this, but, or my niece and nephew, but Elyssa's kids were the first kids that I like really loved, and I was like, I love these kids, and they're amazing, and I wish I would have. I've been able to, be around a little bit more when they were growing up, but I'm very glad for the part that I was able to, see, of their lives anyway.

elyssa: 1:29:22

I think you've been part of my village for a really long time and, that's really special. And I think that's when, when we're unemployed, when shit hits the fan, I know that there have been a lot, cause you and I both self isolate when we're depressed. there really is, we wouldn't talk, we wouldn't hear from each other for six months. it would

jamie: 1:29:38

be long periods of time.

elyssa: 1:29:40

and I think that's, I think that's important to say though, because I think it's easy when you're coming out of self isolation to assume people don't want to hear from you or they're mad at you because they don't, you disappeared on them. And I think you can just trust, on other people and lean on them to hold a little more space for your humanity, including when you're like interviewing and applying for jobs. I don't really want to work at a place where they don't let me be human enough to like, sorry, can I start over? Or, I'm nervous and I flubbed my words a little bit, or I want to be able to feel like I get to be myself and get to be human. And I think that's hard is like balancing that feeling like that pressure to be perfect and the like, but I want to end up in a place where I can feel okay and be myself. thanks for being a place I can always be myself. I feel like we can stop gushing now It's like

jamie: 1:30:25

we love each other. We love each other a lot. Okay guys, we all love each other

1:30:30

Elyssa, thank you again for being here. It was a delight. It's always a delight to talk to you. You're one of my favorite people. Same. And Jamie is here too. And

jamie: 1:30:40

Jamie is here too.

elyssa: 1:30:42

Hit on me more. Hit on me harder. I'm just going to

jamie: 1:30:46

leave everybody with this. When I was first having AI produce some show notes for us for, I think, our first episode or one of the first episodes. It was like, in the inaugural first episode, your hosts, Rebecca and Elyssa, and I was like, me? Elyssa's not the host. Guys, what about me? But it thought Elyssa was the

elyssa: 1:31:13

host. I commented a lot and you read my name. It was delightful.

1:31:17

It was a,

elyssa: 1:31:17

oh, you are, you were a

1:31:19

lovely addition. Yes, agreed. That was a lovely edition. But

elyssa: 1:31:23

I love that, the real fame, I feel like it's sad that no one said Jamie's name more than they said Pine in that. I feel like that's what happened. Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie. Jamie, Jamie, Jamie, Jamie. I'm just trying to influence, Vegan! Vegan! Fuck! Nice. Alright. Also, can we talk about how, on that, I think that same trip when we got drunk and you made the CEO rip his pants because you dared him to do the splits. That was when you leaned over to me, drunk as fuck, at the bar, and you were like, I might get some chicken nuggets, or some chicken wings. And I was like, oh, okay, you're eating chicken now because she's usually pescatarian, or was at the time. And I've been vegetarian for a long time. Vegan. Oh my god, have you? I don't remember that.

jamie: 1:32:10

And she leaned over to me and she's I really could get some wings. And I was like, oh shit. Okay. sure. And she's like, don't you ever do that? And I was like, do what? She's like, eat some meat now and then, like when you're really drunk. And I was like, No, that's not.

1:32:22

Jamie texted me a couple weeks ago and was like, I got Chick fil A. I was like, Oh my God, are you a dirty chicken eater? Like Elyssa?

jamie: 1:32:28

cause I started it by saying, I was like, I'm a horrible person. I got Chick fil A. and I didn't mean that I was eating chicken. I was definitely eating French fries and Mac and cheese because. What a great vegetarian meal.

1:32:43

that does

elyssa: 1:32:43

sound like something drunk me would do.

jamie: 1:32:46

And I was, you were just matter of fact, don't you like, you were just like, everybody does that, right? And I was like, I, no. I was like, I've never thought of that, but maybe it's just me that doesn't, it's great.

elyssa: 1:32:57

Look, just. Get me drunk and I'll tell you my deepest darkest secrets and they will be About eating chicken

jamie: 1:33:02

wings when you're drunk

elyssa: 1:33:03

when I'm a vegetarian. I

jamie: 1:33:05

love it

elyssa: 1:33:06

I'd like to get back to being a vegetarian one day when my kids cooperate And I don't have to cook like four different meals every night to do it

1:33:13

Speaking of food, we're doing the long goodbye and it's dinner time. And it's dinner

jamie: 1:33:19

time. Hangry.

1:33:20

I'm hungry.

jamie: 1:33:22

All

elyssa: 1:33:22

we'll have you. Thanks for having you much. tune in tomorrow I'm gonna be talking about all about

jamie: 1:33:27

Love World Builders Book Club at Brave Under Savor on Twitch. Tune in for Elyssa's podcast.

1:33:34

Thank you. You soon. Bye

jamie: 1:33:36

guys. Bye. The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie Young.

rebecca: 1:33:42

And me, Rebecca McCracken. You can find all our episodes, plus show notes, at burnoutcollective. com.

jamie: 1:33:48

Follow the discord link on our website to join the burnout community. You can also find us on TikTok and Instagram.

rebecca: 1:33:54

If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode or have questions or feedback. You can email us at podcast at burnout collective. com.