Speaker 1: 0:00

You got a job so you can feed your cat and keep my cat on Prozac. I'm Jamie and I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout Collective. Happy Saturday. We made it Good job us. It's been a week. It's been a week. How's everybody doing? I've been getting through this week by talking to my friends honestly.

Speaker 2: 0:30

You know what? It's been a shitty week and I think the fact that we are dressed and here and showered and fed-ish and medicated and medicated, we're doing and medicaid, we are doing fantastic I did that specifically for rebecca this morning.

Speaker 1: 0:50

Shout out to meds 2k24 everybody, take your meds, take your meds, drink some water, get a fucking smack, maybe an uncrustable. Were going to do a different topic for this week, but instead and by the way so I changed our stream title at the last minute, because I always forget and it still says episode zero. I was trying to type episode three, layoffs, and I typoed lay-oofs and I was like lay-oofs. I just bowed lay-oofs and I was like lay-oofs. That's good, we're keeping it. We're keeping it. So this is episode three lay-oofs. Could be French. Could be French.

Speaker 2: 1:33

Did something happen this week, Jamie.

Speaker 1: 1:35

Well, many things happened this week, many shitty things happened this week, but we decided to fast track the lay-oofs episode because I got laid off on Monday.

Speaker 2: 1:47

See, this is where that soundboard needs to come in, that's what I was doing.

Speaker 1: 1:50

No, no, it's like I was like hearing like applause like oh, wow I don't know why I'm saying applause Like it probably should be like oh, that would be a good one. I got laid off on Monday. A lot of us got laid off on Monday. A lot of us got laid off on Monday. The entire team, like the entire whole team that I work with at the company I work for, was let go. A lot of us kind of really felt like it was coming, yeah, but you know, you just like never know, and then it's always unexpected and it always comes at the worst possible time. Right, it's the oh yeah, it's the fucking holidays.

Speaker 2: 2:29

It's the most notorious time for companies to hire a lot of people at once. Oh, yeah, yeah, definitely November, december.

Speaker 1: 2:38

Yeah for sure, my plan is to get a job at a Macy's for the holidays. I think that will really help my mental health and my self-esteem. I don't even know where to start because obviously I don't really want to talk specifically necessarily about the layoff, but we can talk about, I guess.

Speaker 2: 3:02

I think one of the things that I I mentioned, that I wanted to ask you, things that I I mentioned that I'd want to ask you, was, like you are a manager and so you had to deal with you getting laid off and the two people underneath you and having to juggle that at the same time.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I think the first day it was just obviously a lot of emotions and also just like confusion and uncertainty. I've talked about this before, we've talked about this before but the whole like we're a family I honestly don't know another way to describe it because that is truly how it feels with this team, these guys. But I do absolutely hate when people say we're a family at work. But because we're such a family and I'm sorry.

Speaker 2: 3:49

I know my family and I also fucking hate. We're a family.

Speaker 1: 3:53

This is so rude, just cracks up. Okay, it's fine, I get it. Okay, I'll stop saying that. But we all just like, really, really truly care about each other and everyone. Like, even with feeling so emotional and unsure and even like angry and upset, yeah, we really did come together and we were like on calls together a lot of the day and we were sharing job descriptions with each other, which is really interesting to me, because this is all editors, right. So I feel like we're all going to be applying for the same jobs or similar jobs, and the job market's so hard now to begin with, and it's the holidays or about to be like once we're close to Thanksgiving, it's just downhill from there. Thanks, santa Claus.

Speaker 1: 4:50

So, yeah, so, like, I guess I think that's funny because we're actually just we're sharing job opportunities with each other. Like it's not, we don't feel in competition with each other. I guess is what I'm trying to say, even though we are, I guess, technically yeah, a lot of us are but we're not trying to hide good jobs from each other. We're not trying to. Really, there's not a whole lot of us putting ourselves first, and I think that that's absolutely, that absolutely makes sense and is okay, and that should happen when you get laid off. You need to put yourself first. It's also just another mental health hurdle.

Speaker 2: 5:33

it's nice too, because there are definitely places where there is not that camaraderie and to have that level of support in the face of this, you all decided to come together instead and you let you, let it bring you together. There are places where I've been that definitely wasn't the case, so to have that extra level of support in real time must be amazing.

Speaker 1: 5:57

Yeah no, it has been really great and we've made more group chats, like we already had, obviously, a group chat with all of us. But like we made more like outside of work and we're also sharing, like even the day of people were sharing like, well, I started decorating for Christmas already, just to go do something and do something different, get your mind off it, because it's not something you can just process in a day. One of my direct reports was like yeah, I'll let you know, I'm going to go for a run. So, like she went to go for a run to just clear her head and I don't know, just let some of it out in a way that's not just screaming and bawling, which a lot of us did, let it out in that way, and that's perfectly okay too. There's nothing wrong with that, I think, especially at work. We don't want to, especially at work as women I'm sure men too but we don't want to cry at work Like we're already looked at as less than oh God, yeah, and so we see that as an even bigger, where we see that as maybe another excuse for people to say that we're just we're just too emotional or we're taking things too personally. That's one thing I absolutely hate, by the way, just because that popped into my head, I worked at a place where what was it?

Speaker 1: 7:20

Was it like the? What is it? It's like the four. What is that book? Alyssa knows what I'm talking about. It's like the four. I don't know what it's called. Four purposes, four mottos, for I can't think of what it's called the four agreements. Thank you, like going through like kind of a thesaurus in my head. Everything else, thank you, the four agreements, and I believe that was the one where one of them was don't take things personally, and I've heard that before from other places as well that I worked at, but this one it was like they gave you this book to read and that was actually part of your homework as like your first week or two at the company to read out of your homework as like your first week or two at the company to read.

Speaker 2: 8:07

They're actually brainwashing you into accepting, if they ever lay you off by making you read that thing. That's definitely. There was another the worst book club podcast. It was another book similar to that. It was like I think, yes, if you want to, you have to go out and find your own cheese and if you don't, you're just going to be stuck. But every opportunity, and so they basically are brainwashing workers into into getting ready to be laid off and not being quote more upset about it because it's not personal yeah, it's an opportunity for you. You can't take things so personally, don't they know personally.

Speaker 1: 8:39

It's I really don't like the way that you know brian talked to me and I don't think it was appropriate. So I'm coming to you HR, to let you know and it's like, well, I wouldn't take it personally. You know like, don't take it personally.

Speaker 2: 8:55

Especially during layoffs. I'm not saying this one, but there have been layoffs where they've kept someone and like, oh, that's an interesting keep versus other people. So I do take it a little personally. I'm not going to lie. It's hard not to.

Speaker 1: 9:09

Well, I mean, if somebody is saying something to you that is hurtful, absolutely you should take it personally. That's a personal thing and I think that language and that message of oh just don't. You've got to not take things personally, like that's really what you need to work on, that does more harm than good. You're literally just being like we're giving Rebecca and I talk a lot about sometimes work and companies at times, especially if it's like a toxic environment, very toxic environment. It's kind of like being in an abusive relationship and that's just kind of what it feels like. That just feels like another, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 9:55

It's a lot of times in abusive relationships there's a refusal to take responsibility for things, and it's always well. You made me do this and I wouldn't have done this because X, y and Z and with toxic workplaces, toxic workplaces. It's well if you didn't ask so many questions or if you didn't question what I told you to do or some some petty bullshit, we wouldn't have had to fire you or lay you off. Yeah, I just I'm sorry that I feel so bad and I know you're still working through it, but that's a horrible place to be in mentally, especially with everything else going on, and I'm sorry, yeah to be clear.

Speaker 1: 10:32

I just want everybody to know like I'm okay, like I'm going to be okay, and I know I'll be okay.

Speaker 2: 10:38

I was gonna ask was it one of your better layouts or was it? Would we consider it one of your least favorite layoffs?

Speaker 1: 10:45

this is only my second layoff.

Speaker 1: 10:48

Oh okay, so that's not going to be a hard choice then yeah, I would say that this is worse, and for me it's worse because because of how many people lost their jobs? Yeah, because I think my my first layoff. I think there were a couple other people that were like kind of unrelated, but I was basically like the only person that got laid off, so I can't really compare them, because that also had its own way of messing with my head, because it's like oh, this wasn't like a, we can't afford to pay all these people on this team anymore to do this work. It's. We're going to single out a person and let's single out you, who have been here the longest. Who built this team, who built our content library, who improved our content library, did all these hires?

Speaker 2: 11:50

But what didn't you do? Oh, work for free.

Speaker 1: 11:55

They were offended. I did not work for free. I did find out later that. Do I want to get into this? Look at Rebecca. Rebecca's so excited when there's.

Speaker 2: 12:05

That's because I have a good one too, so it's fine.

Speaker 1: 12:08

I just it's therapeutic, honestly, and this is one of those cases of like it 100% was personal, that was yeah that first layoff was just very confusing and I actually did cry on the call because it literally was so out of this. One was very, very out of the blue. I said, with this layoff I think we all kind of felt like it might happen. But yeah, but when it was like just me, I was like the only person from editorial that was laid off and I had been there the longest, I was the third person on the team. It was just me and SEO manager and then our I don't know if he was like content director, I can't remember whatever and so I got to hire everyone, just like people I had worked with in the past that I know are like awesome.

Speaker 1: 12:54

And also that's when I was building my little like introvert army and more introverts in the workplace, please, more introverts as managers in the workplace, please, more introverts as managers. And it was wonderful Like I absolutely loved that job for the majority of the time I was there, and that was, I think, one of the first times I actually not the first time that I had built content up and hired a team, but it was one of the first times that I realized that that's really what I love doing. That's something that I actually really enjoy, just like training and mentoring people. That's something that even just kind of this year I even I knew I always kind of liked it, but I realized that that's something that I am like passionate about.

Speaker 2: 13:43

I really like mentoring editors and writers and yeah, I'm totally getting off topic here, but you were saying about, you were the one, but you built everything and yet you were the only one with them. And it was, and you found that out. Do you want to talk about how you found that out, how I found out that I was let go? No, that it was a personal thing don't take it personally.

Speaker 1: 14:09

My manager, who laid me off, messaged me, I think, texted me and finally was checking in after a long time and I was like, hey, I was like, would you ever want to get on a call, like later this week or next week? I honestly just think it would be nice to talk about things and just like kind of get some closure. I think that's what I said. So I actually asked him to get on a call and, hey, how are you, how you been, how are things going? Just typical. And then we just kind of got into it and we're talking about me being laid off and his experience there which, by the way, he was leaving the company already. That was actually his last day. The day he laid me off was his last day with the company. So, first off, personal, yeah, so he's on the call again, so I get on the call with him. He's talking about this. And then he says, first of all, yeah, so he's on the call again, so I get on the call with him, he's talking about this. And then he says kind of beating around the bush, around the whole, like I was laid off thing. And then I think I was.

Speaker 1: 15:15

But what happened? Like why? It was kind of like why me? I was just trying to be like open about it and as my manager, we were very open with each other about things and you know me, I say what. I think I'm very straightforward, I'm very blunt and he's.

Speaker 1: 15:33

Well, what happened was it was a choice between you and the other managing editor, and they told me I had to let one of you go, or, I'm sorry, I don't think he said that, yet I think he said, and they said they have to let one of you go. And then he proceeds to tell me we've been talking for a while about this and then he finally tells me which I'm kind of surprised he told me it was my decision, I made the decision and I picked you to lay off. I didn't know how to react to that because, first of all, like, why are you telling? Why are you? Why would you tell me that? I kind of I'm glad he did, but just very surprised that he would admit it. And yeah, then I kind of just started asking questions like, okay, well, why, like I had been there the longest, I built this team, I trained these editors, I helped choose this other managing editor.

Speaker 2: 16:35

And I'm sorry I'm hearing you profited off of all my hard work. Yeah, Right, Is that?

Speaker 1: 16:40

that's how it goes, that's what. What?

Speaker 2: 16:41

yeah, that's why layoffs are so hard, because you, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to throw you off track. I didn't mean to throw you off track, sorry, no, no, no you're fine.

Speaker 1: 16:52

But I was just like you, give and give and give and give and we've talked about this before already on the podcast like they don't care about you and you, you care to some extent. There's some extent that you care and wait go back.

Speaker 2: 17:08

I know we're going to I. You got to finish this one, though, about why he said cause I'm. This pisses me off so much as your friend that, like I, am pinching myself over here.

Speaker 1: 17:18

I was trying to figure out, like well, why, like? Why did you make that decision? Like, why did you do that? And he said, well, why, like? Why did you make that decision? Like, why did you do that? And he said, well, we really wanted to go more toward doing more like partnership content. And I was like, okay, and the new managing editor was put in charge of partnership content and she was hired to be a partnership person because my manager approached me when we started doing partnerships and said all right, we really want you to start doing this and building up a second team for partnerships, so you would hire more editors, writers and this, this and this. And he's like telling me all these things I have to do. So basically, it literally is like doubling my job. And I'm like, okay, and it was probably my first question, but there's nothing wrong with that. But I was like okay, what? What's like the new? Is there a new title for this role? And I was like and what's like the comp increase? Like, and because hold on.

Speaker 2: 18:17

We're expect, because we are told in every article that we read, if they add on to your job and it is no longer in the scope of what you were hired to do. So, like everything we read, has told us to ask these questions right. So I'm just saying you are following best practices that that are advised to us in every professional. Whatever that I've read, it wasn't an out of pocket question, is my point.

Speaker 1: 18:41

Whatever that I've read, it wasn't an out-of-pocket question is my point, and it wasn't even just oh, we hadn't planned for that. It was literally as if my manager got upset. He was upset that I had asked that.

Speaker 2: 18:54

He accused you of not being a team player. He accused you the person who built the fucking team. Yeah, and he wanted to build another fucking team aka the definition of a team player. Yeah, and he wanted to build another fucking team aka the definition of a team player. Yeah, yeah, you were not being a team player.

Speaker 1: 19:11

Yeah, so got very like upset about it and I and I said, well, I was like I don't, and I had even said, I said I'm happy to do it, and that's the, and that is the truth. I would have been so happy to take that on, which is kind of crazy. I don't know why we're so happy to take these things on, but at that time I was like happy to take that on too, but I did want to be compensated for the work, because there was a lot more work.

Speaker 2: 19:37

You didn't get a job to work for free because it makes you feel good. You got a job so you can feed your cat.

Speaker 1: 19:46

you feel good. You got a job so you can feed your cat and keep my cat on Prozac yes, this gets me so mad. It's okay. It's okay. That just means you're a good friend, you know everything, so you get it.

Speaker 1: 19:53

Then he started, got upset that I was asking for to be compensated for it, then even said something to the effect of which is unbelievable to me, and I think this is how a lot of companies and managers think of this and it's awful.

Speaker 1: 20:10

But well, you should just be happy to get more responsibility and you should do the work and prove yourself, and then it's for you to help move your career up. Yeah, for you, and based on that, we'll promote you or pay you what we should have been paying you while you were doing all this work, to begin with, anyway. So I talked to him about it, I went back to him and I was like listen, like another day, like a day or two later, and I was like this is, this is a lot of work. And so finally, I think he seemed to kind of calm down and understand and say, well, ok, I think it does sound like you're right and we should maybe hire another managing editor for that role, and that was fine with me too. She came on, she's great and then I was laid off. And I was laid off. According to him, I didn't seem, yeah, basically to be a team player and to want to take on and help with the workload.

Speaker 2: 21:16

And I interrupted him. The rage, the rage, the rage. I see my face turning red. The rage, just insane.

Speaker 1: 21:26

I'm through, like I'm over it. I am over it.

Speaker 2: 21:27

It's terrible, but I'm just just that little spark of butt hurt that they hold on to that. You said no to something he asked you to do and then he just held on to that like a little control yeah, to throw in your face.

Speaker 1: 21:41

But I interrupted him, so we're talking on the phone. I interrupted him and I was like, hey, listen. I said I'm gonna stop you right there and I was like that is not what happened at all. Oh, but I thought I said no, no, no, let me. I. I will tell you right now exactly what happened, because I remember it like it was.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Yesterday you came to me, told me you like what? And it wasn't even we need you to do this. It was literally like, would you be interested? Yeah, and I was like, and I told you, yeah, like I'm interested. And then I asked about the comp and you got upset and said that I should just be willing to work.

Speaker 1: 22:17

I think it was even, which, like part of it, makes me feel bad for him, because I think he said something to the effect of that's how I've made it here, and so I kind of like like I was like it's kind of like man, that really sucks, like you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that. I have work free and I'm so sorry that people expect you to do that, but let's break the cycle, buddy. So, yeah, so it was just so. I called him out on it and he I don't even know if he apologized he might have, I don't know I just remember feeling, feeling so much.

Speaker 1: 22:48

So it was your choice and you decided and for a very long time I thought this person was like the best manager and I think for a lot of the time, early on, he truly was trying to be and and was some extent but and we were like close because when I started it was just the three of us, you know, and it's like it was us in meetings all day long, every day, planning and deciding what to do, and we were like a family. I, I'm just kidding, I'm so just kidding. Rebecca Dryheaves yes, it is.

Speaker 2: 23:28

It's like that expectation of we're doing you a favor and you're throwing it back in our face.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Yeah, and so that's just. I just I want more more. People need to know that that's not okay for someone to ask you to do more work and take on more resources, no matter what it is. Even if it's just a little bit, it's totally in your right and makes sense and you should get reimbursed for that. You should get compensated for that $1,000. Don't work for free. Don't work for free. Don't work for free. But if you don't work for free, you also might get laid off. I'm just kidding.

Speaker 2: 24:10

Yeah, it happens. No, but you will, just to validate that was so fucked up and shitty, and it's so fucked up and shitty hearing it. What happened to you this time was fucked up and shitty, and I'm sorry. I don't think, though, there, this time is fucked up and shitty and I'm sorry. I don't think, though, there's ever been a great layoff experience to my knowledge. Oh, of course not. No, I had one. Literally, start with this isn't going to be an easy conversation.

Speaker 1: 24:36

I think that's what we need to pull out of this. Rule number one leadership C-suite execs, listen to me, listen to us. Don't start your layoff call with a cliche phrase or with you laughing and joking. That is something that has happened to me. Oh, just a little chit chat beforehand. Oh my gosh, did you see? I don't know, did you see that YouTube video? I loved that video. Anyway, this is a very serious conversation today and it's not going to be an easy one.

Speaker 2: 25:09

This isn't going to be easy.

Speaker 2: 25:11

Yeah, no. And obviously layoffs happen. Obviously they happen and they're terrible, but they do happen. But there is a way to go about them.

Speaker 2: 25:18

My very first time I was laid off, I was at a startup and I went to log in at six in the morning and I couldn't access any of my accounts and I was like what is happening, what? And I couldn't log in and so I reached out to one of the tech guys. He wouldn't respond. Reach out to another tech guy Wouldn't respond. Finally I had it. It was a small team. So like when I say reached out to the VP, he was like what guy number seven? And he's like oh, we didn't want you to find out this way, you should probably just come into the office. We want you to drive 45 minutes to the office while crying uncontrollably so we can fire you in person. And it was layoffs. It was a startup, they were losing funding.

Speaker 2: 25:57

Obviously that makes sense, but I don't know. Just maybe putting people in states of emotional distress, there's a way to do them that lets people keep their humanity in one of the worst possible situations. And there is no thought to that at all in any of the layoffs I've experienced. No, I did go into the office and I did ask for severance and the owner of the company looked at me like I was crazy because he clearly was not expecting that question and also I was a kid. I was like 23. He just takes out his personal checkbook slowly and just writes me a personal check for $1,000 and then just handed it to me. Great, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2: 26:45

Thank you. Do you want that's the other thing too? I think a lot of people. It happens so fast that they don't give you time to digest what is going to happen. They don't give you time to digest the details or severance or anything. It's just. It's such an emotional whiplash that it's been watching you go through the stages of grief this week. It's that it's been watching you go through the stages of grief this week. It's just whiplash and it happens unexpectedly. And then it's like watching grief in real time, because now you're trying to digest while also still having to be at work at that place too, and also watching the other people who are going to be laid off, having to do work too and keep your shit together like an adult all day. Yeah, especially if you're a manager.

Speaker 1: 27:25

Well, I do. I was just this popped in my head that I kind of forgot about, but we had. So we had some layoffs. We actually had sorry, massive, not some. There were massive layoffs in June as well, and I think most of my team survived those layoffs. Most of my team survived the layoffs. Most of my team survived the layoffs. Two of our managers were setting up calls with everybody. People were literally watching people disappear from Slack group messages like live. We were all just staring at our Slack.

Speaker 2: 27:58

It's like Coliseum, with gladiators, just people going down around you and having to watch it. And there was no escape.

Speaker 1: 28:05

Yeah, and there was no like couple of my good friends and like people I had gotten jobs here, like I was their referral, that I had worked with, that are great people Like they, great people, great at their jobs, and they got laid off. So they were setting up these calls for us and they got laid off. So they were setting up these calls for us and it was we didn't know, because no one had addressed the layoffs. What happened was some people on Slack would be like were told like a friend, I'm being laid off at work. All of us were getting different pieces of information from who has gone. Then we were looking in big group chats of the hall of editorial and stuff like that and it was just dropping.

Speaker 2: 28:43

FBI agent, fbi agent your FBI agent training kicks in because you're like right now Google Cal.

Speaker 1: 28:51

Right, we're on Google Cal. We're typing in like managers. We're typing in friends, emails and names and managers to see who has meetings. What is this meeting? Yes, this person hides everything, so it just says busy. So fuck them. We were like what is happening? And we were checking in with each other, everyone on the team, so we were like how is this going to affect us? What's going to happen? Our manager just didn't really talk to us about it. I think they were just shocked, so they were still trying to comprehend what was happening. So I show up to the meeting that was scheduled for me by my managers and I'm the first one there, and then my one manager pops up. I don't know if I'm getting laid off, I don't know what's happening. My one manager pops in. She's like eating something and she goes. Hey, she goes. How are you?

Speaker 2: 29:39

Dare you eat at this moment at me. Don't act like your body is functioning. You also need to be upset. Don't eat casually at me. She's so mad.

Speaker 1: 29:46

She goes hi. How are you? That's what I think Damn. It wasn't her being an asshole, it was literally her not knowing what to do and still trying so she's completely disassociated.

Speaker 1: 30:00

Yeah, she's just all, just okay, yeah, so she's like eating something. And then she's like, hey, how are you? And I'm like Stacey, am I being laid off? And then she goes oh no, oh God, no, no. And I was like ugh, oh, like what? Can we start the conversation with that please? Hey, don't worry, you're not being laid off, this is what's happening. And I was just like, oh my God, because I had no idea. I was just like we'll see what happens.

Speaker 2: 30:27

But that shit and I want to talk about that shit right there that that shit stays with you so hard, to the point where my current boss has to put don't be alarmed in front of a meeting invite.

Speaker 1: 30:37

Oh, that's so smart.

Speaker 2: 30:39

I love that. I am so like, and every time you're like do you have time to talk, I'm like, why, what do you want? Because it's just constantly that happens to, just two times, one or two times just shark in the water, layoffs.

Speaker 1: 30:54

And every time something weird happens or they ask for do you have a minute, you're just like, oh my God, it's happening again, it is, it's actual work, ptsd, and so, like he knows better, now to be like don't be alert just if I'm meeting, like I should adopt that that's actually brilliant, like I'll tell people, but that's just such a good thing to do and it sounds so silly, but that would fix a lot of issues and you would probably save a lot of people from having an anxiety attack. No, you can't do that let's be honest.

Speaker 2: 31:29

But I'm honest to you now. I am honest. I'm like are we okay? Will you tell me when we're not okay? Because if I there is, I need to know if you can give me as much time as well, and sometimes they can't too. But yeah, if you can, you need to let me know if things are looking weird or if things are feeling kind of iffy and there are some managers who just refuse to do it and they're just like no, everything's fine. And then it's a surprise because they're either conflict, diverse or something. This week is not for you. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1: 31:57

Yeah, it's fine, I'm going to be okay. But yeah, if anyone is listening and you have some editorial jobs for editors, writers, content specialists, let me know. Let us know. I have a lot of really amazing people to send your way.

Speaker 2: 32:16

I'm going to talk over you for a minute right now, because I want people to know what you did is that, when this happened, the very first thing you did was put out a call for leads for your people. It wasn't I'm open to be hired, I'm looking for a job. You put your team and you're like hey, there are these amazing people who were just laid off. Please send me leads for them, if you have anything. And I just need to give you your props for that, because that doesn't happen a lot, and that is truly the mark of a good manager and a good leader that you went to bat for them when you yourself are in a place where you should be looking for something.

Speaker 1: 32:58

I appreciate it. I honestly don't. I don't want props for that, I think oh no, because that's so rare as your friend that's.

Speaker 2: 33:05

I'm so proud to know that somebody who I love is that is that person. You love me. You love me. Listen, you've had a hard week. I am told this is like a verbal hug.

Speaker 1: 33:29

I am, oh my God, giving a verbal hug. Yeah, she's obsessed. I broke her down, yeah, but again, I really do think. I think we're all doing that for each other. I think we've all been really lifting each other up and but I do agree leadership and management in particular. I think, yeah, I think they lose their humanity and they lose sight of these are people, they're not just like a number. And again, layoffs happen. Layoffs have to happen sometimes. That is not the issue. The issue is not just layoffs. The issue is how layoffs are handled, how you support your people. I think everybody I've never been at a company who lays off people and actually I don't even know what it's called but works with them in a program or pays for a program for them Outboarding.

Speaker 2: 34:06

Is it outboarding or that's not right? Not offboarding?

Speaker 1: 34:10

It's like out out, not outsourcing anyway, but it helps you find a job because they know it's hard. So that, to me, is another example of leadership and management putting something into action instead of just lip service. Lip service, oh, we're so sorry, we don't want to have to do this, we know it's going to be so hard. Okay, do something about it, because otherwise it's hollow and we think you don't care about us and we've given so much of ourselves, of our time and our energy. I guess I realized it's a job and we're getting paid to do that, but you're still giving so much of yourself to it and we're getting paid to make you guys money.

Speaker 2: 34:49

We are getting. You're giving us money to make you money. We're not doing it for fun.

Speaker 1: 34:53

Anyone becoming a manager needs to realize they might have to fire, lay someone off and be prepared and skilled enough to handle that kindly and professionally. It's literally their job. Yeah, I actually that's something I was pushing for at the last couple of companies I worked for. Well, I had pushed this because I had run into some very bad managers and management training I would love to do like a management training, leadership training, like I would benefit from that. And there are a lot of people who are just like thrown into these roles and don't have experience or just not good at it or don't know what to do or have like their examples of how to be, how to lead and how to manage are bad examples, so they're doing it wrong, not thinking.

Speaker 2: 35:40

Or having to do someone's dirty work, that's the other thing. When they just have a problem employee and they're like you know what, I want the next guy to handle it, yeah, just rebel and he's got a terrible mission as a manager, oh yeah exactly.

Speaker 1: 35:53

Yeah, that's off, that's terrible, that's yeah, that's happened to people I know before and it's really stupid. On guys, yeah, I just think you need to be prepared and skilled enough to handle that kindly and professionally if you're going to be a manager. In case you do have to lay somebody off or fire somebody and that would, I think, should be part of like leadership training is how to do this well, how to give feedback well, how to not just give positive feedback, how to give negative feedback. That will help someone improve, but do it the right way. And anyway, yeah, I think, leadership leadership camp for all the bad managers and all the good managers yeah, how many times have you been laid off? Two, ish.

Speaker 2: 36:49

Three, four was a mutual these are all four stars, by the way. Four was a mutual parting of ways where she was like I hate you, or like good, because I fucking hate you just as much. Like this is, this is good for both of us. Yeah, five or five or six times. Wow, five or six times. Yeah, I do have.

Speaker 2: 37:06

So a lot of it is because I joined the workforce in 2007. And so I was working in Phoenix, which they call like the Silicon Desert, so there were a lot of startups there. Sounds so confusing. Yeah, they need to rethink that. So I worked for a ton of them, and the great thing is you learn a ton of shit, and the horrible thing is they lose funding so fast, or they don't make it, or they get sued by the entire state of texas for bad practices that you didn't know about, or they they can't razzle, dazzle enough people to hire them. So so I mean like, oh, it's just they're having to scratch their way through, and you either make it with them or you don't, or sometimes it's successful. Part of the success is due to your hard work, and then they sell a company and you get laid off. Then, too, there's a lot of different ways. Most of them have just been like from startups yeah, it's never ever been good. It has never been good or easy, it has never been done well.

Speaker 1: 38:09

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:10

It's not easy. It's not easy, but it all it just left me with rage, Just rage, yeah, and the lack of humanity that was shown if there was other people like O2. I cannot keep my shit together long enough to be cool with I. I've just seen so many bad examples that I could rant and rave for hours, from what happens to me to my friends, to my husband. It's just yeah. I've never seen it done well and the thing that gets me is it's super simple, it's just remember that actual people work for you. Remember that actual people have to take care of their families and there are times when you cannot help it. But every time you can control how it goes. That is in your control, how you handle it with the people you are having to lay off. What are you going to do next week or the next couple of months? Do you have plans on what you're going to do to kind of keep yourself mentally afloat? Are you dreading this?

Speaker 1: 39:06

Honestly, I'm okay, I'm going to be okay. There are a lot of people that I don't think are going to be okay. So I I definitely feel, I think a lot of us feel like that's why we're helping each other, because we really want, we want everyone to be okay, we know, and not just because, like we like each other and we are good humans which is huge, by the way truly think that is the main systemic issue with companies and company culture is losing humanity and just shit people just shouldn't have jobs. If you're a shit person like you shouldn't have a job.

Speaker 2: 39:46

It's all built on patriarchy and capitalism tm insert gif here but like we have, we have to be a part of it in order to I don't know fucking exist, and that should be top of mind for a lot of the managers there. We don't want to be here, but we have to be here and we all know this literally. That truly should be so. Remember there are people at the bottom of this ladder. There are people holding the ladder for all these assholes at the top.

Speaker 2: 40:22

I think my favorite story is when I laid myself off. I was just the six months at this startup with this crazy person. The owner of the company was legitimately crazy and she ran through multiple talented people who were like industry professionals, great at their jobs, and would leave like mentally wrung out two months. Three months later I made it six months. I finally just set up a meeting with her and I was like you know what? This isn't working. She's like oh good, I'm glad you said that, because I was going to fire you. I was like, no, I quit first and it was just basically us arguing over who fired or quit first, and but I was done and I'm so glad we came to that agreement.

Speaker 1: 41:08

Sorry, Was this the? I fucking hate you? You're fired and you were like thank God, I fucking hate you. Is that this one?

Speaker 2: 41:15

Yeah, yeah, that one. So I fired myself, which is great. And then I got a call from a friend who said we need one of you at our company. And then I got half laid off because the biz just wasn't pulling it in, and so then I had to work part-time and I had moved out here too to be employed at this place from Arizona. So I moved out here knowing that I'd have a job, and she said we tried to make it work with you. And so you're like I tried to make it work with you, bitch, right, what, right? Yes, we've given you all different positions. We just wanted you to find your place and you didn't seem to fit.

Speaker 2: 41:55

I was like I spent two years being told that everything I did was kind of not great and that was the impetus of therapy and having to learn that I do great work. That's a lot of where that PTSD and imposter syndrome comes into. I would say that one was definitely most emotionally and mentally damaging. Yeah For sure, like I had to have an emergency meeting with my therapist. It's so hard not to get emotional, it's, it is personal. It's so personal it is.

Speaker 2: 42:30

Um, yeah, it just spent two years like quietly being kind of cut down when the kicker is. I joined her because I believed in her and what she was doing and wanted to support her, and everything I did was hoping that it would make her company better and right. And what did I learn? I worked so hard that sometimes we, sometimes people, are threatened when you're too good at your job, because they don't know how to do things like spell, and when really you're just working so hard because you want them to succeed, because you're cheering them on. But it's seen as and I don't want to sound like a conceited asshole, being like I was a threat but I was a threat but I was a threat, but it felt like I threatened her when really I just wanted to make her proud.

Speaker 2: 43:17

I just wanted her to be proud of the work I was doing for her, because I was proud of her yeah and that's why I joined was to support her. I was so proud of her and and to go to a job where I am now, where fucking shocker still me, still same work ethic, but I'm like doing really well yeah. I mean, it makes me think that it wasn't it was personal, that it wasn't that it was personal, that it wasn't, that it wasn't me and that it was personal.

Speaker 1: 43:46

Thank you that it wasn't you and it was this so personal cunt can I say cunt.

Speaker 2: 43:52

The other thing, when we moved from one state to another so I could be closer to work, and when we all got covid the day we were moving into our new house and then when I was still vastly sick a week later, she brought me into a call. I was like you don't seem to be like doing your best work right now. It's not like at a hundred percent. I'm like the COVID just literally dying and I had just moved my entire family and life and I'm propped up and gray and it was like that kind of gaslighting shit where instead of being like hey, things are really here's some more time off and please take care of yourself and A feel better. Yeah, and B, your whole family is sick. Yep, you want me?

Speaker 1: 44:37

to do good work. You want me to do fucking good work. Give me the time off to recover and don't give me anxiety about.

Speaker 2: 44:47

Of course I'm not at 100%. Yeah, I literally moved across the country and I got COVID on the same day, but it was internalized and that fucking red flag I should have seen it for what it was. So that one hurts, that one hurts a lot, it hurts. Now talking about it, that feels like the biggest fucking betrayal. Yep, well, we kept our shit together remarkably well. I am proud of us, and by we I mean me. I can't well, no, I, you know what I did keep my shit together. Kind of I cannot be objective about this. I cannot talk professionally about this and, like the second, we are done with this. I I'm going to go fucking scream into something because this amps me up and obsessed me so much.

Speaker 1: 45:36

You can scream into something now. Yeah, it is, it's so personal it's.

Speaker 2: 45:41

it's so always personal. It's so personal and no one has proved that it's not personal. I've never been to a place where it hasn't been personal.

Speaker 1: 45:51

I feel like both of us now are very known for speaking our mind and speaking up and being blunt, sometimes, probably to the point where we shouldn't be as blunt as we are. But fuck that we are. And back then I would have liked to think that I was like that, but I wasn't.

Speaker 1: 46:11

And that I was at startups a lot through my career, not just at the beginning, but especially at the beginning, when you're so young and they know that, and that's why all these startups are filled with these like 20 somethings that are fresh out of college that are just trying to like get their life started and like a new big city Like they're in New York, they're in LA, san Francisco they offer you all these goodies and these shiny things and all the while they're literally just fucking you over and you're not realizing it, because you are 23 fucking years old and you are just so happy that you get to work for a tech company or so happy that you get to work.

Speaker 2: 46:53

Smash cut to a year later when you can't get off the couch or put on pants.

Speaker 1: 46:58

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that, ladies and gentlemen. There's nothing wrong with not being able to put on pants. I'm so glad. This is all the more reason, everybody, for you to do the thing You've always wanted to make money off selling your art. You've always wanted to start a book club. You've always wanted to start your own YouTube channel or stream on Twitch, like maybe just stream games on Twitch. You're a gamer and you just want to do that, and this is literally why you should do this and why you shouldn't wait. You don't have to go all in right away. Just do one thing to move toward this thing that's going to make you happy and make your life less shitty, and I just think that's so important.

Speaker 1: 47:53

I think we all need to kind of take that step and take that dive in, even if it's just maybe testing the water at first, because I am so thankful that we have been working on this and I know we just started and I know that this is probably going to change and this is probably going to it. This is probably going to. It's going to like change and like our podcast is going to improve. Our community is going to get bigger, which is that's the main thing we want. We want people on Discord talking to each other. We want people on Discord sharing jobs being like hey, I was laid off, this is what I'm looking for. Has anyone heard of anything? We're also looking for jobs. We'll keep an eye out for that for you. Keep an eye out for this for us. Like we have to support each other because the companies are not going to fucking support us.

Speaker 2: 48:41

We have to like it's just doing that one thing that just makes you happy or just makes you feel okay or just brings you a little bit of joy is kind of that mental version of just floating in the ocean eating fruit, even if it's just for a couple seconds. You just you need that Because and I hate the you have to put your mask on first, but you kind of do. If you manage people, if you are a parent, if you are a cat mom, if you are anything, or you just exist in this world and someone out there is relying on you, you have to be able to make sure you're okay so that you can take care of them.

Speaker 1: 49:19

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 49:20

And this that's a way to to ensure that that's happening, doing the thing, whatever that is Because I think that's helped a ton.

Speaker 1: 49:29

It's helped a ton that we always have stuff to do for this.

Speaker 2: 49:32

it's honestly, it's a lot of work, but we're having fun but we're learning, like we're learning how to do this stuff too. Doing the thing and learning. It's the challenge of putting out something creative, and I think that's what's been keeping us energized yeah, well, not even just the challenge, but just being creative and having.

Speaker 1: 49:52

honestly, this is awful, but having a purpose outside of your job, what?

Speaker 2: 49:59

No, yeah, no. Your job is you. You are your job, right. Isn't that what every fucking man is taught from the second they're born is you are your job, forever and ever. And whatever happens to you, you are a failure.

Speaker 1: 50:15

Oh God, you guys, the patriarchy. They got to her. They got to her. You are not your job Because it can feel like that, and I get it because it's. You need to work for money, because you need to survive, you need food to eat, you need a roof over your head, you need to take care of your kids and your family and yourself, but we just get lost and I feel like I would always talk about oh, like I don't care, it's just work, but I do care and I think it does. It just kind of takes over your life sometimes, where and it's not even like the work-life balance it's just the feeling dead inside at the end of the day and being so exhausted that you don't even want to talk to your best friend on the phone or you don't even want to play games with your friends to unwind and relax no, it's the therapist.

Speaker 2: 51:00

The empty cup thing. Your cup is totally empty.

Speaker 1: 51:03

At the end of the day, you're dead inside yeah, dead inside, I do think maybe we should wrap it up. Yeah, Thank you all for being here. Thank you for sharing your stories and your experiences. We are again going to definitely have another episode about layoffs and just job hunting. It's been a shit week. You guys, and just do something for yourself this weekend.

Speaker 2: 51:30

Yep, all right guys, we will see you next week. Hang in there, all right yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:36

Everybody hang in there, all right. The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, jamie Young.

Speaker 2: 51:42

And me, Rebecca McCracken. You can find all our episodes plus show notes at burnoutcollectivecom.

Speaker 1: 51:48

Follow the Discord link on our website to join the burnout community. You can also find us on TikTok and Instagram.

Speaker 2: 51:55

If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode or have questions or feedback, you can email us at podcast at burnout collective dot com.