Speaker 1: 0:00

It's like professional herpes, where bad managers beget bad managers.

Speaker 2: 0:06

I'm Jamie and I'm Rebecca. Welcome to the Burnout.

Speaker 1: 0:12

Collective One, episode one We've done it, and now it's our official foray.

Speaker 2: 0:19

Yeah, this is it Still with the shitty intros. This is episode one. This is it Still with the shitty intros, episode one. We started talking about this earlier this week and we were like, is this our theme, is this our podcast topic for Saturday? And we said yes, and it is Managers the good, the bad, the ugly, the mostly very, very bad.

Speaker 1: 0:45

I've definitely had some good managers, not going to lie, it's funny, you don't know that they're bad managers, usually until you've worked longer or you're older.

Speaker 2: 0:53

Early on in my career, I learned how to be a manager by learning what not to do from very terrible managers. I don't know if anyone has had a similar situation.

Speaker 1: 1:06

Yes, my whole management philosophy is built on acts of terrible.

Speaker 2: 1:15

That's kind of how I learned to be a manager by learning what not to do. I guess, just from there, just kind of like, had like added my own style into it. Like honestly, I'm just maybe I'm too much of a sentimental. Not sentimental, but like empathy. I'm a very empathetic manager. I think there are some people in my past who have like taken advantage of me as a manager because I am so empathetic and, to be clear, I'm not going to let people walk all over me. But I'm also not going to treat. Treat you like like we're equals, you know, like we're all on the same team. I'm not gonna treat you like a pleb. Oh god, am I? Am I like a high school teacher? You know those teachers who were like I'm your friend teachers?

Speaker 1: 1:58

I'm not like moms, I'm cool mom yeah, am I?

Speaker 2: 2:02

am I that guy? Am I that guy? Do you think?

Speaker 1: 2:06

no, no, I guess I don't really think, I don't really explain and talk about my management style see, and that kind of goes back to my theory that people who make good leaders don't really want or try to be leaders in the first place, like people who want to be in power most of the time shouldn't be in power because their motives are not for anyone but themselves.

Speaker 1: 2:31

And I think I really do think that applies to managers. But people who make the best managers don't seek that out, they seek out the people, the work. A lot of times they're overlooked and I think we're gonna talk about quiet leadership later. But a lot of quiet leaders kind of get overlooked and are promoted or are not promoted, and the people who are promoted usually are the ones who are like louder and and gunning for it. But you know, once in a while you do get someone who should be in a position of leadership and is brought up. And I would say you're one of those because since I've known you, you've never been like I just want to be a manager. Well, I've been all that work.

Speaker 2: 3:10

I also think it's like, honestly, I think it's just that word and that idea of power. Because if someone is ever thinking like, oh, I want to be in power and like I want to have direct reports that I tell what to do, if you're ever thinking that, like you shouldn't be a manager because starting out I didn't want to be a manager, I slowly realized like, hey, I'm really good at this Like and I like this because, like I like mentoring writers and editors and like other people on my team, I never thought I want to be in power and I want to tell people what to do. And I think a lot of people might not even think that at first, but then they're given a management job and they're like, oh, this is great, now I'm in power and I can tell people what to do.

Speaker 1: 3:59

And or I think that's how they should be a manager. That's the other thing too, right, I have been managed by someone who came from bad management and it just got passed down the same bad habits that they complained about their managers pulling on them. They just kind of turned around and did the same thing.

Speaker 2: 4:19

God, it's like this crazy, like incestual. It's just like. Bad managers breed bad managers. They want to promote people that honestly like suck up to them, right, yes, the loud, the loud, the loud one, the extrovert, let's just say it. The extroverts, let's just say it.

Speaker 1: 4:38

Right. And so there is this concept of quiet leadership or gentle leadership, where, um, some of the best leaders are there as advocates, they are there as support to the people that they manage or just the people they work with. If they aren't managers quite yet, but they are showing gentle and quiet leadership, people who who do a lot of uplifting of others. If you see someone and you try to help them to get to like the next step in their career and you're not threatened by them and you lift them up with you, like, those are really good examples. But a lot of times gentle leadership because they're not assertive or they're not dominant, that's seen as a weakness, and so a lot of people try to work with them on improving themselves as leaders, because they think there's just one way to lead, which is just not true, and especially, I think, for neurodivergent or shy or anybody else who?

Speaker 1: 5:37

yes, I think they are the best examples of gentle and quiet leadership yeah and I'm glad people are starting to understand like that is actually a very valid way to be a manager.

Speaker 2: 5:48

Honestly, I even think, just like good managers make their team their priority and not the work Not that the work isn't a priority, but I think like I've been saying that at work a lot lately just like my team is my top priority, like I just want to make sure my team is okay, I want to make sure my team has everything they need to do their job well.

Speaker 2: 6:13

I want to make sure they feel heard.

Speaker 2: 6:16

I do, however, think that there's a line, a fine line, between shielding your direct reports from the BS and keeping them too much in the dark about ongoings.

Speaker 2: 6:29

I think that's something that I personally struggle with as a manager, because there are a lot of times when, just like different places I've worked, where I've been added to a meeting invite and it's just me, like, say, it's just me and the other editorial managers, but it's something that I really think we should be sharing with the wider team, like not just the management or leadership, and I struggle with that. Do I not bother and leave them off this meeting and then I can just tell them later, but a lot of times it's just the fact that I feel like they would benefit from being there and hearing. Whatever it is my leadership is like telling us and also what like they might they might have something to say about it. You know like they might have questions about it and want to be there to hear it and ask those questions directly I am always honest as possible, without again I do like the sky is falling.

Speaker 1: 7:33

But I mean, you're right, you want to make sure they are aware. If there's something they need to be, yeah thereof. But you, yeah, I think knowing when not to pull them into the politics of the office is a super solid skill set. The other thing in those offices that I think is hopefully slowly changing, but not fast enough, is creating tracks to move people to promote them. But yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:58

I was going to say yeah, people who don't want to be managers, but like want to get promoted and want to make more money like your only option should not be you're in charge of.

Speaker 1: 8:10

That's actually how you get a lot of bad managers is you put people with absolutely no management skills in order to move them up? And a lot of times they're moved up without training, without that's how the cycle starts right.

Speaker 2: 8:22

That's the the incestual bad manager cycle. That's the start of it is people promote managers just because, like, that's the next step for them, and then I've been put under these people and it's off, it's exhausting and actually when I think it was elissa brought up the concept of moral injury.

Speaker 1: 8:41

where is it? Burnout or moral injury? And working for people who live their lives in a way that goes against your own ethics or your own personal beliefs?

Speaker 2: 8:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 8:53

And just having to work for that person. Every day is raining because you don't believe what they're doing, but you're kind of stuck.

Speaker 2: 9:00

And if you're like, and if you're me, you're kind of sitting there thinking I would do such a better job than them at this. But like, genuinely, does that sound bad? I mean seriously.

Speaker 1: 9:13

No, but I completely understand why would they do that? That doesn't make sense. And then, but again, you don't necessarily know, because especially if you're younger in the workforce or with less experience and you don't have good examples of management and you don't know any different. I guess this is just how managers are.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Right early on.

Speaker 1: 9:30

Bad management. It's still an abusive relationship. It's just a professional abusive relationship and if you don't know any better, if you haven't seen differently, you can 100% be led to believe that this is just how it is and this is how all managers are, and that's what keeps you stuck in that cycle. You don't fight back, you don't speak up, you just get more ground down.

Speaker 2: 9:51

Honestly, we shouldn't even be put in a position where we're like feeling like we have to fight back. That shouldn't ever happen.

Speaker 1: 9:58

By fight back, I mean ask questions of me.

Speaker 2: 10:01

But I mean truly, though that's how I feel sometimes is that I'm put in a position where I feel like I have to fight back. It starts with questions, but like that's my first line of defense I know it's so hard to say to your manager that's a bad idea, or I hear you, but we should maybe consider doing this instead, and that can be hard to do, but I guess that's, yeah, that's what I was thinking when you said fight back.

Speaker 1: 10:32

There are a lot of leaders who don't like that and who don't like to be questioned. Over the last couple of years I've started to have examples of managers who ask what I think about something or ask for input, which I think takes having to tell your manager hey, that's a bad idea. When they are actually open to feedback for real, and not just my door is always open but like, actually want to know. Oh God, I totally say that, but I just ask you about this or do you have any other thoughts? That eliminates the need for that conversation. You are seen as like a team member and valid and and having what you think be taken into consideration. That's how it actually should be. That is good management, but I can genuinely say that has not happened on an even close to consistent enough basis over the almost 20 years that I've been working full time.

Speaker 2: 11:27

Oh yeah, same same Paper says I think I'm learning that a good manager will let you say you think something is wrong and you don't feel fear repercussions. I guess I do always ask even something very because, like we're in content. So even if it's like an edit or something and I make a change to something that maybe one of my direct reports already edited or changed and I'm like explaining it, I'll say like this is why I did this. But then I usually do follow up with asking what do you think about it this way, what do you think about this? Or let me know what you think of this, to kind of open that door, even just on small stuff.

Speaker 1: 12:13

And that again another good mark of good management that lifts all boats. I 100% don't know everything, not even close, and that's not really how you come across.

Speaker 1: 12:27

I know I do know almost everything. So, knowing that you're not right and knowing that there are people out there with great ideas and they're contributing, not only are those great ideas going to make whatever you're doing better, it makes you, as a manager, look better because you hired people who have the great ideas. Yeah, I've had managers where I've had ideas and 100% threatened by what I brought to the table, which was insane to me because it was like I just I want to make it better, but because it wasn't theirs or their idea or something they thought of, they just found ways to shut it down, which was again, especially if you're not a person looking to move up. It's like I just wanted to do good work, I thought this would make it better, and then you just internalize it and again, if you don't know what good management looks like, then you 100% internalize it and it really starts to wear down your confidence, wear down how you think about yourself, and again we'll cycle back to that burnout and moral injury.

Speaker 2: 13:30

To be totally honest, yeah, good managers are always looking for how to lift others up. One quality of a good leader that's a good way to put it Like lift others up.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Yeah, Someone told me once that he doesn't hire people to keep them. He hires people so he doesn't have to manage them anymore. He wants to move them up. He doesn't want them to stay Like, he wants to see them move forward. The goal is to get to a point where where they they're able to leave send them away.

Speaker 2: 14:00

No, I mean, it is, it is but it's also sad.

Speaker 1: 14:08

It's sad, but yes, that is the goal, and some of the best managers I've had have hired people who are skilled and know how to do their jobs. So it's like a virtuous cycle where they don't have to manage, they don't have to over-manage or micromanage, because they hired people who are great at what they do and are doing their jobs and it makes them look good because, again, they knew how to put together a really good team.

Speaker 2: 14:30

Yeah, I also think to be a good manager, like you, have to be a good listener and you can't be the type of person who hates it when people disagree with them.

Speaker 1: 14:40

That makes sense.

Speaker 2: 14:41

And you should foster that and you should be proud of that. You should still follow orders, and that's not the way a healthy team should be. You can't have a healthy team if it's a dictatorship.

Speaker 1: 15:14

The fact that you do have people coming to you with creative ideas indicates that they are mentally at a place where that creativity is still flowing. And the whole part of us doing that is that I think so many years of just being batted down or that not that creativity not being encouraged got us to a point where you know that just kind of died.

Speaker 2: 15:40

And now we're doing a podcast.

Speaker 1: 15:42

We're doing a podcast. We're doing a podcast, but to me that indicates that we're like at least not fostering that burnout mindset or generating that burnout mindset with people that we manage, having that open dialogue, making sure that you're, you know, checking in with them, letting them have space and letting them have the floor.

Speaker 2: 16:01

Yeah, Agreed, yeah, agree, catering to your skill set. Because even if you have two people in the same exact role, let's say you have two deputy editors and you can have one person that is this is a total exaggeration. But let's say one person's really good at data, right? Um, they read data really well, they comment on data really well, they know how to like pull a story out of it. Then you have another person who's like terrible with data. Like they can maybe get by, but, um, they're not great.

Speaker 2: 16:56

But maybe they're really good at I don't know formatting an article really well or, like adding really cool visual elements to an article. Like even of the data you know, like maybe they don't get the data, but then, once the data person explains it to them, they're like, oh yeah, like we could visualize it in a pie chart or a graph and a venn diagram, whatever it's like. You should cater to that. And it's not like treating, it's not like I'm expecting the other person to not like grow and become better at data or become better at like visualizing, but if you have someone that's just really good at a thing, you want to foster that and like help them improve that skill set instead of focusing on like, but you don't really add any good visuals to your article, so your state.

Speaker 1: 17:49

Weaknesses don't necessarily mean that we yeah, that's just that is ascribing to one specific mindset of what people should be, not realizing that there are just some things that some people naturally aren't super great at and maybe won't ever be super great at.

Speaker 2: 18:04

Even like just starting out, when I first started out in like personal finance content. My story there is I got recruited by a company and I had an interview with the recruiter and I was like this sounds great, like, sounds like something I could do. However, like I don't have any personal finance experience, like I don't have any personal finance experience, like I don't know anything about finance, and they said they said we don't care, that's fine, we understand that we want a great editor, like what you are and you have the experience there for everything. We want that like the topic like that can be taught, personal finance can be taught and you can learn that. And I thought, okay, let's do it. And like now, here I am and I'm, I'm still doing it.

Speaker 2: 18:54

I am kind of a personal finance expert now and it's really kind of funny for me to say that out loud. I guess, but it's true, like I really am, I had to learn like really fast, but I appreciate that I guess. But it's true, like I really am, I had to learn like really fast, but I appreciate that. I guess is what I'm trying to say, because I think a lot of people hire based on like we would hire so many writers at different companies, sometimes for personal finance, and it would just be like, oh, this person is such like an excellent personal finance expert, like they know everything about investing. And then I get an article from them to edit and it's written horribly and it's not in terms everybody your everyday Jane can understand. It's in terms of yeah, just a lot of different lingo and finance buzzwords and that's not going to resonate with everybody.

Speaker 2: 19:46

We're not all personal finance experts like and that's people not understanding what actual skills, what actual skills are needed for a job and prioritizing what they think and that, yeah, that's just a hotbed for bad employee bad management cycle yeah, and for writers now, I know we want, we do want that expertise, especially in personal finance, like that's a big deal, like that's what we're looking for, um, but honestly, like if I had to choose, if they're like you have to hire a writer and you have this person who knows everything there is to know about investing, but their writing's not that great, it takes a lot of editing versus a person who's like a seasoned writer, has been writing about a variety of topics for a long time, um and and like kind of knows but isn't quite an expert. Like I would actually take the lesser expert.

Speaker 1: 20:47

Yeah, yeah. And again it's because you know, like what, what needs, what actually needs to be nurtured.

Speaker 2: 20:54

Yeah, cause again, like that can be learned. So I appreciate that. I appreciate like companies looking at the whole picture and like taking a step back instead of just being like, well, we need a person that can hit these 20 bullet points that we put on our job description and knows how to do every single one of these and knows how to use all the software we use. No, you can teach somebody that, and another point to that is personality. I think I actually had somebody tell me once and this is kind of what I think too is you can teach somebody to be a better if you are like the utmost greatest personal finance expert that to ever exist and you know everything more than anybody in the entire world. If you're going to come in and work with me on my team and be in a jerk to everybody, that's not going to fly and being a jerk to everybody.

Speaker 1: 22:09

That's not gonna fly. Get out, see ya, would you say. The burnout that you've had or that's been just building for the past, however many years, would you say that's more attributed to management or the companies like my management. Um no, not your, no your managers, not you as a manager, but like my managers or the company.

Speaker 2: 22:28

I mean because there's bad company culture. But then there's I'm good managers, but then oh, so you're talking about culture specifically, okay, so, yeah, I honestly think it's a little bit of both for me, um, but maybe more like leadership. Leadership has been, I think, a bit a bigger issue, I think, than the culture 100.

Speaker 1: 22:52

I. It's been a couple of years now, but I was at a point where I had it had been managed um for a couple years and it was the type of management where nothing was encouraged, everything was criticized, and I got so in my head, I got so down about my skill set, I got so turned around about who I was as a person, as an employee, and I I've had to be in therapy for that for a while because that really that really really messed with me. And, without sharing too much, I recently moved up at work and it's like, it's just like being haunted because it's still lurking at my corners of like.

Speaker 2: 23:37

The imposter syndrome.

Speaker 1: 23:40

I mean, I feel you feel like you tricked them, you know, because you just you're just so used to you know, you're just so used to feeling that like, well, you're not good enough, or what you give isn't good enough, and so it's taken me a few years to learn that what I actually do bring to the table is wanted, is valued and valued well, because you haven't had a manager that, like, has told you that you know.

Speaker 1: 24:04

That's the problem I ugly cried all day yesterday, all day yesterday, because one it was just having someone say value and and actually just the word good. The word good was said and then their boss, my boss's boss, messaged me and used the word lucky and I just lost it again. Yeah, and that's so sad to me, like that makes me so sad it is. It's like that you should be able to be 100 confident and be like, yeah, I am, but again the last four years of horrible management that's completely stripped away any confidence, any you know any, just feeling, just yeah confidence, any confidence in my, even though objectively you know, but you're just so turned around. I think a lot of that might be like crossbred with being late diagnosed but you just spend so long in your head like what's wrong with me? Trying to fix.

Speaker 2: 25:04

It's like a version of ptsd, like because you've been constantly just told yeah, especially early on in my career. That's all it was, was just like you're doing this wrong.

Speaker 2: 25:16

You're doing this wrong yep and it was never like oh wow, you did this so right, this is so awesome, let's celebrate it. Um, so then you're just like in. You're in like constant emergency mode where you're like I just lost my train of thought. You're in constant emergency mode where you feel like all you're doing is just trying not to mess up. Right, you're like, okay, I just don't want to. Yeah, trying to, I just don't want to. Yeah, trying to hold it together. Don't want to mess up, because then I'm going to get yelled at.

Speaker 1: 25:50

It's the yelling at. And again, I think we mentioned earlier it's like an abusive boyfriend, but it's literally just like waiting, waiting to quote, get yelled at. And we're goddamn adults, we're're 39 years old, we should not be afraid of quote being yelled at. It's work. Yeah, you shouldn't feel like I'm in trouble that's it took.

Speaker 2: 26:12

It took a while for me to not build up this crazy anxiety when I would see a message from a certain person, or a manager or a leader, um, because typically that meant all right. What happened now? What did I do now? What did I mess up?

Speaker 1: 26:28

Yes.

Speaker 2: 26:29

And that's what a terrible way to, I don't know. I just like if everybody would just understand that like people who report to you, people who you manage like aren't lemmings, they're actual human beings that have feelings and, like I know, it's not like you know, keep it professional, like it's not that. It's not like about keeping it professional, it's about understanding that this isn't just like what you say and what you do doesn't really have like a huge effect, but like like we're human beings alissa said it like like good management is about keeping the humanity yeah and valuing it exactly, and I, yeah, no, I just like I feel that so much I don't even know what else to say.

Speaker 1: 27:19

I feel like you said it perfectly well, and I know we've talked about kind of our whole management style being built on the backs of bad managers. It's so funny because I'll message one of my writers like, hey, do you have a second to talk? It is about this, and I just like automatically over explain so they know and so they don't have to, because I just want to make sure they're being communicated with in a way that I know negates negates panic. And they could not even have thought anything of it when I went hey, do you have a second? Because I'm just so conditioned to know that you know what?

Speaker 2: 28:00

I would say oh, I was just gonna say I didn't mean to interrupt you. Um, you know what I like to do? I like to flip that around like on my managers and I'll drop like a um hey, do you have a few seconds to chat? And it's hilarious because they always respond like yeah, what do you want to talk about?

Speaker 1: 28:19

are you quitting?

Speaker 2: 28:20

please don't quit like to keep them on edge, you know.

Speaker 1: 28:25

Keep them guessing. Keep them guessing or just, oh God, yeah, no, it's so. Yeah, so it's over communicating. But because I want to make sure they feel safe, like safety, yeah, Not necessarily in their position, because the economy, you know everything is terrible.

Speaker 2: 28:45

Well, and that's not in your control.

Speaker 1: 28:46

You know, I just mean like same with the person who is in charge of them, and that's something I think does not cross the mind of most of the people I've worked for. Yeah, because then a lot of it is like driving the bus over whoever is underneath you if it's going to come between you and them 100 percent um, I was going to look at chat because I feel like we've missed a lot.

Speaker 2: 29:12

Uh, someone who disagrees with you can help you grow. Yes, listening is very important for managers and teams. I'm a bit nitpicky and I like digging into things. For a while I wondered why my manager kept putting me on specific projects, and then I realized that she was putting me on detailed oriented tasks. I never thought that's what I would be doing, but I actually enjoy it, so she leveraged that part of me.

Speaker 2: 29:40

Yeah, that's great, that's that's. Yeah, that's what we're saying is like you really just kind of lean into people's strengths instead of just being like you need to do this better. And I'm not saying like I don't right, everybody has something to improve, that's fine. But I'm just saying like overall, and that's like how you're gonna have have such like a good team. Like you take a person's strength and just lean into it and, I don't know, foster that. And then you have all these people who, like have these awesome strengths that are great for your team and they're like 100, you know, like like they came in, maybe they were like 70 with that thing and most people are 30, and then you fostered that and yeah, and that just helps the other thing I've learned about good managers actually working in my most recent job and working with my co-workers.

Speaker 1: 30:39

Who's a manager the best managers are constantly worrying if they're being a good manager or not. Like she's so composed and I I look up to her so much as a manager because but then talking with her one-on-one and finding out that, like she's constantly making sure what she's doing is correct, is correct, is ethical, is, and knowing that she's having like this internal, not not lack of confidence, but just checking in and making sure and a constant ensuring that what she's doing is the kindest but the correct thing, and making sure that you know she's acting according to her own values and remembering the humanity. And I so appreciate that she is constantly looking for ways to to improve as a manager, even if she doesn't need to. She's just, she's not, she's not reliant Like I'm sure I'm fine. She's always making sure and always just checking in with herself.

Speaker 2: 31:34

But why is that? Because she said well also, but she's because she's.

Speaker 2: 31:39

I just said what did I just say? I was like, what did I just say? That was another thing one of my managers used to do, by the way, that I had told Rebecca about is she would tell us to do something and then we'd have like a question about it and we'd say like, oh, but what about in this situation? And she'd just go what did I just say? And now I can laugh about it. It was miserable then, but now it's really funny. What a terrible human being. What a miserable human being. What a terrible human being. What did I?

Speaker 1: 32:09

just say I don't want to be this person. Startups the mom, but also management is really similar to parenting in that you have full-ass people you are in charge of, have their own thoughts and feelings, and that's something that I think a lot of parents aren't aware of with kids. But, like kids are their own person and they are going to disagree and they are, and if you're even close to a good parent, you're not gonna bully that out of them. You're gonna have to work with them. They if they do disagree with something or if they don't want to do something, and a lot of those skills transfer over to management yeah, honestly, that really resonates with me, like I have two cats and I feel like it's yeah, please don't shit in the copier, just Tom Get down Spray bottle.

Speaker 2: 33:07

Oh my God. Now I just want us to make like an animation video about like managing cats.

Speaker 1: 33:15

Do you know what I mean? Like it's just I didn't realize how much crossover there would be. And I mean you can. You can be a great parent or a great manager without being a parent. But just just again, again. I keep going back to alissa saying the humanity, just okay, these are, these are all people, and sometimes they're not going to do the thing. Now what?

Speaker 2: 33:32

also and like everybody makes mistakes sometimes, like I remember, like I I had one manager who, I'm sorry to say it, but like did nothing, literally like did no work. All they did was like they would write really long emails to us all the time, just like ridiculously lengthy, like I never thought I would say this, but it would be like it's like that email could have been a meeting, like just a quick five minute meeting, and some of it was just like information we didn't even know or like. And this is like an editor too. So it's just, it's just like edit yourself, dude, edit yourself down a little bit.

Speaker 1: 34:15

This is you're very verbose um, like he did, he think like the length of his emails meant that he was doing a good job I think they thought that I don't know, I'm really not sure, but because they were doing nothing else besides that like there would be.

Speaker 2: 34:33

They would literally like go over every live article on the site themselves and once in a while and it wasn't often, but like it happened, like it happens, like there would. But like it happened, like it happens, like there would be like a tiny error, like oh, that comma shouldn't have been there or I don't know, just like tiny little little little things and that, of course, like as an editor, I never want to happen and like that's my job to make sure they don't. But, um, they would come to me and say I found an error in this article. Oh, what, what is it? Well, you had a comma before because and it shouldn't be here, and I'd be like, oh, sorry, like uh god.

Speaker 1: 35:18

What will the readers think?

Speaker 2: 35:20

yeah, oh sorry. Like uh, did you fix it? No, I thought you could go in and fix it. So, like I had to go in and fix it, even though they caught it and didn't fix it right away, and then it would be like all right now, what are you going to do to make sure this doesn't happen again? And that infuriated me Because, like, all I could say to that is like what do you mean? This was just a small mistake. Like mistakes happen, yeah. But like all I could say to that is like what do you mean? This was just a small mistake. Like mistakes happen, yeah. But like what are you going to do to make sure these mistakes like stop happening?

Speaker 1: 35:54

It's like not, yeah like not be human, like I don't be a robot. Panic Every time I hit publish. Just panic internally that I'm going to get another message from you.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Yeah, that is another thing. Yeah, In our line of work, especially like or hitting that publish button still, for me is a lot like oh God.

Speaker 1: 36:12

Or the gaslighting of we're going to pile your plate so high that and then, if I miss something because I was frantically trying to go, you missed this. Why would you miss this, like what's happening, are you? I'm gonna?

Speaker 2: 36:25

paying attention, then I'm only gonna put out 50 of what you're wanting me to, so I can focus on quality and, like people, hire you for a reason but they hire you for a reason.

Speaker 1: 36:37

And then again going back to managers who are threatened by you they hire you because you're great, but then they spend the whole time making you feel like you're not. Yeah, I don't understand. I just don't understand the why behind that and I wish somebody could tell me the way that made sense. I just don't understand hiring someone because they're good and then proceeding to slowly destroy yeah, some people, I think, just like really thrive on that.

Speaker 2: 37:03

Like, is it, should we just be okay with it? Because it's like, well, we'll let them be miserable to us because at least they're not going out and like murdering people, because obviously there's some sort of sociopathic serial killer, so at least they're just being mean to us and not murdering people. It's like we're just taking one for the team.

Speaker 1: 37:24

But no, it's true, it's like we're just taking one for the team. But no, it's true, it's like, would they be serial killers, otherwise? That's what I'm thinking. The amount of glee, utter glee, yeah, but the amount of times I heard oh, I mean, you're really close, but like, and just that noise of like well, yeah, like that inhale hired me because I'm good at this, it's okay.

Speaker 2: 37:47

It's okay if I'm good if you wanted to hire someone that you could like bully, so glad I didn't work with him. I always say like maybe this is a little kumbaya. Um, I feel like I always say kumbaya, but I honestly just think that if everybody kind of went through life literally treating others how they want to be treated, things would just be so much better. I honestly do. I try to always be kind to people unless, like I like you, then I'm like really mean to you and I'll bully you. It's. It's about just being kind to other people and understanding that, again, we're all human beings, we all make mistakes. We all deserve kindness. We all deserve. I mean, I guess that is kumbaya, but that's truly how I feel and I think that would just make the world a better place and then in turn make make managers better. But I know that's not anything that's no, because people are.

Speaker 1: 38:50

These are expendable very good people who spend so much time grinding down really talented people who then spend 170 dollars for every therapy session because they can't put on pants anymore in the morning, because they're just so dead inside yeah, raise our hands. And also here's the other thing that blows my mind the people who do that are usually not like at the very top oh no but it's.

Speaker 1: 39:26

Who do you think all this is for? Like you're not the one making the money at the top, so whatever. Are you just hoping to get up there by emulating them? Is this how they are? That's what I don't understand. Like if you don't really have skin in the game sucking up.

Speaker 2: 39:40

What is it? Say what they want to hear. Say what they want to hear and eventually you might get up there, but like you won't, because they also are like we know you're not a really good manager, so we'll never make you like an actual leader in the company. But we will, however, give you just a couple little direct reports to boss around and share our edicts with, and it is a cycle that has been going on since I've been working.

Speaker 1: 40:07

It sucks because you finally start to get back out underneath it and start to kind of give confidence again when you're given a good manager.

Speaker 2: 40:13

And then something happens and you have to go to a different manager or you're laid off and then you have to go to a company and then you try again so all that, like all that energy and creativity and confidence, you've started rebuilding just well and then everything's a gamble right, like that's why a lot of people are like I don't want to apply for more jobs, because it's I mean, obviously there are many reasons, especially now, but like what if it's? You know what? If it's worse there? Or because people are on their best behavior, typically in interviews.

Speaker 1: 40:50

Talk about sociopaths.

Speaker 2: 40:51

By the way, if you have that great of an interview, there's something wrong god, and also people who just interview like very, very well, but are just horrible people again, but they're like failing up, you know. Yes, now I feel like I'm just like bitching, but honestly, no, but it's true.

Speaker 1: 41:09

There are so many parallels between like abuse and bad boyfriends and bad management. Yes, no, it's not complaining and also I think it's just acknowledging out loud that we recognize the management we've been under and we're no longer sorry, gonna think that's the norm and accept it. Because, again, I don't have skin in the game. I'm not making millions of dollars. I don't want people underneath me to be miserable. I don't want to be miserable. I refuse to accept bad management and I won't do it anymore.

Speaker 2: 41:36

Yeah, I think I think you and I have just kind of decided that in the worst of situations, we're just going to make sure that the people under us aren't utterly miserable and utterly burnt out, because that's like the only thing that we and maybe not, maybe not all the time, maybe not in all lines of work, but I know, with what we do, at least we do have some say for our direct reports.

Speaker 2: 42:03

As far as that goes, it's those people that I think we really need to foster and hold up and encourage, to help them build confidence. Um, I used to joke at like a couple companies ago that I worked at. I got to like build, build some teams at different companies, and so I would like bring in people that I had previously worked with that I like knew did a, did a great job, very smart, and also just like great people all together, good culture fits, good culture fits. And I had joked that I was like slowly building because I realized that, like everybody that I was hiring was like an introvert, and so I'd always say, like I'm just like slowly building my introvert army and we're going to like come up, we're going to rise from the ashes and, I don't know, impress the socks off you.

Speaker 1: 42:54

I don't know what I thought, but you had them follow you because you were a great manager and you built a great team, and you've had people follow you from job to job to work under you again because of the teams you build and the people you foster professional relationships and growth with yeah, oh, but that's what I was gonna say is is like it is about confidence and even as an introvert because that's something like I personally have struggled with a lot, because I think at first never thought I could be a manager because all the managers I saw were very peacock.

Speaker 2: 43:28

Anytime they did any little thing that like something that I would do like every day and not even blink an eye at. They would be like group chat, all team meeting, like hey guys, I just want to let you know that I did this and I made this process, doc, and blah, blah, blah and I do realize that has hurt me a little bit, because I'm not like that, I don't. I kind of feel like it's cringe and it's really not, because unfortunately, like that's part of you kind of have to do that or else people don't necessarily know what you're doing. Like it's kind of like just invisible work, like don't do invisible work. I am always doing invisible work and I'm really trying to like get out of that and do a better job of making everything visible.

Speaker 2: 44:10

But as an introvert, especially like it's hard, like I don, I don't first of all, I don't just think about it. Sometimes I don't even think, oh, I should make sure my manager knows I did this. Or like, oh, maybe I should talk about this on the next all team meeting. But it's just hard. Actually our so our friend kate that was the hr director for the job where we met she's an introvert as well and I know, like her and I bonded I think her and I bonded because we're also both like Midwest girlies, so we bonded on that a little bit at the very beginning but also, just like she's such a kind person and she is so like empathetic, that has been even close to her caliber, like not even close.

Speaker 1: 44:55

Human. She put it was 100% about a human.

Speaker 2: 44:59

Right, right. But we started talking about being introverts and, like you know, I'm not a director. I wasn't a director. So, like, looking at her as a director, she just kind of started talking to me about how she really thinks. Like introverts get like the short end of the stick too, and because they're not out there saying like oh, look what I did, or like, yeah, we're the ones in meetings that were told like, oh, we're going to start this new process, this is how, like what we're going to do, blah, blah, any questions. We're the ones that are like we don't have any questions in the meeting, so it looks like we don't care, or it looks like we just fully agree with it. But I'm processing and it's not until like I'm off the meeting and I can sit there with myself and think about it that I'm going to have these questions and that I'm going to like fully, like kind of comprehend, like what's happening. And there was a book that she had me get. I'm trying to remember what it was called. I'll put it in the show notes.

Speaker 2: 45:59

Um, it was basically like introverts as leaders, like the introverted leader, the quiet leader, something like that um leadership right yeah, yeah, and it was actually so good and I'm that, you know, I got to find out, like about kind of like her, kind of like her path as that, and like just being coming confident and back to what I was talking about so long ago. I'm finally going to get there. I'm sorry everybody, I'm very talkative today apparently is that a lot of the people I manage are introverts not all of them, of course, but a lot of the people I manage are. I need to know. Oh no, I'm sorry, I let them know if another team does something wrong and they have to kind of like and they don't even want to like speak up and say that, and a lot of it, I think, has to do with the systemic feeling like we can't speak up because no one cares about our opinion, because we're not a manager and it doesn't matter what we think or like what we say.

Speaker 2: 47:29

So I do always tell them like, hey, I'm super comfortable speaking up, I'm super comfortable asking questions, I'm super comfortable doing this. So if you ever need me to go to bat for you or if you're asking somebody for something and they are repeatedly not doing it for you and I need to jump in there and say yo, what's going on here? My editor has asked for this the last two weeks and nothing but even just initially like if they need me to jump in there, do it I will. However, my goal is to encourage them to get a little outside of their comfort zone so that they can start building the confidence to doing that on their own.

Speaker 1: 48:11

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:12

Because that confidence, I think, is really key to making your employees feel like they do have a say and that they they are in control and they do, they do matter. It's not just like do this and shut up, you know Right.

Speaker 1: 48:31

Yeah, I guess all of that just to say, I think, like encouraging that confidence yeah, and not seeing that confidence, as I think a lot of time bad managers, or managers who are threatened, are afraid that well, are they going to promote me to take my like? Are they going to be promoted to my job? Are they going to pinch me out my job? Are they going to inch me out? Which, no, usually no, usually no, usually no, usually no, usually no. But again, there's just not a whole lot of fostering that mindset, it's more just like shut it down. And again, that's the difference between good and bad managers is knowing that confident employees are not a threat. They're not.

Speaker 2: 49:16

Yeah, However overconfident employees.

Speaker 1: 49:20

Did we have anything else? You know we had that we wanted to touch base on.

Speaker 2: 49:27

Oh, I don't think so. I think we actually kind of like covered everything we really wanted to talk about. I was going to go to chat a little bit, though, yeah um, I was going to ask.

Speaker 1: 49:38

That was my next question is like can we see what? Yeah, um, let's see, I don't even know where we talked about because, like I've just, we've just been running our mouths, um managers and companies that act like giving you a job is a favor that is above you and that you have to be eternally grateful and again this goes back to that abusive relationship cycle when really they're benefiting because of you. Yeah, they're the ones who are benefiting but they're like you need us.

Speaker 2: 50:08

You know you need us for a paycheck. Yeah, yeah, it's true, but also yes, yes. Everyone makes mistakes. Is middle management actually a rehabilitation system for serial killers? Honestly, though Right, it's like literally like now. From now on, listeners, every time a manager is being an asshole to you, just think that they could be out murdering a bunch of people right now. So you're just taking one collectively for the team.

Speaker 1: 50:44

Wow, you have found the virtue in bad management, amy.

Speaker 2: 50:49

Yeah, I'm just, I should I should. You solved it. I should we're done, we're done, we're done here.

Speaker 1: 50:57

We don't need to have.

Speaker 2: 50:58

I should start like letting them know instead of not verbally abusing me, keep mentally abusing me.

Speaker 1: 51:04

I really want to not have the energy to wash my hair in the evenings because I'm so sad. I'll just be like I'm doing it for the greater good. Wow, this is our first official and less official episode. I guess.

Speaker 2: 51:16

Well, guys, it's been fun I'm going to call my therapist.

Speaker 1: 51:19

Tell her we've solved everything. I'm good now.

Speaker 2: 51:22

Rebecca's going to get committed, and I'm going to go break her out, so that's what I was going to say. Though, too, this is way earlier on, when we were talking about, like mental health and physical health. First of all, people should take into consideration their employees' mental health, and they really don't seem to, and obviously, I really think that's typically. I mean, it can be different for disabled people, but if I'm so bad at this, I just keep losing my train of thought.

Speaker 1: 51:51

I didn't take my medication today either.

Speaker 2: 51:53

Take your meds. People Take your meds. They don't even take mental health into consideration. It can affect your mental health, which people don't even really look at, but then it can also, like in turn, affect your physical health. It can make you physically ill and can cause you to not be able to work because of it, even like mental and physical health, or it can cause you to not be able to be obviously not be able to be your best self. How are you supposed to be your best self when you're literally just getting scolded every day and not like supported?

Speaker 1: 52:33

yeah, I don't want to end this on like a yeah, that's not that face note everybody, tell us about your, your favorite manager.

Speaker 1: 52:41

Go ahead, rebecca one of my writers ran her first marathon and I was just so genuinely excited for her and I loved hearing about it, I loved talking about it. Uh, one of our last names before she ran is like what is your outfit? And I realized that I don't. I can't remember the last time I had a conversation like that with previous managers at other jobs, just conversations about you as a person and stuff you're doing or stuff that's, you know, interesting to you.

Speaker 2: 53:11

Outside of work.

Speaker 1: 53:13

Outside of work Again to to you Outside of work, outside of work again. To that humanity. I realized that my manager does this. What are things like just genuine asking about things that don't pertain to work but just matter to me. And I realized, like that, without meaning to, that example has been like that's something I've just kind of folded into my management style. It's just again. Whatever the opposite of professional herpes is having a good manager that's just herpes.

Speaker 2: 53:44

That's just herpes. No okay.

Speaker 1: 53:46

Having a manager who, like who's setting a good example, so good that you don't realize that that's what's happening and that you naturally just kind of start taking that on again. That's that, to me, is the mark of like somebody who who is good at this. Also, all the managers I've known who are not terrible have been in therapy. I don't know if that's a coincidence, but I'm fairly certain there's something there I don't think I have ever been.

Speaker 2: 54:14

I've never had a manager that I know whether or not they're in therapy. My direct reports definitely know I'm in therapy. I think Don't see me as just like a number. See me for me and like listen to me, support me, uplift me and help me grow. Criticism is fine, but let's talk about it in a healthy way, where we're gonna work on it, where it makes sense, not just like, yes, what are you gonna do to make sure you never, ever, make any sort of little tiny mistake ever in your life? That's not a way to work on it, just like do, do what you can and I mean I think, yeah, your employees so asking too I mean, you have a good manager and you're managing people just asking like, hey, what can I do?

Speaker 2: 55:04

what can I do to make your life easier? Right? What can I take off your plate? What can I?

Speaker 1: 55:10

because that's a good manager, not afraid to jump like something. Our director edits stories in a pinch. Yeah, that's a good, same manager. Same. He's not not thinking you're above it or that's not my job. Again, not having that ego or not thinking like this is beneath me.

Speaker 2: 55:27

That shows up in a huge way for your employees and, again, like you said, just like caring and like asking about their life. I think there are some people who just don't want to talk about personal anything ever at work, so you do want to make sure that you're not. I literally will ask people. I'll be like oh hey, how's your kid doing? And then, like they'll answer me maybe and I'll just say like, and I just want to make sure, like, is it okay if I check in with you about your kids, your family, once in a while, or do you not like that? Because, like, I genuinely want to know, because obviously, if it's uncomfortable or that's not something they want to share, like I'm not going to ask it, it's fine. Yeah, communication, that's it, I guess communication.

Speaker 1: 56:08

but good managers ask how you prefer to communicate that's.

Speaker 2: 56:12

That's actually one of the things I was going to talk about earlier, but I never got to it. Of course, um was that. I do ask that of all, like people that are new to being under me. I said I. I actually say how do you like to be managed?

Speaker 2: 56:27

spoiler alert no one has said micro, please no one has said micro, but some people do like a little more, a little bit of hand holding and like not in a bad way besides, like a little more accountability or just kind of just just keeping them accountable or checking in.

Speaker 2: 56:44

Yeah they like to be like checked in with more and like other people are like, just don't check in with me, I'll like let you know if I need something kind of deal, like. So I think that's really important and like to your point too yeah, how do you prefer? I like to ask people that are newly managing me. How do you prefer I contact you, do you? Would you rather I send a Slack message? Would you rather an email? Do you want me to do a quick call? Do you want me to hold everything until our one-on-one and then bring it up?

Speaker 1: 57:14

are one-on-one and then bring it up. And to your point about introverts too, I think that's a good thing to ask, because when you do manage extroverts and you realize that they do like to talk to people and they prefer if you check in with them, that wouldn't come naturally to me, yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:24

And some people prefer to work on projects on their own. It's just like yeah, just tell me, let's get on a meeting and go over what the project entails, I'll let you know. If I have any questions, I'm going to go do it by. And some people are like, like I'm more of a visual learner, like, can we like workshop something on a video conference call, or can we just sit on a meeting and talk it out? Can we just sit on a meeting and co-work together, just so I have somebody there with me? That's a big thing you and I do together and that's something. I've even done that with some of my direct reports before because they thought that would be useful. And I'm like, hell, yeah, because that helps me too.

Speaker 1: 58:04

Well, cheers to the good managers.

Speaker 2: 58:07

And here's to the bad manager.

Speaker 1: 58:11

Always finding out that the manager who made you think you were shit turns out to be shit and other people recognize it and they get their comeuppance. If that was a flavor, I would want that. If that feeling of learning that was a flavor, I would want to eat it, to be drenched in that smell, to just wear it.

Speaker 2: 58:31

That is just the best feeling we're good managers, but that doesn't mean we're not petty as fuck, because please believe, we are still petty, so petty, all right guys lovely seeing you, lovely chatting with you all.

Speaker 1: 58:49

We look forward to seeing you next time. Thank you again for joining us yeah, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 2: 58:53

We'll see you next week.

Speaker 1: 58:57

Bye guys.

Speaker 2: 58:58

Bye. The Burnout Collective is hosted by me, Jamie.

Speaker 1: 59:02

Young and me, Rebecca McCracken. You can find all our episodes plus show notes at burnoutcollectivecom.

Speaker 2: 59:09

Follow the Discord link on our website to join the Burnout community. You can also find us on TikTok and Instagram.

Speaker 1: 59:16

If you're interested in being a guest on a future episode or have questions or feedback, you can email us at podcast at burnoutcollectivecom.